Trying to gain muscle. Why no cardio?

lalala541

Sorry my answer is all about me, but I can't provide a scientific one since I only seem to be able to find conflicting advice when it comes to this topic.
As someone who is trying to LOSE leg muscle (mainly from my calves, they are larger than I'd like them to be), I've found that it depends on what kind of cardio you are doing. I think that any form of cardio will build some muscle, but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones. A few years back I used to cycle uphill to work every single day, and my calves became bulky...really bulky. I also didn't manage to lose any weight overall, for some reason. Now that I run long-distances, my calves are the smallest they have ever been.
Keep in mind that generally cardio-->low body fat-->more muscle definition.
You could give fast, short-distance running...I doubt it will make your muscles waste away, if that's what you're afraid of...

agthorn

but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones

The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.

OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.

RaggedyPond

Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.

Fithealthyforlife

but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones

The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.

OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.

That's the problem with long-duration low-to-moderate-intensity cardio, like going walking or mowing the lawn...it seems to take away appetite. After I mow the lawn, I'm not at all hungry. Just the opposite, but I have to eat 600 calories back anyway.

Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.

True. But I don't know if it's enough for cardiovascular health long-term the way most people lift (taking breaks between sets). At least it's something though.

leslisa

I've heard over 30 minutes of cardio can eat into muscle mass - however - I've seen plenty of runners who are bulky and when I was weight lifting my 45 minute runs didn't eat into anything. (back in the 80's when most of the guys I lifted with also ran- and they were freaking huge!!) I still think it's cals in - cals out.

Capt_Apollo

a lot of people hear "cardio" and think 'low intensity steady state,' and think 'half marathon training. they shouldn't. longer cardio has it's place in many programs. personally, after a few minutes of running or biking, my legs start to recover from DOMS. i read once that moderate intensity cardio for 20-30 minutes can help people recover from a really hard strength training day (specifically leg day) a full day faster than those that only went for a light cardio session.


another thing people confuse cardio with is conditioning. conditioning can and should be part of your strength training routine, in forms of prowler sled pushes, box jumps, and complexes.

RGv2

No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.

Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html

I agree with this.


I do a lot of cardio (spin, run, classes) - I'm building muscle very nicely! I think you just have to be careful what you eat, make sure you eat enough protein, fuel your workouts adequately, eat enough carbs, etc.

How do you know you're building muscle though? It is extremely difficult for a female to build muscle. A body building female is going to be hard pressed to put on 6lbs of muscle in a year......

SteveJWatson

but long-distance running will build long/lean muscles and sprinting will lead to short/bulky ones

The only thing that determines the length of your muscles is the length of your bones and where the muscles attach to them.

OP, in my personal research I've found that a few short sessions of cardio (20-30 min 2-3x a week) are recommended even when bulking. One reason is that a little bit of cardio can increase the appetite, making it easier to consume the necessary calories for a bulk. The other is that cardio is important for heart health, not just burning calories. You need to train your heart as well as your biceps and quads for total health.

That's the problem with long-duration low-to-moderate-intensity cardio, like going walking or mowing the lawn...it seems to take away appetite. After I mow the lawn, I'm not at all hungry. Just the opposite, but I have to eat 600 calories back anyway.

Lifting sometimes gets the heart racing when you are working hard. In a way makes it cardio as well.

True. But I don't know if it's enough for cardiovascular health long-term the way most people lift (taking breaks between sets). At least it's something though.

We are clearly different!

I load a couple trailer loads of bales (I use small bales, so would be by hand). I hungry

I gather (well, the dog does mostly) and dose a couple of hundred sheep. I hungry.

I shift a few miles of electric fencing. I hungry.

I mow the lawn - I reckon I deserve a pint in the sunshine....

:drinker:

davert123

I've seen lots of people that dislike cardio say it's catabolic but the only credible science I've seen related to ultra marathon runners.
If you have some please post....

Here's a report on the ultra marathon runners that showed some leg muscle loss but bear in mind they ran 2,788.7 miles in 64 days - that's over 43 miles a day !
http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/30/lessons-from-ultra-endurance-runners/

The preferred energy sources are glycogen and fat and only when they are depleted would your body turn to protein/muscle.
Most people can do cardio for two hours before glycogen depletion (hitting the wall as marathon runners put it or bonking as cyclists describe it). I don't believe anyone doing a reasonable amount of cardio and has an adequate diet needs to worry about cardio reducing muscle mass. My own experience training for and completing a 100 mile cycle was nothing but increased leg strength and muscle size.

If you think of elite endurance athletes from all sports they all do a huge training volume - so if that was harmful how do they manage to remain elite performers?

