Trying to gain muscle. Why no cardio?
anson808
Posts: 47 Member
ok - thanks to all the folks who've chimed in to my questions regarding gaining some muscle. Now just to clarify, I'm only looking to put on about 10lbs max.
In any case, a constant advice from people telling me how to build muscle is basically "avoid cardio." Why?
How does cardio prevent you from building muscle? Is it because you're burning excess calories in cardio? In that case, should I just eat more?
Or is it something like "cardio releases too much lactic acid, and causes your muscles to break down, blah blah blah..."?
I really would like to be able to put on muscle in addition to continuing to work my cardio, because the sports that I enjoy demand a good level of cardio. I'm only looking to put on some muscle to help my explosiveness and power (think speed more than heavy weight). Yes, Power is a function of strength, but it's a function of strength over time, so the faster I can move something, the better
Thanks to all the people who share their knowledge and experience on the forum.
In any case, a constant advice from people telling me how to build muscle is basically "avoid cardio." Why?
How does cardio prevent you from building muscle? Is it because you're burning excess calories in cardio? In that case, should I just eat more?
Or is it something like "cardio releases too much lactic acid, and causes your muscles to break down, blah blah blah..."?
I really would like to be able to put on muscle in addition to continuing to work my cardio, because the sports that I enjoy demand a good level of cardio. I'm only looking to put on some muscle to help my explosiveness and power (think speed more than heavy weight). Yes, Power is a function of strength, but it's a function of strength over time, so the faster I can move something, the better
Thanks to all the people who share their knowledge and experience on the forum.
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Replies
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I can only speculate. I am running and trying to gain muscle. I am focusing on building muscle right now, so I have cut back from running sessions. Part of this is the amount of calories I eat when I'm focused on running + the amount of calories I needed to build muscles became too much for me to do. I had to draw the line and set a priority. Now during the Spring, I will switch over and focus more on running and switch to maintaining my current build.0
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Intense cardio longer than a certain time limit (not sure what it is, need some scientific studies, but lets just say 15 minutes HIIT) is catabolic, it necessarily starts the process of muscle breakdown. And of course, burns calories but this can be offset with eating.
This is why you'll see professional bodybuilders do 2 types of cardio. Low Intensity stuff for an hour (walking, slow stairmaster) or 10 minutes of HIIT.
Just dont go running a half marathon every week.0 -
Finally an answer that makes sense to me! Thanks!
Oh well - my vball sessions often run 2 hours. 2-3 times a week. I'm guessing that's been keeping most of my muscle off of me.0 -
Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
That's why body builders do 'incline' walk and some light-medium cardio on an empty stomach 3 x / week for no more than 30 min.
If you focus on lifting weights and do cardio on the side, you will put on a lot of strength/muscle, but you might put on fat as well.
It's a fine balance...
In the end?
It's 100% diet. If you do a lot of running, then eat a lot of complex carbs and eat a lot of protein throughout the day along with omega 3 fatty acid, and other essential supplements to prevent muscle breakdowns.
You notice how after a long run, you can't bench/curl, do any lifts as much as when you don't?
Do your weights first, then do HIIT at the end.0 -
I agree with trojan, when you perform high intensity cardio, the protein needed by your muscles, is used in running. Now Don't quit on cardio at all. Keep it lite. Gaining weight is not a problem unless you have some illness. Otherwise, a good diet and little workout is enough. Let your body gain some weight. Lite exercise will keep your muscles in shape.0
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Cardio is fine. It just makes it harder since you have to eat more calories. (And get enough rest without running yourself down!)
It also might release more stress hormones that induce more catabolism (I've heard that but I'm not sure if that's really true unless you actually overtrain...might be broscience).0 -
Good topic!
This is interesting to be because my life is essentially steady state cardio (am a livestock farmer) and as well as my lifting I also play rugby (1 or 2 80min training sessions/week and a match (another 80) on Saturday) and will be looking to bulk soon.
Looks like I should be eating a load when I do.0 -
Good topic!
This is interesting to be because my life is essentially steady state cardio (am a livestock farmer) and as well as my lifting I also play rugby (1 or 2 80min training sessions/week and a match (another 80) on Saturday) and will be looking to bulk soon.
Looks like I should be eating a load when I do.
save up a few cows, you'll be fine!0 -
In for a read at it all later
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Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
I thought this was because being jacked was helpful if you are a sprinter, but being light and lean was helpful if you are a long distance runner.
If you do cardio won't you use up your glycogen reserves first, then body fat, THEN (as a last resort, when the other two are depleted) muscle?0 -
I've seen lots of people that dislike cardio say it's catabolic but the only credible science I've seen related to ultra marathon runners.
If you have some please post....
Here's a report on the ultra marathon runners that showed some leg muscle loss but bear in mind they ran 2,788.7 miles in 64 days - that's over 43 miles a day !
http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/30/lessons-from-ultra-endurance-runners/
The preferred energy sources are glycogen and fat and only when they are depleted would your body turn to protein/muscle.
