Need serious help with SUGAR!!!!

WendyTerry420

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

Interesting.

If I were addicted to something else in my life, would I be able to do a comparison?

Do you have access to an EEG?

jonnythan

Actually, now, looking at the list of courses, none of them seem to be about research in any capacity. Maybe epidemiology, sort of, but not really. None of them have anything to do with clinical research, publication, interpretation of results, etc. They're all simply didactic courses about learning facts, not learning anything about the actual process of science.

Rather than critiquing someone's course load, would it be too much to ask to actually quote the passages from the researchers that you think support your position? For what it's worth, I don't see people misrepresenting what the students that performed the study in question said, at least in their press release. For example, from the professor supervising the research:

"This correlated well with our behavioral results and lends support to the hypothesis that high-fat/ high sugar foods can be thought of as addictive," said Schroeder.

While I agree the fox news article isn't the best source to cite to, you aren't citing to any source whatsoever. You're simply attacking the person you disagree with and their coursework.

The research in question supports the claim that mice appear to enjoy eating food (Oreos in this case) about as much as they enjoy being picked up and injected with heroin from a needle. That's about it. It does not suggest anything about whether "sugar is addictive" or whatever, it doesn't establish or even suggest that sugar is similar to heroin, and it absolutely is not "proof" of anything at all. The very idea that a single small study, particularly in lab mice, can constitute "proof" of anything is absurd.

Also, you will note that the commentary from the researcher is from a press release. I can promise that language was not included in the journal publication because the journal would have rejected it.

OH WAIT the "research" does not appear to have been published at all. The only thing we have is a press release. No wonder Fox News didn't link to the actual publication. There isn't one.

fortally

I agree that for some people sugar "addiction" is simply a habit. However - be careful with that advice. I'm hypoglycemic. The first real diet I tried a few years ago was South Beach. I followed it to the letter and cut all carbs/sugar. I was so miserable and sick, and after my first workout I went into diabetic shock. Before that I didn't know anything about hypoglycemia, so I didn't know what was happening. I also didn't know that years of sugar abuse had created a real medical condition, and that the severe sugar cravings weren't just a bad habit. They were a reaction to my body flooding itself with insulin every time I ate. It became a self-perpetuating cycle that was so out of control that my body couldn't handle the cold turkey approach.

Anyway - live and learn. My point is that years of "sugar addiction" wasn't all mental. There was a physical reason my body was craving sugar, and going cold turkey did in fact lead to "withdrawal" in the form of insulin shock. So is "sugar addiction" a REAL addiction? Maybe not. But hypoglycemia IS, and it's a nasty business that needs to be handled carefully when trying to break the sugar "addiction."

parkscs

At the end of the day, does it really matter? If you were stupid enough to get addicted to heroine, you're going to need to suck it up and break the addiction in order to get away from it. The same with any other addictive substance, whether it's a physical or mental addiction. Even if you are somehow addicted to junk food (which I don't necessarily buy, but assuming you are), you need to put the oreo down if it's preventing you from reaching a caloric deficit. Whether you call putting the oreo down breaking an addiction, gaining some willpower or eating in moderation, it's all the same in the end.

Honestly this is a pointless argument over semantics, which is abundantly clear by people referencing the DSM. :yawn:

jonnythan

At the end of the day, does it really matter? If you were stupid enough to get addicted to heroine, you're going to need to suck it up and break the addiction in order to get away from it. The same with any other addictive substance, whether it's a physical or mental addiction. Even if you are somehow addicted to junk food (which I don't necessarily buy, but assuming you are), you need to put the oreo down if it's preventing you from reaching a caloric deficit. Whether you call putting the oreo down breaking an addiction, gaining some willpower or eating in moderation, it's all the same in the end.

Honestly this is a pointless argument over semantics, which is abundantly clear by people referencing the DSM. :yawn:

It matters a great deal, actually. When talking about health interventions, therapies, etc., whether or not something is an addiction (or whether a substance produces a dependence) is a big deal.

I can understand how it doesn't seem important to a layperson, but this is Stuff That Matters (tm).

Gemmz2014

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

Interesting.

If I were addicted to something else in my life, would I be able to do a comparison?

Do you have access to an EEG?

No, do you? Do most people?

why?

WendyTerry420

I have battled sweets all my life. It wasn't so bad when I was in my teens and eating a bag of oreos because I was skinny!! Now I'm FAT. 5'3 and 185lbs AND almost 50! I am a sugar-aholic. I love cookies, donuts, cakes, brownies, not just one piece and walk happily away either. I have to eat it until they are done.

I am worse now than I have ever been. Being a stress eater doesn't help since my job is very stressful and there is crap to eat everywhere!!

I've tried just limiting myself to a "serving" so I get my sweets without feeling deprived but it never seems to work.

