Is chivalry really dead? :(

delicious_cocktail

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

I have known guys that are seem great in public and are downright scumbags to their children and spouses.

Zackly. Because putting on a act does not mean you're a good person.

Chivalry is meaningless. I help people when I can and how I can. Chivalry is not synonymous - historically nor contemporarily - with being a good person, being polite, being respectful, being well-mannered, etc.

Toblave

And protective? I'm sorry but how am I supposed to feel protective towards someone I have no emotional bond with? Anyway, what I question is the logic behind going that "extra mile" JUST for women but not for other men. I see no logic behind it or reason. I see it as nothing more than putting them up on a pedestal.

I see no reason not to "put them on a pedestal" until they knock themselves off and then it still wouldn't change my behavior. I guess I feel it's my prerogative to offer help and protect those around me.

Soccermavrick

I think the term Chivalry is morphing. (Would you say watered down, maybe.) Because the old term where guys hold certain roles, and do certain things like opening doors and what not cannot exist within a world of Women's Equality as it is defined today. Hence, Chivalry as most people think has taken some major blows, but I do not think it is from Men not knowing how, or forgetting to be Chivalrous, but women's reactions to it. There is a hypocritcy in today's world. For a Equality to exist and a man to be Chivalrous towards every woman, means the men are fools, and that was never the point.

Chivalry in a sense came to be in a world where the Men ruled the world, and women the homes. But to show equality and importance towards women, men because chivalrous. Well now women want equality everywhere, so what is the point of chivalry, for the men to be walked on?

contingencyplan

And protective? I'm sorry but how am I supposed to feel protective towards someone I have no emotional bond with? Anyway, what I question is the logic behind going that "extra mile" JUST for women but not for other men. I see no logic behind it or reason. I see it as nothing more than putting them up on a pedestal.

I see no reason not to "put them on a pedestal" until they knock themselves off and then it still wouldn't change my behavior. I guess I feel it's my prerogative to offer help and protect those around me.

So question then. Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal? And why do only women deserve your protection?

Toblave

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

I have known guys that are seem great in public and are downright scumbags to their children and spouses.

Unfortunately that's true, you can't always judge someone on a single aspect of their behavior.

Loss4TheWin

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

Well said :-)

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

To sum it up - men are physically stronger than women. Fact of nature. A man and a woman of equal weight are not, statistically, any where near equal strength. In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

Thankfully, that's not the case in our society, because chivalry paved the way for equality by encouraging men (who were at one point, the only beings with any power) to go out of their way to help the weak. Through their tireless efforts, chivalrous men (and resourceful women) removed the inequality of strong vs. weak, male vs. female, in our society by providing support to the weak and revering them as more than mere property. Men may not need to fight as hard these days, but the small gestures they make of opening doors and showing an additional level of courtesy to women is a reminder that they are still on board with keeping things the way they are. That even though they may be physically powerful enough to hold us back, they will use that strength to lift us up instead. It's like the rainbow after the flood, it's a reminder that they wont let things backslide, that they will continue to respect women and allow them to flourish.

What is so exciting about most civilized societies today, is that Chivalry has been so successful in its march towards eradicating inequality that women have more opportunities than ever. It's not uncommon today to see a woman as a doctor, lawyer, judge, police officer, marine, etc. Chivalry once applied only to men because men were the only creatures with any kind of power. Today, women are in positions of power and able to be chivalrous. They can, and do, come to the rescue of the weak, including other women that are still being put down in other societies. It's a (mostly) wonderful time that we live in.

DamePiglet

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

Well said :-)

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

To sum it up - men are physically stronger than women. Fact of nature. A man and a woman of equal weight are not, statistically, any where near equal strength. In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

Thankfully, that's not the case in our society, because chivalry paved the way for equality by encouraging men (who were at one point, the only beings with any power) to go out of their way to help the weak. Through their tireless efforts, chivalrous men (and resourceful women) removed the inequality of strong vs. weak, male vs. female, in our society by providing support to the weak and revering them as more than mere property. Men may not need to fight as hard these days, but the small gestures they make of opening doors and showing an additional level of courtesy to women is a reminder that they are still on board with keeping things the way they are. That even though they may be physically powerful enough to hold us back, they will use that strength to lift us up instead. It's like the rainbow after the flood, it's a reminder that they wont let things backslide, that they will continue to respect women and allow them to flourish.

What is so exciting about most civilized societies today, is that Chivalry has been so successful in its march towards eradicating inequality that women have more opportunities than ever. It's not uncommon today to see a woman as a doctor, lawyer, judge, police officer, marine, etc. Chivalry once applied only to men because men were the only creatures with any kind of power. Today, women are in positions of power and able to be chivalrous. They can, and do, come to the rescue of the weak, including other women that are still being put down in other societies. It's a (mostly) wonderful time that we live in.

like.