Most people can do cardio for two hours before glycogen depletion (hitting the wall as marathon runners put it or bonking as cyclists describe it). I don't believe anyone doing a reasonable amount of cardio and has an adequate diet needs to worry about cardio reducing muscle mass. My own experience training for and completing a 100 mile cycle was nothing but increased leg strength and muscle size.
If you think of elite endurance athletes from all sports they all do a huge training volume - so if that was harmful how do they manage to remain elite performers?0 -
Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
I thought this was because being jacked was helpful if you are a sprinter, but being light and lean was helpful if you are a long distance runner.
If you do cardio won't you use up your glycogen reserves first, then body fat, THEN (as a last resort, when the other two are depleted) muscle?
No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.
Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html0 -
I'm no expert, but here's how I see it.
If you need say 3400 calories daily to gain x amount of kg per week (sho, that's a lot of food!) and you do some intense cardio daily and burn say 350 calories, you only "provided" 3150 odd calories for your body to use that day.
Most pro bodybuilders dont do a lot of cardio anyways as muscle burns more calories for maintenance...so the bigger you get...the more you have to eat it seams. I think for us normal folk doing some form of cardio whilst trying to achieve 205 pounds with low bodyfat could easily be done.0 -
[guote]
No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.
Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html
[/quote]
I agree with this.
I do a lot of cardio (spin, run, classes) - I'm building muscle very nicely! I think you just have to be careful what you eat, make sure you eat enough protein, fuel your workouts adequately, eat enough carbs, etc.0 -
Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
That's why body builders do 'incline' walk and some light-medium cardio on an empty stomach 3 x / week for no more than 30 min.
If you focus on lifting weights and do cardio on the side, you will put on a lot of strength/muscle, but you might put on fat as well.
It's a fine balance...
In the end?
It's 100% diet. If you do a lot of running, then eat a lot of complex carbs and eat a lot of protein throughout the day along with omega 3 fatty acid, and other essential supplements to prevent muscle breakdowns.
You notice how after a long run, you can't bench/curl, do any lifts as much as when you don't?
Do your weights first, then do HIIT at the end.
That is because the body will adapt to the conditions and activities it partakes in.
A marathon runner does not need bulky muscles, in fact it would not be conducive to efficient long distance running, therefore the body eventually adapts and you end up with slow twitch fibres in the muscles.
A sprinter on the other hand is partaking in an explosive sport, muscles are needed for this, the body will adapt accordingly, with fast-twitch fibres.
For information by the way, a sprinter DOES do lots of cardio, they run. It is the type of running that will determine the bulk the person ends up with.0 -
In for the thread. I'm facing the same concerns. Trying to lose body fat while retaining max muscle. It's a constant mental connundrum to decide between keeping useful calories (protein) in my diet and workout focused on weights, vs trying to speed the fat loss with a larger calorie defecit and more cardio. Haven't figured out if I'm doing it right yet.0
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Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
I thought this was because being jacked was helpful if you are a sprinter, but being light and lean was helpful if you are a long distance runner.
If you do cardio won't you use up your glycogen reserves first, then body fat, THEN (as a last resort, when the other two are depleted) muscle?
No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.
Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html
I guess the cardio is why he eats 6000 calories a day?0 -
In for the thread. I'm facing the same concerns. Trying to lose body fat while retaining max muscle. It's a constant mental connundrum to decide between keeping useful calories (protein) in my diet and workout focused on weights, vs trying to speed the fat loss with a larger calorie defecit and more cardio. Haven't figured out if I'm doing it right yet.
stop wanting to do it quickly! then you wont have as much of a problem!0 -
1. Gaining muscle requires a calorie surplus. Low intensity steady state cardio can rack up a large amount of calorie expenditure meaning your surplus is eroded or wiped out altogether. So, do less cardio or eat more.
2. Cardio is said to be catabolic (and you want to be in an anabolic state to gain muscle.) The case for this is massively overblown. The hormonal environment tends to become catabolic at around 80 - 90 minutes from one decent study of the matter. Even then this can be mitigated by refuelling appropriately (chocolate milk anyone?)
Up to you how you approach it. If you want to include cardio it isn't a big deal. Either eat more (and who wants to do that right) or don't log significant mileage. Your gainz will be just fine brah
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If you are trying to do this - "Trying to lose body fat while retaining max muscle" - then adequate protein and a small calorie deficit are the way to go combined with a good, progressive weight training routine.In for the thread. I'm facing the same concerns. Trying to lose body fat while retaining max muscle. It's a constant mental connundrum to decide between keeping useful calories (protein) in my diet and workout focused on weights, vs trying to speed the fat loss with a larger calorie defecit and more cardio. Haven't figured out if I'm doing it right yet.
My personal choice was a small calorie deficit by including a lot of cardio exercise as well as my weight training and lot's more food, which seems to be a win/win. Same calorie deficit as no cardio less food but less restricted diet and increased CV fitness and sporting performance.0 -
Sorry my answer is all about me, but I can't provide a scientific one since I only seem to be able to find conflicting advice when it comes to this topic.