Do I quit cold turkey?? Is this to be looked at as any other addiction?

Thank you all in advance.

I wouldn't say it's an addiction as much as it's a compulsion. I found that centering my meals around proteins and veggies and trying to hit my macros has left little room for sweets, so I've tapered back by focusing on OTHER, more filling foods. Unfortunately, a 400 calorie piece of cake does not fuel you as well as a meal, such as a piece of chicken, two veggies, and a fruit does. That's been my experience, anyway.

Additionally, you need to develop mind control over the cookie/brownie/cake. Don't lose a fight with a dessert. There's a MFP'er whose tag line is, "I didn't come this far to take orders from a cookie." Lol! It's true, too.

Compulsion...yes! Also it sometimes can become an obsession. That's when counseling is a good option. Sometimes talking about your behavior with someone who won't judge you can get you to the point where you can get your head on straight and act right again.

WendyTerry420

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

Interesting.

If I were addicted to something else in my life, would I be able to do a comparison?

Do you have access to an EEG?

No, do you? Do most people?

why?

You wanted to compare brain activity, no? That's how ya do it.

__freckles__

<snip> Here I know, you take some photos of how my brain lights up when you put some cookies in front of me and lets see what the brain of a heroin addict looks like in the same scenario lol.

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

QFT. Unless you’ve spent weeks in bed, sick from withdrawals from going cold turkey from a substance that actually causes physical symptoms when you stop consuming it, please DO NOT compare sugar with drugs. It's insulting to those of us that have overcome such addictions. Thx.

NRSPAM

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

Interesting.

If I were addicted to something else in my life, would I be able to do a comparison?

Only one way to find out! JK. :laugh:

WendyTerry420

At the end of the day, does it really matter? If you were stupid enough to get addicted to heroine, you're going to need to suck it up and break the addiction in order to get away from it. The same with any other addictive substance, whether it's a physical or mental addiction. Even if you are somehow addicted to junk food (which I don't necessarily buy, but assuming you are), you need to put the oreo down if it's preventing you from reaching a caloric deficit. Whether you call putting the oreo down breaking an addiction, gaining some willpower or eating in moderation, it's all the same in the end.

Honestly this is a pointless argument over semantics, which is abundantly clear by people referencing the DSM. :yawn:

It matters a great deal, actually. When talking about health interventions, therapies, etc., whether or not something is an addiction (or whether a substance produces a dependence) is a big deal.

I can understand how it doesn't seem important to a layperson, but this is Stuff That Matters (tm).

I completely agree! It is not pointless semantics. And the fact that the poster of the top quote would label all addicts as "stupid" is very telling.

WendyTerry420

<snip> Here I know, you take some photos of how my brain lights up when you put some cookies in front of me and lets see what the brain of a heroin addict looks like in the same scenario lol.

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

QFT. Unless you’ve spent weeks in bed, sick from withdrawals from going cold turkey from a substance that actually causes physical symptoms when you stop consuming it, please DO NOT compare sugar with drugs. It's insulting to those of us that have overcome such addictions. Thx.

prt64

Gosh, I used to be a smoker for over 25 years! I quit that and then got addicted to carbs....I love to bake and I love good bread....and all the other no-nos.
I really relate to your cravings because I do well for a few days then gorge on anything sweet I see lying around....yesterday I ate 6 chocolate truffles...seriously!!!!! But I've limited my total carb intake to around 30-40 per day and that excludes all bad carbs....I agree cold turkey is the only way to break this habit. And this habit is harder to quit than smoking!!!!! At least for me....

Mr_Clean

Is this one not valid as well?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/

I do not claim to have any scientific background, just curious...

Gemmz2014

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

Interesting.

If I were addicted to something else in my life, would I be able to do a comparison?

Do you have access to an EEG?

No, do you? Do most people?

why?

You wanted to compare brain activity, no? That's how ya do it.

I see. Well there goes that idea!

I don't know if my problem is an addiction but I can tell you, I have been addicted to certain things in my life and I know for a fact that if one of them was in front of me now, I would really have the urge to do it.

Do I have the urge to eat sugar? Yes, in certain situations though. Work.. always. Home... not so much.

parkscs

It matters a great deal, actually. When talking about health interventions, therapies, etc., whether or not something is an addiction (or whether a substance produces a dependence) is a big deal.

I can understand how it doesn't seem important to a layperson, but this is Stuff That Matters (tm).

Given that it's a discussion on MFP forums involving research by some students on rats, I'd say we disagree that this is important or Stuff that Matters (tm).