^^^^^^ I would argue this exactly

Also people commenting about runners being thin and sprinters being muscular are missing an important point. The people they are talking about specifically shape their bodies to be in the best physical form for their event. Sprinters need a lot (a hell of a lot) of type II muscle, low body fat to give a high power to weight ratio. Long distance runners need type I muscle and a high overall body mass to power ratio so they don't want to be carrying around a lot of upper body muscle. It doesn't mean they couldn't build a lot of muscle it means that if they did they would be at the back of the pack. If you look at Triathlon athletes, these guys and girls will do a lot of cardio (a standard length tri is mainly cardio in nature) but they are usually midway between marathon lean and sprinter bulked - because the different activities need upper as well as lower body strength.

TexasOFT76

Good topic and discussion. I enjoy cardio and am at a point where I want to incorporate more weights to increase muscle without totally sacrificing cardio. I've reduced cardio (running/elliptical) slightly in the last few weeks and started some weight routines. But am unsure how to balance it out properly. Learning a lot from all your replies so thanks and thanks to OP for starting the discussion.

RGv2

Good topic and discussion. I enjoy cardio and am at a point where I want to incorporate more weights to increase muscle without totally sacrificing cardio. I've reduced cardio (running/elliptical) slightly in the last few weeks and started some weight routines. But am unsure how to balance it out properly. Learning a lot from all your replies so thanks and thanks to OP for starting the discussion.

The weight routines aren't going to build muscle without the proper diet of eating at TDEE, a bit of a surplus, maybe a bit of a deficit.

tigersword

Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.

Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.

This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.

I thought this was because being jacked was helpful if you are a sprinter, but being light and lean was helpful if you are a long distance runner.

If you do cardio won't you use up your glycogen reserves first, then body fat, THEN (as a last resort, when the other two are depleted) muscle?

No, you never use just one fuel source. It's always a combination of them, just in varying degrees. It all depends on how fit you are and how used to the workout type you are. Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it. It's expensive to maintain and heavy to carry around, but used as fuel for exercise? Not so much. Takes too long to convert to fuel for short term cardio use.

Tell Chris Hoy that he shouldn't do cardio:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2177954/Olympics-2012-Chris-Hoy-His-intense-workout-regime-diet.html

The body does not use muscle for fuel. What the body does is break down the protein you eat for fuel (gluconeogenesis to restore glycogen is actually faster than oxidizing fat) when you deplete glycogen stores. Constant lifting and constant cardio can lead to overtraining and glycogen depletion. When the body is using the protein you eat for fuel (due to the volume and intensity of workouts) then the body doesn't have enough protein to maintain the muscle, so when muscle IS broken down (as it is regularly due to normal metabolic maintenance) there's no protein to rebuild it.

BeachGingerOnTheRocks

If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.

You're not likely to see any Ronnie Colemans or anything, but jacked? Absolutely. I was surprised with the body compositions of some of the Ironman competitors.

As for what you do for cardio, volleyball is anaerobic, not steady state. You're not likely to go into catabolic state playing volleyball.

I know a couple pro bodybuilders who start their mornings with a 30 minute to 1 hour run. Particularly in the lead-up to competition. One of the personal trainers at my last gym was a pro, and I met her while out for a beach run. I regularly saw pros running along the beach when competitions were at the facility down the road from where I lived.

You can most definitely do cardio. Just make sure you're still eating at a surplus.

starbucksbuzz

re: OP - basically you are buring calories that you could be turning into muscle when you do cardio while you bulk. As others have said you defintiely can do it, just make sure you're eating enough.

As for women putting on muscle I must have put on 5-6lbs this year. Went from squatting with dumbbells to squatting 155. I can see a difference too. It's great. It totally depends on genetics, what you eat, and training though. Personally I do cardio when I want to eat more and / or am hoping to lower my bf%. (still make sure I get plenty of protein to support my lean muscle mass though.)

ElliottTN

Currently training for a marathon and I am not exactly on the skinny side.

You can do cardio and build muscle, you just got to understand some fundamentals. Steady state cardio is not your enemy for muscle growth, calorie deficits and nutritional timing are when it comes to cardio.

Timshel_

Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.

Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.

This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.

First off, cardio itself is NOT a catalyst or deterrent to bulking.

I understand this logic, but I have to question the premise. The comparison is tough because marathon runners have a lean body mass goal for endurance and not strength, so they do not even try and bulk. What would be interesting is seeing a study done where marathon runners start adding heavy weight lifting. Could they bulk? I would be willing to bet they could with the proper diet. Although that mix would almost certainly change their endurance, as well as adding extra weight to move over a longer time.

