Trying to gain muscle. Why no cardio?
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Good topic and discussion. I enjoy cardio and am at a point where I want to incorporate more weights to increase muscle without totally sacrificing cardio. I've reduced cardio (running/elliptical) slightly in the last few weeks and started some weight routines. But am unsure how to balance it out properly. Learning a lot from all your replies so thanks and thanks to OP for starting the discussion.
The weight routines aren't going to build muscle without the proper diet of eating at TDEE, a bit of a surplus, maybe a bit of a deficit.0 -
The body does not use muscle for fuel. What the body does is break down the protein you eat for fuel (gluconeogenesis to restore glycogen is actually faster than oxidizing fat) when you deplete glycogen stores. Constant lifting and constant cardio can lead to overtraining and glycogen depletion. When the body is using the protein you eat for fuel (due to the volume and intensity of workouts) then the body doesn't have enough protein to maintain the muscle, so when muscle IS broken down (as it is regularly due to normal metabolic maintenance) there's no protein to rebuild it.Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
I thought this was because being jacked was helpful if you are a sprinter, but being light and lean was helpful if you are a long distance runner.
If you do cardio won't you use up your glycogen reserves first, then body fat, THEN (as a last resort, when the other two are depleted) muscle?
No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.
Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html0 -
If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.
You're not likely to see any Ronnie Colemans or anything, but jacked? Absolutely. I was surprised with the body compositions of some of the Ironman competitors.
As for what you do for cardio, volleyball is anaerobic, not steady state. You're not likely to go into catabolic state playing volleyball.
I know a couple pro bodybuilders who start their mornings with a 30 minute to 1 hour run. Particularly in the lead-up to competition. One of the personal trainers at my last gym was a pro, and I met her while out for a beach run. I regularly saw pros running along the beach when competitions were at the facility down the road from where I lived.
You can most definitely do cardio. Just make sure you're still eating at a surplus.0 -
re: OP - basically you are buring calories that you could be turning into muscle when you do cardio while you bulk. As others have said you defintiely can do it, just make sure you're eating enough.
As for women putting on muscle I must have put on 5-6lbs this year. Went from squatting with dumbbells to squatting 155. I can see a difference too. It's great. It totally depends on genetics, what you eat, and training though. Personally I do cardio when I want to eat more and / or am hoping to lower my bf%. (still make sure I get plenty of protein to support my lean muscle mass though.)0 -
Currently training for a marathon and I am not exactly on the skinny side.
You can do cardio and build muscle, you just got to understand some fundamentals. Steady state cardio is not your enemy for muscle growth, calorie deficits and nutritional timing are when it comes to cardio.0 -
Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
First off, cardio itself is NOT a catalyst or deterrent to bulking.
I understand this logic, but I have to question the premise. The comparison is tough because marathon runners have a lean body mass goal for endurance and not strength, so they do not even try and bulk. What would be interesting is seeing a study done where marathon runners start adding heavy weight lifting. Could they bulk? I would be willing to bet they could with the proper diet. Although that mix would almost certainly change their endurance, as well as adding extra weight to move over a longer time.
Sprinters NEED muscle mass to help move their frame quickly, so they include heavy weights, or more often other strength training.
I guess my point is, it is NOT the cardio in those examples, but the goals that really dictate the results. The issue is the amount of time one can spend exercising needs to be weighed against the goals. THAT is the truth of it. If your goal is to bulk, and you have a couple hours a day for exercise, the majority of your time is going to be doing strength training with a little cardio to keep the cardiopulmonary system healthy. If your goal is sport related and you have the same two hours, your routine would depend on the balance between endurance, strength, and agility you need to compete. If you are looking for simple, healthy lifestyle changes or getting started losing weight, and you have the same two hours for exercise a day, you might lean more towards cardio, doing walks, hikes, etc.
Again, cardio itself is NOT a catalyst or deterrent to building muscle. All depends on the goal.0 -
If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.
You're not likely to see any Ronnie Colemans or anything, but jacked? Absolutely. I was surprised with the body compositions of some of the Ironman competitors.
As for what you do for cardio, volleyball is anaerobic, not steady state. You're not likely to go into catabolic state playing volleyball.
I know a couple pro bodybuilders who start their mornings with a 30 minute to 1 hour run. Particularly in the lead-up to competition. One of the personal trainers at my last gym was a pro, and I met her while out for a beach run. I regularly saw pros running along the beach when competitions were at the facility down the road from where I lived.
You can most definitely do cardio. Just make sure you're still eating at a surplus.