As for whether sugar is "addicting" and whether that's important, I've always been of the school of thought that you're accountable for yourself and blaming your behavior on an addiction (especially a mental addiction) is no excuse. Therapy, interventions... I dunno, I personally have a hard time thinking highly of that area of science. There are some legit issues, but for the most part I tend to think most people just need to suck it up and own their problems. You can have a "sugar intervention" or put someone in therapy for their sugar eating disorder, but they honestly won't make a change until they want to change. I know people that have been through countless hours of pointless therapy for mental illness and addiction with no change, while I've seen others kick physical addictions like smoking on their own, seemingly overnight.

At the end of the day, even if sugar is in some ways addictive for some people, the solution at the end of the day is still for those people to find a way to deal with it that achieves a caloric deficit.

Ries2013

<snip> Here I know, you take some photos of how my brain lights up when you put some cookies in front of me and lets see what the brain of a heroin addict looks like in the same scenario lol.

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories

QFT. Unless you’ve spent weeks in bed, sick from withdrawals from going cold turkey from a substance that actually causes physical symptoms when you stop consuming it, please DO NOT compare sugar with drugs. It's insulting to those of us that have overcome such addictions. Thx.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12055324

Repeated, excessive intake of sugar created a state in which an opioid antagonist caused behavioral and neurochemical signs of opioid withdrawal. The indices of anxiety and DA/ACh imbalance were qualitatively similar to withdrawal from morphine or nicotine, suggesting that the rats had become sugar-dependent.

katempadilla

A few things:

1: You're not alone. While it's not necessarily an addition, our body responds to excess amounts of sugar in the same way that it response to drugs (such as cocaine). There are so many people out there who struggle with this, including me at one point.

2. Know your poison. Read up on how sugar affects your metabolism/body/lifestyle. If you understand how something affects you, you're more likely to avoid things that are bad and stick with things that are good. If you want to lose weight, and you want to be healthier, set a goal and stick to it. Keep that goal in mind, along with the information you learn, to stay on track. [I recommend Salt, Sugar, Fat, by Michael Moss]

3. Don't necessarily quit cold turkey. By that I mean, don't go from all sugar to no sugar in a day. Some things you should quit immediately--soda being one, if that's your thing--because the sugar is least of your worries there. If you put sugar in your coffee or tea, switch to Stevia or monkfruit instead, they're natural sugar alternatives. Then try to eliminate one sugar-thing from your diet each week. If you have a cupcake in the afternoon, switch it out for a piece of fruit and some cheese or almonds. You still get the sweetness from the fruit, but the protein from the cheese or almonds will keep you satisfied longer, so you won't necessarily run for the candy on your way out the door.

Let me know if this helps. I would totally be willing to help you more, if you'd like. I love researching nutrition and exercise.

Greytfish

I see. Well there goes that idea!

I don't know if my problem is an addiction but I can tell you, I have been addicted to certain things in my life and I know for a fact that if one of them was in front of me now, I would really have the urge to do it.

Do I have the urge to eat sugar? Yes, in certain situations though. Work.. always. Home... not so much.

You're confusing addiction/dependence with desire for something pleasurable and an absence of self control.

And, for those who have actually had a real dependence/addiction or dealt with those who have done so, yes, it is wholly insulting.

But, please, feel free to point out what other bad habits you have the removal of which would cause physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms severe enough that psychiatric medications need to be administered to prevent death during detox from it.

da_bears10089

At the end of the day, does it really matter? If you were stupid enough to get addicted to heroine, you're going to need to suck it up and break the addiction in order to get away from it. The same with any other addictive substance, whether it's a physical or mental addiction. Even if you are somehow addicted to junk food (which I don't necessarily buy, but assuming you are), you need to put the oreo down if it's preventing you from reaching a caloric deficit. Whether you call putting the oreo down breaking an addiction, gaining some willpower or eating in moderation, it's all the same in the end.

Honestly this is a pointless argument over semantics, which is abundantly clear by people referencing the DSM. :yawn:

The problem is that people can use it as an excuse.

"I have an addiction."
"I was diagnosed with obesity."

It takes away personal responsibility.

perseverance14

"Well honestly the best thing you can do is understand it's not an addiction. There's no physical need there, the way there is with nicotine or even alcohol. "

But I have known alcoholics who when they quit drinking ate sugar instead. I had a freind who went to AA years ago and she wasn't over it until she stopped drinking AND substituting it with sugar.

I read posts that say it is an addiction, posts that say it is not. Having battled with it too, from my perspective it can be a habit or an addiction. Having ice cream every night after dinner can be a habit, eating a piece of chocolate and not stopping till 10 or more later is more like an addiction (those are both examples from my past life) and because of what I have seen with more than one alcoholic I have known, I wonder if sugar plays into some of the same "sensors" that alcohol does?

Just a thought.

jonnythan

<snip> Here I know, you take some photos of how my brain lights up when you put some cookies in front of me and lets see what the brain of a heroin addict looks like in the same scenario lol.