ItsABadger

Definitely not, don't lose hope

contingencyplan

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

Well said :-)

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

To sum it up - men are physically stronger than women. Fact of nature. A man and a woman of equal weight are not, statistically, any where near equal strength. In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

Thankfully, that's not the case in our society, because chivalry paved the way for equality by encouraging men (who were at one point, the only beings with any power) to go out of their way to help the weak. Through their tireless efforts, chivalrous men (and resourceful women) removed the inequality of strong vs. weak, male vs. female, in our society by providing support to the weak and revering them as more than mere property. Men may not need to fight as hard these days, but the small gestures they make of opening doors and showing an additional level of courtesy to women is a reminder that they are still on board with keeping things the way they are. That even though they may be physically powerful enough to hold us back, they will use that strength to lift us up instead. It's like the rainbow after the flood, it's a reminder that they wont let things backslide, that they will continue to respect women and allow them to flourish.

What is so exciting about most civilized societies today, is that Chivalry has been so successful in its march towards eradicating inequality that women have more opportunities than ever. It's not uncommon today to see a woman as a doctor, lawyer, judge, police officer, marine, etc. Chivalry once applied only to men because men were the only creatures with any kind of power. Today, women are in positions of power and able to be chivalrous. They can, and do, come to the rescue of the weak, including other women that are still being put down in other societies. It's a (mostly) wonderful time that we live in.

We live in a world where physical strength doesn't count for much anymore. Not in the grand scheme of things. And I fail to see how physical strength has any bearing on the whole matter. And guess what. Those "little" gestures? More often than not he does them because he was simply programmed to from childhood. Like a machine. Usually doesn't understand why he does it. Just does, out of habit. Simple habit and programming.

There is no correlation I can see between putting a woman on a pedestal that shows I'm on board with keeping things as equal. In fact, I see it as being opposite. Doing these things for a woman, but not for other men, is anything but equality. It's equality when I would do it for men, too (which I would).

delicious_cocktail

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

wheird

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

I have known guys that are seem great in public and are downright scumbags to their children and spouses.

Zackly. Because putting on a act does not mean you're a good person.

Chivalry is meaningless. I help people when I can and how I can. Chivalry is not synonymous - historically nor contemporarily - with being a good person, being polite, being respectful, being well-mannered, etc.

I agree. Even in times where chivalry was a social code, there were scumbags. Holding a door, being polite, etc can be part of being a good person, but is by far not the sole measure.

wheird

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

delicious_cocktail

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

BobOki

To sum it up - men are physically stronger than women. Fact of nature. A man and a woman of equal weight are not, statistically, any where near equal strength. In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

Thankfully, that's not the case in our society, because chivalry paved the way for equality by encouraging men (who were at one point, the only beings with any power) to go out of their way to help the weak. Through their tireless efforts, chivalrous men (and resourceful women) removed the inequality of strong vs. weak, male vs. female, in our society by providing support to the weak and revering them as more than mere property. Men may not need to fight as hard these days, but the small gestures they make of opening doors and showing an additional level of courtesy to women is a reminder that they are still on board with keeping things the way they are. That even though they may be physically powerful enough to hold us back, they will use that strength to lift us up instead. It's like the rainbow after the flood, it's a reminder that they wont let things backslide, that they will continue to respect women and allow them to flourish.

What is so exciting about most civilized societies today, is that Chivalry has been so successful in its march towards eradicating inequality that women have more opportunities than ever. It's not uncommon today to see a woman as a doctor, lawyer, judge, police officer, marine, etc. Chivalry once applied only to men because men were the only creatures with any kind of power. Today, women are in positions of power and able to be chivalrous. They can, and do, come to the rescue of the weak, including other women that are still being put down in other societies. It's a (mostly) wonderful time that we live in.

This is a very long winded repost of the same points we already debunked. Physical strength has no bearing on anything whatsoever anymore, and even in the far past a woman that could hold her own was treated like a man (see famous war women) included executions. Your main argument is that men being chivalrous paved the way for equality, but not only is that a huge blow to woman's suffrage and them earning their equality, but it is actual the exact opposite. Glad that you are equal only by the good grace of men allowing you to be off our own kindness and care for you, not at all by your own actions and strengths. I would love to know what world you think this is ok in.

Cranquistador

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

*slaps face with glove*

delicious_cocktail

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

*slaps face with glove*

wheird

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

*throws a gauntlet at your feet* PICK IT UP!!!!

Toblave

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

wheird

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

*slaps face with glove*

Now we are talking!

JenniBaby85

Yes. It was murdered.