Trying to gain muscle. Why no cardio?

ajaxe432

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

Some accurate stuff you posted...but some not...carefull what you call bad advice.

Springfield1970

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat. Over that and your body just cannot burn fat fast enough and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up, you will start to break down muscle. Sorry! It happened to me, doing far too much sprinting for triathlon training, without a good enough base fitness (we are talking 22 min 5ks-fast), bit of a calorie deficit and BAM. Loss of LBM and to top it off, FAT gain from small periods of over eating.

Springfield1970

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat. Over that and your body just cannot burn fat fast enough and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up, you will start to break down muscle. Sorry! It happened to me, doing far too much sprinting for triathlon training, without a good enough base fitness (we are talking 22 min 5ks-fast), bit of a calorie deficit and BAM. Loss of LBM and to top it off, FAT gain from small periods of over eating.


Ps I'd always always be careful about jumping to conclusions here. Been burned a couple times. Good learning though!

Jesus... Edit...quote...grrrr

Fithealthyforlife

If you ever have the good fortune to make it to Kona, Hawaii in October for the Ironman, you will most certainly see some jacked marathoners.

You're not likely to see any Ronnie Colemans or anything, but jacked? Absolutely. I was surprised with the body compositions of some of the Ironman competitors.

As for what you do for cardio, volleyball is anaerobic, not steady state. You're not likely to go into catabolic state playing volleyball.

I know a couple pro bodybuilders who start their mornings with a 30 minute to 1 hour run. Particularly in the lead-up to competition. One of the personal trainers at my last gym was a pro, and I met her while out for a beach run. I regularly saw pros running along the beach when competitions were at the facility down the road from where I lived.

You can most definitely do cardio. Just make sure you're still eating at a surplus.

Absolutely there are muscular distance runners! Even moreso for shorter "long-distance" races. I've noticed that like 20-25% of men who run 5Ks have big upper bodies. And about a third to half the women have big/defined thighs and calves. And a few men/women runners have big/jacked whole bodies and balanced, muscular physiques.

JoRocka

Currently training for a marathon and I am not exactly on the skinny side.

You can do cardio and build muscle, you just got to understand some fundamentals. Steady state cardio is not your enemy for muscle growth, calorie deficits and nutritional timing are when it comes to cardio.

this is pretty much the biggest issue though. stead state cardio does great things for weight loss- it creates a larger calorie deficit.

it also does the same thing for bulking- but the down side of this is- it means you have to eat more. which is why it can be harder to fit in.

Cardio means more food- if you are already struggling with getting a surplus- then adding more cardio isn't going to be doing yourself any favors. ... even if you LOVE cardio.

EXACLTY. Cardio = more food. Which is mother-flippin awesome.

mhmmmm beer.

some days it's awesome- and some days I'm like- it's 12 AM... I do NOT want to eat 800 more caloires- seriously- I just don't. So I don't.

Then the next day I eat like 3000 and call it square full of win.

Absolutely there are muscular distance runners! Even moreso for shorter "long-distance" races. I've noticed that like 20-25% of men who run 5Ks have big upper bodies. And about a third to half the women have big/defined thighs and calves. And a few men/women runners have big/jacked whole bodies and balanced, muscular physiques.

mmmmmhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh

5k you can get by with almost anything. It's not really distance- it's like a long gut it out if you aren't in shape- or a training thing if you are a runner. It's distance if you sprint 60-100 yards or whatever- but in the world of running- 5k's are barely training races.
I don't think it's fair to say 5K runners can have muscular frames- it's just not even the same ball of wax- it's like talking oranges and ice cream.

terizius

I'm not sure if this was posted yet or not, but here's a great article on performing cardio while gaining mass.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/cardio-and-mass-gains.html

Here's the summary if you don't want to read the entire article:

"So summing up, under most circumstances, I think keeping a reasonable amount of moderate intensity cardio in the training program, even when the goal is explicitly mass gaining can be beneficial for most trainees (the major exception being the extreme hardgainer types)."

But, I think there is something more for the OP to consider.. you state that you want to gain some muscle, but your true goal is to gain more power. Power (strength over time) is created primarily by the fast twitch muscle fibers. However, low to medium intensity steady-state cardio uses Type I muscle fibers where high intensity exercises use primarily Type II muscle fibers (IIa and IIb). Research is mixed, but indicates that the body can "transform" the Type IIa (intermediate) fibers into slow twitch when slow and steady cardio is performed regularly.

So, with that being said, cardio during mass-building is fine - in fact there are numerous benefits. However, excessive slow, steady-state cardio may have a negative impact on your power generation in the long run. Just some things to think about.

Fithealthyforlife

I'm not sure if this was posted yet or not, but here's a great article on performing cardio while gaining mass.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/cardio-and-mass-gains.html

Here's the summary if you don't want to read the entire article:

"So summing up, under most circumstances, I think keeping a reasonable amount of moderate intensity cardio in the training program, even when the goal is explicitly mass gaining can be beneficial for most trainees (the major exception being the extreme hardgainer types)."