As someone who is trying to LOSE leg muscle (mainly from my calves, they are larger than I'd like them to be), I've found that it depends on what kind of cardio you are doing. I think that any form of cardio will build some muscle, but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones. A few years back I used to cycle uphill to work every single day, and my calves became bulky...really bulky. I also didn't manage to lose any weight overall, for some reason. Now that I run long-distances, my calves are the smallest they have ever been.
Keep in mind that generally cardio-->low body fat-->more muscle definition.
You could give fast, short-distance running...I doubt it will make your muscles waste away, if that's what you're afraid of...0 -
The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones
OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.0 -
Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.0
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The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones
OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.
That's the problem with long-duration low-to-moderate-intensity cardio, like going walking or mowing the lawn...it seems to take away appetite. After I mow the lawn, I'm not at all hungry. Just the opposite, but I have to eat 600 calories back anyway.Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.
True. But I don't know if it's enough for cardiovascular health long-term the way most people lift (taking breaks between sets). At least it's something though.0 -
I've heard over 30 minutes of cardio can eat into muscle mass - however - I've seen plenty of runners who are bulky and when I was weight lifting my 45 minute runs didn't eat into anything. (back in the 80's when most of the guys I lifted with also ran- and they were freaking huge!!) I still think it's cals in - cals out.0
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a lot of people hear "cardio" and think 'low intensity steady state,' and think 'half marathon training. they shouldn't. longer cardio has it's place in many programs. personally, after a few minutes of running or biking, my legs start to recover from DOMS. i read once that moderate intensity cardio for 20-30 minutes can help people recover from a really hard strength training day (specifically leg day) a full day faster than those that only went for a light cardio session.
another thing people confuse cardio with is conditioning. conditioning can and should be part of your strength training routine, in forms of prowler sled pushes, box jumps, and complexes.0 -
No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.
Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html
I agree with this.
I do a lot of cardio (spin, run, classes) - I'm building muscle very nicely! I think you just have to be careful what you eat, make sure you eat enough protein, fuel your workouts adequately, eat enough carbs, etc.
How do you know you're building muscle though? It is extremely difficult for a female to build muscle. A body building female is going to be hard pressed to put on 6lbs of muscle in a year......0 -
The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones
OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.
That's the problem with long-duration low-to-moderate-intensity cardio, like going walking or mowing the lawn...it seems to take away appetite. After I mow the lawn, I'm not at all hungry. Just the opposite, but I have to eat 600 calories back anyway.Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.
True. But I don't know if it's enough for cardiovascular health long-term the way most people lift (taking breaks between sets). At least it's something though.
We are clearly different!
I load a couple trailer loads of bales (I use small bales, so would be by hand). I hungry
I gather (well, the dog does mostly) and dose a couple of hundred sheep. I hungry.
I shift a few miles of electric fencing. I hungry.
I mow the lawn - I reckon I deserve a pint in the sunshine....
:drinker:0 -
I've seen lots of people that dislike cardio say it's catabolic but the only credible science I've seen related to ultra marathon runners.
If you have some please post....
Here's a report on the ultra marathon runners that showed some leg muscle loss but bear in mind they ran 2,788.7 miles in 64 days - that's over 43 miles a day !
http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/30/lessons-from-ultra-endurance-runners/
The preferred energy sources are glycogen and fat and only when they are depleted would your body turn to protein/muscle.
Most people can do cardio for two hours before glycogen depletion (hitting the wall as marathon runners put it or bonking as cyclists describe it). I don't believe anyone doing a reasonable amount of cardio and has an adequate diet needs to worry about cardio reducing muscle mass. My own experience training for and completing a 100 mile cycle was nothing but increased leg strength and muscle size.
If you think of elite endurance athletes from all sports they all do a huge training volume - so if that was harmful how do they manage to remain elite performers?
^^^^^^ I would argue this exactly
Also people commenting about runners being thin and sprinters being muscular are missing an important point. The people they are talking about specifically shape their bodies to be in the best physical form for their event. Sprinters need a lot (a hell of a lot) of type II muscle, low body fat to give a high power to weight ratio. Long distance runners need type I muscle and a high overall body mass to power ratio so they don't want to be carrying around a lot of upper body muscle. It doesn't mean they couldn't build a lot of muscle it means that if they did they would be at the back of the pack. If you look at Triathlon athletes, these guys and girls will do a lot of cardio (a standard length tri is mainly cardio in nature) but they are usually midway between marathon lean and sprinter bulked - because the different activities need upper as well as lower body strength.0 -
Good topic and discussion. I enjoy cardio and am at a point where I want to incorporate more weights to increase muscle without totally sacrificing cardio. I've reduced cardio (running/elliptical) slightly in the last few weeks and started some weight routines. But am unsure how to balance it out properly. Learning a lot from all your replies so thanks and thanks to OP for starting the discussion.0
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