Is chivalry really dead? :(

lauren3101

Once again respecting people and being polite to them is not chivalry, it's being polite and should be done to everyone regardless of sex. Chivalry is the offensive and sexist act of doing exceptional acts to women that you are not expected to do to men in the name of the weaker sex who can't do for themselves. Just like we no longer stone people who cheat on their mates, we also no longer need to "protect" the weaker sex who is no longer the "weaker" sex and fights right along side men in battle.

Time to drop the special attention for WOMEN only and start doing it for everyone by everyone. Let the sexism end.

I would like to point out that stoning cheating women does still happen in some countries.

You have again shoved chivalry and equality together. The two may have gone hand in hand a long time ago, but now it is just being a gentleman. My partner does things for me that he would not do for a man, such as holding the door open for me or carrying my shopping, not because he thinks I am weaker and cannot do it myself. He does it because he cares about and respects me.

I reiterate what I said before:

It often sounds to me that men that dislike chivalry because women fought for equality hold a grudge against that equality, but that’s just my opinion.

csuhar

TL/DR, but the first question I always have is what do you mean when you say "chivalry"? There are, believe it or not, a few variantions on the theme running around.

A challenge is that, as equality has grown, what used to be considered special, chivalrous, behavior exhibited towards women may have mixed with other mannerisms. I, for example, will hold a door open for anyone, not just a lady. It's not a matter of chivalry, but general respect.

But, if I'm dating someone, I will open the car door for her (to include going around the car to open it for her), but if it's just a female coworker riding shotgun, I don't. Similarly, if I'm at a formal dinner, I still stand up when ladies arrive at / leave the table, but I don't do it if I'm having lunch with coworkers.

So you may be looking for chivalrous behavior when the males around you are merely in "peer respect", not "charming gentleman", mode.


But another question is "do you behave in a manner that attracts a chivalrous individual"? This is a case where opposites repel and likes attract. If you're twerking in a club, or you're the kind who screams out "wooooooo!" while holding a neon-colored drink over your head, don't expect to always attract the chivalrous type. I've come across women online who bemoan the absence of chivalry, but then most of their profile pictures show them in "party girl" not "classly lady" mode. And that applies to guys, too- don't expect to meet a classy lady while you're muddin' or acting the fool. (It may still happen, just don't plan on it.)

paultireland

Chivalry is dead and women killed it.

Toblave

This is *just* my opinion, but I feel pretty strongly about it. Chivalry is mostly alive and well, and thank goodness for that. Women would be in a mess of trouble if it ever "went out of style".

Chivalry, at its core, is based on women being the weaker sex; and hate me if you want, but women *are* the (physically) weaker sex. If you've ever looked at the numbers put up by males and females in the same weight class at a powerlifting competition, there are HUGE disparities. There are exceptions to every rule, but genetically speaking, a man and a woman of equal weight are not equal in strength. Any woman that thinks she is equal in strength to her male counterpart is, statistically, incorrect.

Chivalry teaches men to be careful with women, to treat them with respect, gentleness and, above all else, to protect them and keep them from harm. Men should know that they are stronger than women, to discourage this and pretend it doesn't exist is to do both men and women a disservice.

I love that women are empowered, and they should be equal. Equality is defined as the state of being equal, especially in status, rights and opportunities. There is no reason that women should not be held equal in these areas because of a disparity in physical strength. But open your eyes. The ability to feel empowered is a result of society, and it is because of chivalry. Look at places where chivalry is not a concept and you will see women being treated as chattel, being bought and sold and traded as a commodity, being abused and treated as slaves - what you see is nature. Nature is beautiful, but also ugly - and the truth of nature is that the strong prey on the weak. In societies where it isn't ingrained in men that women are to be treated gently, protected, guarded, treated with immense respect and allowed to flourish and be equals, you see subservient women.

I would be horrified if I ever heard a woman snap at a man for opening a door for her or offering to help her carry something heavy. Yes, you can open your own door, and you are almost positively able to carry that package on your own, but every time a man offers, he is showing you that he's on board. That he's invested in protecting women, that he respects you, that he's there if you ever need him. Next time, it may not be a package or a door, next time it may be someone stronger than you trying to do you harm, and that chivalrous door-opener might be the only thing standing in the way of you and physical harm.

I agree with this also.