But, I think there is something more for the OP to consider.. you state that you want to gain some muscle, but your true goal is to gain more power. Power (strength over time) is created primarily by the fast twitch muscle fibers. However, low to medium intensity steady-state cardio uses Type I muscle fibers where high intensity exercises use primarily Type II muscle fibers (IIa and IIb). Research is mixed, but indicates that the body can "transform" the Type IIa (intermediate) fibers into slow twitch when slow and steady cardio is performed regularly.

So, with that being said, cardio during mass-building is fine - in fact there are numerous benefits. However, excessive slow, steady-state cardio may have a negative impact on your power generation in the long run. Just some things to think about.

What does the research say about the fibers going the other direction? One would think that if they can go one direction, they could also go the other. Or is it that once they're slow twitch, they can never be intermediate again?

terizius

I'll try to do some more research and make sure, but from my understanding, the Type IIa fibers respond to the training stimulus. In other words, they change to more slow or fast type depending on how you are using them. I'm not sure how long it takes for that change to take place, or what happens once if you simply stop training. Hopefully have more info soon.

Mr_Knight

As long as you're a genetic freak......right?

Like all elite athletes, he of course has great genetics.

But that's not where the muscling comes from - he's 6'1" and only carrying ~160 pounds of LBM, which is well within the parameters of normal.

terizius

Ok, here's what I found from this site - http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/81/11/1810.long

"Regardless of the classification scheme used to group muscle fibers, there is overwhelming evidence that muscle fibers—and therefore motor units—not only change in size in response to demands, but they can also convert from one type to another.2,18,19 This plasticity in contractile and metabolic properties in response to stimuli (eg, training and rehabilitation) allows for adaptation to different functional demands.2 Fiber conversions between type IIB and type IIA are the most common, but type I to type II conversions are possible in cases of severe deconditioning or spinal cord injury (SCI).2,20"

So, muscles definitely change types, and the change can happen both ways.

Fithealthyforlife

Ok, here's what I found from this site - http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/81/11/1810.long

"Regardless of the classification scheme used to group muscle fibers, there is overwhelming evidence that muscle fibers—and therefore motor units—not only change in size in response to demands, but they can also convert from one type to another.2,18,19 This plasticity in contractile and metabolic properties in response to stimuli (eg, training and rehabilitation) allows for adaptation to different functional demands.2 Fiber conversions between type IIB and type IIA are the most common, but type I to type II conversions are possible in cases of severe deconditioning or spinal cord injury (SCI).2,20"

So, muscles definitely change types, and the change can happen both ways.

Sounds good. I figured it had to be reversible. Biological systems don't generally move in just one direction.

Fithealthyforlife

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat. Over that and your body just cannot burn fat fast enough and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up, you will start to break down muscle. Sorry! It happened to me, doing far too much sprinting for triathlon training, without a good enough base fitness (we are talking 22 min 5ks-fast), bit of a calorie deficit and BAM. Loss of LBM and to top it off, FAT gain from small periods of over eating.

You're right. Now that I think about it, I learned this in biochemistry. But I think the key is that glycogen is used up. Most people don't run down to empty routinely. It's unfortunate to hear that it happened to you. At least you're aware of it now and are able to avoid it in the future.

Springfield1970

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat. Over that and your body just cannot burn fat fast enough and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up, you will start to break down muscle. Sorry! It happened to me, doing far too much sprinting for triathlon training, without a good enough base fitness (we are talking 22 min 5ks-fast), bit of a calorie deficit and BAM. Loss of LBM and to top it off, FAT gain from small periods of over eating.

You're right. Now that I think about it, I learned this in biochemistry. But I think the key is that glycogen is used up. Most people don't run down to empty routinely. It's unfortunate to hear that it happened to you. At least you're aware of it now and are able to avoid it in the future.

Here's where it gets freaky. Now that I have more muscle, I can store more glycogen, and I could do all the same things and not go so catabolic. The other thing is I can train myself to go faster aerobically, and that higher level of fitness means meow fat burning and less catabolism. But this is early days for me. My fitness has plumetted since bulking started in November, but my body is pretty much where I want it to be. The bulk has really changed things for me.

I think and have read that the less fit you are (lower vo2 max) the less engines (muscle) containing glycogen you have, the more likely you are to bonk quicker, say only an hour. Also the more fat you carry, the more horsepower you need to oxygenate that ballast. This is what sent me here to MFP in the first place. To get a higher strength to power ratio (lose the fat).

Mr_Knight

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat.

By the time the body gets to LT, it is already long past the "fuel from fat" point. Even plain old walking requires more energy than can be supplied through fat metabolism (except for obese individuals).

...and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up...

Glycogen stores are typically sufficient to support 1-2 hours of solid running, depending on the individual and running speed.

rrowdiness

Have you ever seen a jacked marathoner? no.

Have you seen jacked sprinters? yes.

This is because long,steady state cardio wears/breaks down and uses muscle as fuel.