Sprinters NEED muscle mass to help move their frame quickly, so they include heavy weights, or more often other strength training.

I guess my point is, it is NOT the cardio in those examples, but the goals that really dictate the results. The issue is the amount of time one can spend exercising needs to be weighed against the goals. THAT is the truth of it. If your goal is to bulk, and you have a couple hours a day for exercise, the majority of your time is going to be doing strength training with a little cardio to keep the cardiopulmonary system healthy. If your goal is sport related and you have the same two hours, your routine would depend on the balance between endurance, strength, and agility you need to compete. If you are looking for simple, healthy lifestyle changes or getting started losing weight, and you have the same two hours for exercise a day, you might lean more towards cardio, doing walks, hikes, etc.

Again, cardio itself is NOT a catalyst or deterrent to building muscle. All depends on the goal.

trojan_bb

If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.

You're not likely to see any Ronnie Colemans or anything, but jacked? Absolutely. I was surprised with the body compositions of some of the Ironman competitors.

As for what you do for cardio, volleyball is anaerobic, not steady state. You're not likely to go into catabolic state playing volleyball.

I know a couple pro bodybuilders who start their mornings with a 30 minute to 1 hour run. Particularly in the lead-up to competition. One of the personal trainers at my last gym was a pro, and I met her while out for a beach run. I regularly saw pros running along the beach when competitions were at the facility down the road from where I lived.

You can most definitely do cardio. Just make sure you're still eating at a surplus.

No, you won't. There is not one jacked marathoner alive. Most men would have a VERY different idea of jacked than you. 180lbs, 5'10, and lean is not jacked. It's slightly muscled. And these are the genetic elite, the rest of the marathoners have incredibly low amounts of muscle mass. There are a FEW world class sprinters that are heavily muscled. A FEW. And not one marathoner. There are couple of marathoners with above average size and that's it.

Every instance of physical activity impairs recovery. Recovery dictates muscle gain. And caloric surplus does not completely mitigate this.

Of course, these marathoners aren't training for maximum mass. But I know a number of them perform solid lifting programs and eat a surplus. They would be holding much more mass if not for their daily runs.

You can even see the difference in muscle fullness and recovery when you do cardio. It's obvious. 10 minutes of HIIT or a 30 minute walk dont make a difference but ask any weightlifter what a 4 mile run at decent speed does. It's self evident.

And when you mention your female pro at your gym...let's be clear here, there are several classes in women's physique/bodybuilding. Being a pro female competitor does not require much muscle mass except in one division. And there are very few women in that division. There are literally dozens of pro female competitors with really low amounts of muscle, even by female standards. A pro female fitness competitor can get away with tons of cardio and a little muscle loss. It won't hurt their placing. Most of them even get marked down for too much muscle or coming in too conditioned. It's a totally different game.

astronomicals

You can do cardio and build muscle, you just got to understand some fundamentals. Steady state cardio is not your enemy for muscle growth, calorie deficits and nutritional timing are when it comes to cardio.

Thats my understanding.... Beside maintaining a surplus the main issue is recovery... Both cardio and strength training are catabolic. That is a fact. The goal is to have MPS (muscle protein synthesis) in excess of the loss, thus, a net gain. Do too much intense cardio along with intense training and you'll have a net loss. Im not sure how much walking you;d have to do to create an issue with recovery. I always thought walking actually helped me recover faster.

Its all a matter of your ability to recover, so long as you maintain your surplus. There is a tipping point. You can't adapt to unlimited levels of stress and expect to result in a net gain because you maintained the surplus of calories. Thats just wishful thinking. Surely, some people adapt to pretty high levels of "work" without having a catabolic effect, but, thats conditioning and endurance, its not optimal muscle gaining protocols.

This all leads into overtraining and developing injuries. Im surprised nobody has said this yet. WTF people.


A final note. Ive cut out nearly all cardio during a bulk before and the drop in conditioning level hurt my lifts. I began to get winded lifting and I sweat a lot more. In turn my numbers dropped as well. I think cutting out cardio all together is a horrible idea (it certainly is for me). Just keep it reasonable.

Capt_Apollo

If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.

jacked? no, probably not.

low body fat and defined muscles, yes. but jacked? nope.

csuhar

Muscle is a last resort fuel, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it.

This is the takeaway I've gotten from a number of places where they talk about losing muscle with cardiio. It seems to be a matter of losing muscle that isn't used. Because traditional steady-state cardio doesn't use all types of muscle, if you focus on just cardio the muscles you don't use will shrink. It's not the cardio that casues it, but lack of use.