Loss4TheWin

You have again shoved chivalry and equality together. The two may have gone hand in hand a long time ago, but now it is just being a gentleman. My partner does things for me that he would not do for a man, such as holding the door open for me or carrying my shopping, not because he thinks I am weaker and cannot do it myself. He does it because he cares about and respects me.

I agree.

Chivalry and Equality are not mutually exclusive. Equality exists where it does now because Chivalry paved the way. If the strong weren't willing to fight for, protect and respect the weak and the subjugated, there would be no equality.

Also, chivalry extends past simple "good manners". Good manners involve saying please and thank you, holding the door open for someone behind you, saying excuse me when you accidentally bump into someone. Chivalry involves more than simply saying "excuse me", its that and more. It's seeing someone being mistreated, seeing someone struggle, or be taken advantage of or harmed and feeling it your duty to intervene. A person with impeccable manners may say "Pardon me" as they squeeze past someone getting mugged and be completely within the boundaries of pure politeness. A chivalrous person will intervene.

contingencyplan

This is *just* my opinion, but I feel pretty strongly about it. Chivalry is mostly alive and well, and thank goodness for that. Women would be in a mess of trouble if it ever "went out of style".

Chivalry, at its core, is based on women being the weaker sex; and hate me if you want, but women *are* the (physically) weaker sex. If you've ever looked at the numbers put up by males and females in the same weight class at a powerlifting competition, there are HUGE disparities. There are exceptions to every rule, but genetically speaking, a man and a woman of equal weight are not equal in strength. Any woman that thinks she is equal in strength to her male counterpart is, statistically, incorrect.

Chivalry teaches men to be careful with women, to treat them with respect, gentleness and, above all else, to protect them and keep them from harm. Men should know that they are stronger than women, to discourage this and pretend it doesn't exist is to do both men and women a disservice.

I love that women are empowered, and they should be equal. Equality is defined as the state of being equal, especially in status, rights and opportunities. There is no reason that women should not be held equal in these areas because of a disparity in physical strength. But open your eyes. The ability to feel empowered is a result of society, and it is because of chivalry. Look at places where chivalry is not a concept and you will see women being treated as chattel, being bought and sold and traded as a commodity, being abused and treated as slaves - what you see is nature. Nature is beautiful, but also ugly - and the truth of nature is that the strong prey on the weak. In societies where it isn't ingrained in men that women are to be treated gently, protected, guarded, treated with immense respect and allowed to flourish and be equals, you see subservient women.

I would be horrified if I ever heard a woman snap at a man for opening a door for her or offering to help her carry something heavy. Yes, you can open your own door, and you are almost positively able to carry that package on your own, but every time a man offers, he is showing you that he's on board. That he's invested in protecting women, that he respects you, that he's there if you ever need him. Next time, it may not be a package or a door, next time it may be someone stronger than you trying to do you harm, and that chivalrous door-opener might be the only thing standing in the way of you and physical harm.

I agree with this also.

I fail to see what the point she's making (which I agree with) has anything to do with opening doors for her or offering to help her carry something. I just don't see a link. Is she so physically weak she's unable to pen the door? Or carry the package? If not, then I'm sorry but it seems totally unrelated.

BobOki

Also, chivalry extends past simple "good manners". Good manners involve saying please and thank you, holding the door open for someone behind you, saying excuse me when you accidentally bump into someone. Chivalry involves more than simply saying "excuse me", its that and more. It's seeing someone being mistreated, seeing someone struggle, or be taken advantage of or harmed and feeling it your duty to intervene. A person with impeccable manners may say "Pardon me" as they squeeze past someone getting mugged and be completely within the boundaries of pure politeness. A chivalrous person will intervene.

I do not call that chivalry, I call that morally just, or being a decent human. Once again, chivalry is FOR WOMEN ONLY, hence why I am glad it is dying. NO act that you bring up as chivalrous should be done only to a woman, and not to a man as well, nothing. And any woman that expects to be treated one way but would not do the same for the opposite sex, well you are a shallow selfish waste of my time and I hope that you are treated as badly as you treat others. We would be much better off if we lived life more like the golden rule, doing to others as we want done to us, not acting like we are a princess who is also an equal but should be treated differently than we treat others... we have a word for that, hypocrite.

Loss4TheWin

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

delicious_cocktail

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

. . . and what is the equivalent? What do women do to show respect for men?