That's why body builders do 'incline' walk and some light-medium cardio on an empty stomach 3 x / week for no more than 30 min.

Errr...bit selective looking at just runners mate.

There is a benefit to distance runners not carrying as much weight, as there is for distance cyclists. Anywhere where you have to carry weight a long distance, the longer you're competing the greater the benefit of being very light.

If weight carriage is negated - ie swimming where the body is supported by water - there is less benefit to being lighter / leaner.
Swimmers of all distances are pretty muscular. ie 1500m / 3km swimmers still carry a ****load of muscle.

Swimmers still do a ****load of cardio. At the local pool the squad do a minimum of 8km per day, essentially 2 hours intense cardio, 5 days per week. and they look like frickin supermodels.

Triathletes (olympic distance and up - 1km / 50km / 10km) are also pretty bulky in comparison to marathoners and road cyclists.

Ironman triathletes tend to be leaner and closer to the distance runner physique but still relatively bulky.

SteveJWatson

OMG so much bad advice here.
You are not going to lose muscle if you are using it until the vast majority of your fat stores are diminished this occurs once you reach around 4% body fat (for men, higher for women).
You can do cardio - for now to get any excess fat off but once its low then you will need to decrease the amount of cardio you do - not because your body is going to eat your muscle but because you will have to eat a substantial amount in order to GAIN muscle.

No, if you stay with below lactate threshold you will burn fat. Over that and your body just cannot burn fat fast enough and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up, you will start to break down muscle. Sorry! It happened to me, doing far too much sprinting for triathlon training, without a good enough base fitness (we are talking 22 min 5ks-fast), bit of a calorie deficit and BAM. Loss of LBM and to top it off, FAT gain from small periods of over eating.

You're right. Now that I think about it, I learned this in biochemistry. But I think the key is that glycogen is used up. Most people don't run down to empty routinely. It's unfortunate to hear that it happened to you. At least you're aware of it now and are able to avoid it in the future.

Here's where it gets freaky. Now that I have more muscle, I can store more glycogen, and I could do all the same things and not go so catabolic. The other thing is I can train myself to go faster aerobically, and that higher level of fitness means meow fat burning and less catabolism. But this is early days for me. My fitness has plumetted since bulking started in November, but my body is pretty much where I want it to be. The bulk has really changed things for me.

I think and have read that the less fit you are (lower vo2 max) the less engines (muscle) containing glycogen you have, the more likely you are to bonk quicker, say only an hour. Also the more fat you carry, the more horsepower you need to oxygenate that ballast. This is what sent me here to MFP in the first place. To get a higher strength to power ratio (lose the fat).

Odd - now that I'm at the end of my cut I notice my 'power' dropping off...like I can catch someoene but its a real effort to then tackle them...

Hopefully bulking will get my speed and power back to where they were.

eating4me

I'm also trying to gain muscle right now; just in for the thread.

__Di__

...and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up...

Roughly 20 miles of running can be run before glycogen is used up - this will be when the runner hits the wall, but not all runners hit it, it depends on how the run is performed from setting out.

20 miles of running can take four hours or more in some peoples' case, it all depends on how fast they run of course.

This puts paid to the ridiculous claims that 15 or 20 mins of continuous cardio will suddenly make people eat into their muscles lmao.

After glycogen is used up, the body turns to fat to get energy, and the human body, even in the most slimmest of runners, contains enough fuel in fat to carry for another 600 - yes SIX HUNDRED miles.

It is the most amazing piece of biological machinery.

tigersword

...and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up...

Roughly 20 miles of running can be run before glycogen is used up - this will be when the runner hits the wall, but not all runners hit it, it depends on how the run is performed from setting out.

20 miles of running can take four hours or more in some peoples' case, it all depends on how fast they run of course.

This puts paid to the ridiculous claims that 15 or 20 mins of continuous cardio will suddenly make people eat into their muscles lmao.

After glycogen is used up, the body turns to fat to get energy, and the human body, even in the most slimmest of runners, contains enough fuel in fat to carry for another 600 - yes SIX HUNDRED miles.

It is the most amazing piece of biological machinery.

Without sources and citations, this is just another "ridiculous claim."

Springfield1970

...and then if your liver and muscle glycogen is used up...

Roughly 20 miles of running can be run before glycogen is used up - this will be when the runner hits the wall, but not all runners hit it, it depends on how the run is performed from setting out.

20 miles of running can take four hours or more in some peoples' case, it all depends on how fast they run of course.

This puts paid to the ridiculous claims that 15 or 20 mins of continuous cardio will suddenly make people eat into their muscles lmao.

After glycogen is used up, the body turns to fat to get energy, and the human body, even in the most slimmest of runners, contains enough fuel in fat to carry for another 600 - yes SIX HUNDRED miles.

It is the most amazing piece of biological machinery.

What ARE you talking about? Is this something someone told you maybe? Or did you dream it?
Think about this, what happens when the body can't burn fat fast enough to keep up then? Ie in the higher heart rate zones and over threshold? Why do athletes hit the wall, bonk, use gels, glucose?