You are confused between the differences in addiction and what is considered normal brain activity. Everyone's brain "lights up" (lol) when they experience pleasure. You have made it clear that you have never been addicted to heroin. (or anything else) If you had ever suffered an addiction, then you would never compare it binge-eating disorder, etc.

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories

QFT. Unless you’ve spent weeks in bed, sick from withdrawals from going cold turkey from a substance that actually causes physical symptoms when you stop consuming it, please DO NOT compare sugar with drugs. It's insulting to those of us that have overcome such addictions. Thx.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12055324

Repeated, excessive intake of sugar created a state in which an opioid antagonist caused behavioral and neurochemical signs of opioid withdrawal. The indices of anxiety and DA/ACh imbalance were qualitatively similar to withdrawal from morphine or nicotine, suggesting that the rats had become sugar-dependent.

Did you look at the methods? The rats were starved, then given an enormous amount of sugar, then injected with a drug used to fight opioid withdrawal.

runway22

great tips, thanks!!

tracywintn

There are 6 pages to this thread and I didn't read anything but the OP-so forgive me if this is already in there. I am also a major sugar fiend and have to just stay away from it (a little is never enough-it's a snowball effect for me). I have found the sugar free jello (5-10 cals depending on which flavor you get) satisfy my sugar cravings and don't do any damage to my daily calorie limit. Good luck!

parkscs

The problem is that people can use it as an excuse.

"I have an addiction."
"I was diagnosed with obesity."

It takes away personal responsibility.

Perhaps that's where we see things differently. I don't view someone saying "I have an addiction" as diminishing their personal responsibility whatsoever.

jonnythan

The problem is that people can use it as an excuse.

"I have an addiction."
"I was diagnosed with obesity."

It takes away personal responsibility.

Perhaps that's where we see things differently. I don't view someone saying "I have an addiction" as diminishing their personal responsibility whatsoever.

Well frankly you don't seem to have a good handle on addiction or psychology in general, so your opinion of the implications of whether it's an addiction don't mean much. You even said something about people being "stupid enough to get addicted to drugs." That was painful to read, dude.

bcattoes

Show me someone that goes through withdrawal symptoms similar to drug or alcohol addicts and watch them be "detoxed" and then MAYBE i will consider food addiction a real thing.

Why would the symptoms have to similar or as severe? Giving up smoking does not have similar symptoms to a heroin addict giving up heroin, yet few would argue that both were addictions.

Few would argue? Anyone "in the know" would agree that nicotine addiction is more severe than heroin addiction. Nicotine is the most difficult drug to quit. In fact, NIDA used to have a chart on this...

That was more or less my point. They are both addictive, but the reactions are not similar.

I don't really have an opinion on whether one can be addicted to sugar other than I doubt there is sufficient research for anyone to say deifinitively one way or the other.

parkscs

Just being honest. I have yet to meet someone who was physically forced into smoking cigarettes or sticking a needle in their arm for the first few times. If you're stupid enough to go that route, knowing what we know about those substances, then I have little sympathy for the recovery process not being fun. If you mess up and get addicted, fine, but own your mistakes and deal with it. Whether you call it an addiction, a habit, a compulsion or whatever other term you want to use, the answer is the same: if you want to get past it, you need to suck it up and deal with it.

As for not grasping psychology, I think it's more that my opinion on modern psychology starting to show itself, but no need to derail the thread any more than it already is.

Gemmz2014

I see. Well there goes that idea!

I don't know if my problem is an addiction but I can tell you, I have been addicted to certain things in my life and I know for a fact that if one of them was in front of me now, I would really have the urge to do it.

Do I have the urge to eat sugar? Yes, in certain situations though. Work.. always. Home... not so much.

You're confusing addiction/dependence with desire for something pleasurable and an absence of self control.

And, for those who have actually had a real dependence/addiction or dealt with those who have done so, yes, it is wholly insulting.

But, please, feel free to point out what other bad habits you have the removal of which would cause physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms severe enough that psychiatric medications need to be administered to prevent death during detox from it.

Don't get me wrong, I am actually questioning myself if sugar is addicting.

I have never had to take psychiatric meds to quit an addiction. I did cocaine for 9 months straight. Just stopped. This was 30 years ago. I also quit smoking cold turkey. I never ever crave a cigarette. yuk!!

msf74

and walk happily away either. I have to eat it until they are done.

So you basically binge on it. This might sound weird...but that's a great thing. Why? Because unless it's progressed into a full blown disorder (which it seems is not the case) there are some readily accessible techniques which you can use to keep it in check (using your pre frontal cortex - your conscious brain - to control the unconscious habits ingrained in your more primitive mid brain.)

I would suggest checking out books by Kathryn Hansen, Gillian Riley or Josie Spinardi for techniques you can use to get this under control once and for all.