Toblave

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

Well said :-)

contingencyplan

If you think a man opens a door for you because he thinks you are incapable of opening a door, you are missing the plot. Trust me, he knows full well you’re capable of opening that door. What he’s doing is a small gesture, a secret handshake if you will, that has been agreed upon by generations upon generations. It's a signal that he is a chivalrous gentleman. The opportunity to slay dragons for a woman may not present itself daily, so women may forget that they are cared for and protected if it weren't for these little secret handshakes embedded in society. Every time a man opens a door for you, pulls your chair out for you, offers to help you carry something heavy, he is sending a signal of respect.

Do you think the Queen opens her own doors? Hell no. Is she capable of it? Honey, she can give birth, rule countries, declare wars, that door knob is no rubiks cube to her. People don't open doors for her or carry heavy stuff for her because she is weak or too stupid to figure it out - they do it to show respect for her. Those gestures don't put us down or hold us back, they empower us. They are a celebration of our power and position in society. We no longer have to meekly follow our men and behave like beasts of burden because we are mere chattel. Not only are we powerful equals, but men acknowledge this by jumping to our aid, opening doors for us, etc. It's a sign of reverence.

Well said :-)

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

Mr_Starr

I keep seeing a statement pop up that 'women killed chivalry'.

This is not in my experience. The greatest obstacle to chivalry is other men.

For example.

I was going downtown on our regions light rail. At a stop a young woman (early 20s) was running to catch the light rail and just made it. While she was running a group of young men that were together started making comments about her... not very complimentary comments. When on board they continued and directed comments towards her. It was easy to see that she felt threatened. So i stepped up... I offered her my seat... and then addressed the young men that they were being not being gentleman and how would they like it if someone behaved like they were to their own mother or sister. I said they should be ashamed of themselves and owe the young lady an apology. LOL -- lets just say that did not go well, but they did shut up. At least till the next stop, when they got off and started yelling profanity before the door shut.

So... then the friend (coworker) i was with said I should not have gotten involved. I thought this ironic since he is a christian who frequently laments about how world is falling apart. We of course disagreed. He even brought up how the young lady was dressed. Later he brought it up while having some lunch with some of our other male coworker. About half of them agreed with him that I should not have gotten involved.

BobOki

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

I completely agree. This is EXACTLY what I am saying, it's hypocritical behavior and it is not even hidden. Treat me one way and I will treat you completely different is NOT equality. Me opening a door for someone does not show respect, it shows I am a good person and want to do something nice. I open doors for people I dislike as well.

As stated me doing the same thing for you that should be done for everyone else, and that YOU TOO should be doing, does not mean I have reverence for you.

sassypants0923

hang on... googling "chivalry"

Salty_Sauce

My boys are both under 9 and already have it down ;-)

Toblave

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

delicious_cocktail

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

contingencyplan

Sooo putting someone up on a pedestal and showing "reverence" as you would to the queen is celebrating.... equality? And showing respect? Again, not seeing the correlation here. In fact that sounds like something totally different. I do not comprehend the idea of opening a door for someone as showing respect. For many, it is simply "programming." Programming does not indicate respect. It indicates programming. Mindless, thoughtless gestures born simply out of habit. Totally meaningless. How do they show respect?

Tell me the correlation between these behaviors and respect. Also, reverence is not respect.

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

I'm not saying you're incorrect about the holding doors for others, or about how a man treats others says volumes about him. What I question are the parts that apply specifically to women. And protective? I'm sorry but how am I supposed to feel protective towards someone I have no emotional bond with? Anyway, what I question is the logic behind going that "extra mile" JUST for women but not for other men. I see no logic behind it or reason. I see it as nothing more than putting them up on a pedestal.

wheird

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

I have known guys that are seem great in public and are downright scumbags to their children and spouses.

Toblave

I see what you're trying to say but I think you're looking at it wrong. How a man behaves towards others, especially a woman, both in public and privately speaks volumes about who he is as a man. A man who holds doors for someone is considerate, a man who opens doors, steps aside and allows a woman to enter ahead of him is both considerate and a gentleman. It's an outward respectful acknowledgement of her and a display of his protective and helpful character as a gentleman.

So a fella like that wouldn't beat his wife, right?

Ideally no one would beat anyone. Obviously, I know there are those that do and have and if your goal is to bait me and then post some link showing that someone has then bravo you are obviously very clever. But I would like to believe that it's less likely and at any rate it won't change me or my beliefs on the subject.