No, you won't. There is not one jacked marathoner alive. Most men would have a VERY different idea of jacked than you. 180lbs, 5'10, and lean is not jacked. It's slightly muscled. And these are the genetic elite, the rest of the marathoners have incredibly low amounts of muscle mass. There are a FEW world class sprinters that are heavily muscled. A FEW. And not one marathoner. There are couple of marathoners with above average size and that's it.
Every instance of physical activity impairs recovery. Recovery dictates muscle gain. And caloric surplus does not completely mitigate this.
Of course, these marathoners aren't training for maximum mass. But I know a number of them perform solid lifting programs and eat a surplus. They would be holding much more mass if not for their daily runs.
You can even see the difference in muscle fullness and recovery when you do cardio. It's obvious. 10 minutes of HIIT or a 30 minute walk dont make a difference but ask any weightlifter what a 4 mile run at decent speed does. It's self evident.
And when you mention your female pro at your gym...let's be clear here, there are several classes in women's physique/bodybuilding. Being a pro female competitor does not require much muscle mass except in one division. And there are very few women in that division. There are literally dozens of pro female competitors with really low amounts of muscle, even by female standards. A pro female fitness competitor can get away with tons of cardio and a little muscle loss. It won't hurt their placing. Most of them even get marked down for too much muscle or coming in too conditioned. It's a totally different game.0 -
You can do cardio and build muscle, you just got to understand some fundamentals. Steady state cardio is not your enemy for muscle growth, calorie deficits and nutritional timing are when it comes to cardio.
Thats my understanding.... Beside maintaining a surplus the main issue is recovery... Both cardio and strength training are catabolic. That is a fact. The goal is to have MPS (muscle protein synthesis) in excess of the loss, thus, a net gain. Do too much intense cardio along with intense training and you'll have a net loss. Im not sure how much walking you;d have to do to create an issue with recovery. I always thought walking actually helped me recover faster.
Its all a matter of your ability to recover, so long as you maintain your surplus. There is a tipping point. You can't adapt to unlimited levels of stress and expect to result in a net gain because you maintained the surplus of calories. Thats just wishful thinking. Surely, some people adapt to pretty high levels of "work" without having a catabolic effect, but, thats conditioning and endurance, its not optimal muscle gaining protocols.
This all leads into overtraining and developing injuries. Im surprised nobody has said this yet. WTF people.
A final note. Ive cut out nearly all cardio during a bulk before and the drop in conditioning level hurt my lifts. I began to get winded lifting and I sweat a lot more. In turn my numbers dropped as well. I think cutting out cardio all together is a horrible idea (it certainly is for me). Just keep it reasonable.0 -
If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.
jacked? no, probably not.
low body fat and defined muscles, yes. but jacked? nope.0 -
Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it.
This is the takeaway I've gotten from a number of places where they talk about losing muscle with cardiio. It seems to be a matter of losing muscle that isn't used. Because traditional steady-state cardio doesn't use all types of muscle, if you focus on just cardio the muscles you don't use will shrink. It's not the cardio that casues it, but lack of use.0 -
Unless you're training for an ironman or doing 'round the clock marathon training or something like that, I wouldn't worry about it. Getting in some volley ball a few times a week or going for a nice ride a few times per week...or running for an hour a few times per week isn't going to have much of an impact save for necessitating more food to ensure a surplus of energy.
Really the only people I've known to actually worry about it a whole lot are some people here on MFP and competition bodybuilders and power lifters. I would suppose that if your job was to lift as much weight as possible or build as much muscle as possible then it might matter to a greater extent than it would for the average Joe/Jane just trying to get stronger and/or put on a little muscle mass.0 -
Thanks for the original post and all the answers.
I am trying to do the same thing. I am currently still cutting. I am just about at my last 10 lbs to cut before I get to 15% BF.
Then my next goal was to bulk up, just enough to look a little ripped.
My main initial reason for running was to help loose the weight, but I have grown very fond of it now. I am signed up for my first 10K and half marathon. I just grew in love with it. And as of the beginning of this month, I do a HM as training in my Saturday long runs. (That's on top of running 4 miles every morning M-F).
I do eat a lot of protein. Since I don't have a lot left to loose, I have ate a lot more in calories but still at a slight deficit. The running makes me have to eat more.
Once I get down to my goal, I will see if i can continue to run at the way i am now but see if I can eat at a surplus. I range from 150-170 g of protein daily now. What I am lacking right now is the carbs. I am still low in carbs and probably could use more healthy fats. That will change when I get to a bulk.
So the only testiment I can give right now is that the running is not burning my muscle. But my fat is. I am not sure if I am gaining if any in muscle, but when I lift, each week I notice a gain in strength. Also, I am looking leaner and my muscle is definetly more defined then when I started about 100 days ago.
I do want to try and run a marathon by the end of the year. We will see how this all works out.0 -
a lot of people hear "cardio" and think 'low intensity steady state,' and think 'half marathon training. they shouldn't. longer cardio has it's place in many programs. personally, after a few minutes of running or biking, my legs start to recover from DOMS. i read once that moderate intensity cardio for 20-30 minutes can help people recover from a really hard strength training day (specifically leg day) a full day faster than those that only went for a light cardio session.
another thing people confuse cardio with is conditioning. conditioning can and should be part of your strength training routine, in forms of prowler sled pushes, box jumps, and complexes.
well put.. i breezed over this at first... this is what I was trying to convey.0 -
At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=9560 -
At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=956
ok, I can link some NFL guys with high muscle mass that do cardio to perform well. That's not an argument for optimal gaining. These guys are the genetic elite, how much bigger would they be if they actually trained for muscle mass? Much larger.
Plus, that guy has the body of your average gym rat. You can literally do anything in the gym and you'll look similar after 10 years training.0 -
Im sedentary besides training.... That being said, my cardio is 1.5 miles walk to and from the gym along with a .5mi warmup and a 1-1.5 mile cooldown before stretching after my lifting session... thats what works for me. I throw in a 5k, tempo run, or some intervals once or twice a week... or i do cycling... my weekly mileage is around 12 miles walking and 8 miles running....
what works for you may be more or less depending on your diet, recovery, and training intensity.
good luck0 -
Getting "ripped" is low body fat, you don't have to bulk to get that, just reduce body fat down to about 10-12%.Thanks for the original post and all the answers.
I am trying to do the same thing. I am currently still cutting. I am just about at my last 10 lbs to cut before I get to 15% BF.
Then my next goal was to bulk up, just enough to look a little ripped.
My main initial reason for running was to help loose the weight, but I have grown very fond of it now. I am signed up for my first 10K and half marathon. I just grew in love with it. And as of the beginning of this month, I do a HM as training in my Saturday long runs. (That's on top of running 4 miles every morning M-F).
I do eat a lot of protein. Since I don't have a lot left to loose, I have ate a lot more in calories but still at a slight deficit. The running makes me have to eat more.
Once I get down to my goal, I will see if i can continue to run at the way i am now but see if I can eat at a surplus. I range from 150-170 g of protein daily now. What I am lacking right now is the carbs. I am still low in carbs and probably could use more healthy fats. That will change when I get to a bulk.
So the only testiment I can give right now is that the running is not burning my muscle. But my fat is. I am not sure if I am gaining if any in muscle, but when I lift, each week I notice a gain in strength. Also, I am looking leaner and my muscle is definetly more defined then when I started about 100 days ago.
I do want to try and run a marathon by the end of the year. We will see how this all works out.0 -
At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=956
Tom Croft is from the same village as me (that I grew up in, not where I live now) - saw him over christmas. He manages to get through a lot of cardio too and is smaller than Haskell, but compred to most, normal people he is a giant.0 -
The OP isn't trying to be a bodybuilder. He is asking if cardio will hamper his goals not a bodybuilder's goals.At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=956
ok, I can link some NFL guys with high muscle mass that do cardio to perform well. That's not an argument for optimal gaining. These guys are the genetic elite, how much bigger would they be if they actually trained for muscle mass? Much larger.
Plus, that guy has the body of your average gym rat. You can literally do anything in the gym and you'll look similar after 10 years training.0 -
At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=956
ok, I can link some NFL guys with high muscle mass that do cardio to perform well. That's not an argument for optimal gaining. These guys are the genetic elite, how much bigger would they be if they actually trained for muscle mass? Much larger.
Plus, that guy has the body of your average gym rat. You can literally do anything in the gym and you'll look similar after 10 years training.
Mate, he's 6'4" and 240lbs....0 -
I am in the same boat as you. I have been a runner for years, and I just started weight training. I want my arms to match my legs LOL. I am not wanting to bulk up really big, and, as a woman, I am sure I won't get huge anyway, but I do want to gain muscle and become over all stronger.
I have decided the route for me is to keep running normally, which, for me, is 2 or 3 miles a day for 3 to 5 days during the week, and then 2 days of long runs, which are 4 to 6.7 miles (I plan to increase one of the runs per week so I am up to the half marathon I want to do this summer). I run 5-7 times a week. I run before I lift becaue I don't want to be too tired for my run. I have found that my legs are strong enough to run before I lift with my legs as long as I don't run a long run beforehand, and my arms are never too tired to lift after running. I have heard that people who are mainly focusing on muscle gain usually do weights before cardio, but runners, who are focused on their speed, may run first if they want to do so.
I have also changed my diet. I am being pretty strict with eating clean, and I am really watching my protien intake since I am new to lifting weights. I am trying to drink plenty of water, which helps muscles recover also.
I have found success in this so far, and I am keepign in mind that it will take time. My arms and chest are becoming stronger, and I really think that the lifting is making me a faster runner. I am seeing results in the weight room in that I upped my weights last week a little, and it is working out great. Cardio is very good for your heart and lungs, and it makes me feel wonderful, so I, personally, would not stop altogether. Everyone is different.0 -
In any case, a constant advice from people telling me how to build muscle is basically "avoid cardio." Why?
It's bad advice. There is no reason to avoid cardio, and many reasons to include it. Here's what 4 hours a day of elite intensity cardio can look like...
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The OP isn't trying to be a bodybuilder. He is asking if cardio will hamper his goals not a bodybuilder's goals.At work so can't link pictures - James Haskell, England rugby player, does a lot of cardio & weights.......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=james+haskell&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k1PhUsufLsqAhAeouICQAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=956
ok, I can link some NFL guys with high muscle mass that do cardio to perform well. That's not an argument for optimal gaining. These guys are the genetic elite, how much bigger would they be if they actually trained for muscle mass? Much larger.
Plus, that guy has the body of your average gym rat. You can literally do anything in the gym and you'll look similar after 10 years training.
The OP was already addressed. No one knows the exact threshold for optimal mass vs cardio. A couple hours of volleyball won't hamper his goals.
But saying that cardio is NOT ever catabolic is simply wrong. At a certain level, running will reverse the process and no amount of food will prevent it.
Mate, he's 6'4" and 240lbs....
Yep. Average weight for that height for a guy that's been training for years. He has large legs and a massive skeleton, which lends itself to rugby. He would need to be at least 280 and that same bodyfat to even think of competing against guys who train for muscle mass.. Big difference between being a top athlete and having maximum muscle mass.0 -
cristiano ronaldo is the worst thing to ever happen to spanish soccer. ever.0
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In any case, a constant advice from people telling me how to build muscle is basically "avoid cardio." Why?
It's bad advice. There is no reason to avoid cardio, and many reasons to include it. Here's what 4 hours a day of elite intensity cardio can look like...
As long as you're a genetic freak......right?
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here are two good articles seems to depend on your goals and nutrition
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/choosing-cardio-pre-post-workout
http://www.360cut.com/store/pg/32-Individual-Cardio-Requirements-in-Contest-Prep-by-Shelby-Starnes.aspx#0 -
Intense cardio longer than a certain time limit (not sure what it is, need some scientific studies, but lets just say 15 minutes HIIT) is catabolic, it necessarily starts the process of muscle breakdown. And of course, burns calories but this can be offset with eating.
This is why you'll see professional bodybuilders do 2 types of cardio. Low Intensity stuff for an hour (walking, slow stairmaster) or 10 minutes of HIIT.
Just dont go running a half marathon every week.
This is good advice here.
Also, whats your timeframe on this 10lbs?
Depending on your methods, I have seen claims that 10lbs of lean mass can be accomplished in a couple months, or a couple of years.
Long Term: http://scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
Short Term: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2013/05/11/how-to-gain-20-pounds-in-28-days-the-extreme-muscle-building-secrets-of-ufc-fighters/0 -
Cardio is fine to do while trying to add muscle. The whole "catabolic" issue stems around broscience from bodybuilders (whom don't like to do cardio anyway) who always wanted to stay in an anabolic state.
The key to gaining muscle will still be:
Progressive overload with high volume, surplus to build muscle and adequate protein.
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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.
Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.
This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.
Sprinters having substantial muscle is a function of their weight training, not a function of their running.
Middle and long distance runners don't want to be carrying excess weight that just slows them down, so the weight training that they do will tend to be more suited to endurance and stabilisation.
Muscle breakdown as fuel is only going to kick in at about the 180 minute mark.0 -
Cardio is fine while bulking.
You probably should eat more.
try high intensity interval training to cut down cardio time but still get cardio benefits0
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