Paleo = dying young?
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I wouldn't mind Paleo so much if you didn't have to spend twice as much on food or have to go slaughter the animals yourself because you can't find it in the grocery store... Or that they like to base their belief on the idea that agriculture is what is making us fat... depsite the fact that society has used and depended on agriculture for 10,000 years and only the last 30 is how long we have been battling obesity.
Coinciding with PE and recess disappearing from schools, parents not allowing their children to just go outside and play all day, the Internet and more time spent in front of video games.
But it must be the wheat. ;-)
I think those are contributors too, without a doubt. But we've never seen such a high rate of insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and metabolic disorders as in the past. PE, recess and the internet aren't causing that in adults. Things like trans fat, high fructose corn syrup, etc. are also contributors without a doubt. But, I think wheat and grains are as well as there has been a notable increase in their consumption in the last 100 years or so as well.
Interesting, without a doubt? So why does paleo preach eating higher trans fat cuts of beef ie grassfed beef?
I believe it's because there is a difference between the naturally occurring transfat (CLA specifically) you see in grass-fed beef as opposed to those created industrially by hydrogenating vegetable oils. Small chemical structure differences, but have huge different effects on the body. Plus, the overall benefit of the omega 3-6 ratio you see in grass-fed as opposed to grain-fed beef.
http://chriskresser.com/can-some-trans-fats-be-healthy
Ah but you just said without a doubt trans fat to be a contributor.0 -
His point was paleo is based on a logical fallacy.
Ninerbuff doesn't need to prove anything to nayone and so far your contributions are meh. lolCavemen also drank untreated water, and hunted for their food daily, sucked marrow out of bones, and scavenged when they had to......................................................I'm betting no paleo person on here does that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wow. And you're supposed to be a personal/fitness trainer. This may be one of the stupidest comments I've seen in a while. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the nutritional plan WHATSOEVER. Way to be bring asinine to the party.
No one needs to prove anything. I'm just asking for logical statements. Disagree all you want. But saying something totally nonsensical is stupid. Tomatoes are red. True, but who cares?
And I'm sure Ninerbuff is a big boy and can fight his own battles if he chooses to do so.0 -
I don't disagree with you. More activity means you can eat more, and you can probably get away with the more carbs specifically. But, if people are more sedentary (which I agree is the case in the US), then how much you eat becomes all that more important because you don't have the margin created by the increase in exercise. Those same sedentary people that go Paleo and lowish carb will not be as obese.
FIFY0 -
Well then we shouldn't be comparing a paleo diet to a caveman.
Cavemen didn't have agriculture so they weren't eating fruits and veggies in any significant quantities.Uh...cavemen more likely died because of natural causes or lack of medical care (thanks Obama!) than high cholesterol. The fiber from all of the fruits and vegetables they ate likely cancelled out any cholesterol from the red meats.0 -
Also, contributors -- though I think the industrial revolution in the mid 1800s, the level of sedentary jobs hasn't increased at the same rate as obesity in this country. And a lot of those nutrient shallow, high calorie foods are filled with sugar substitutes and grain-based carbs. Coincidence?
Do you have data for that claim? What about when you factor in rises in TV viewing, video gaming, and computer use time?
Bottom line is that obesity has risen because people move less and eat more. People move less because jobs are more sedentary and indoor, sit-on-your-butt leisure activities such as HDTV and internet have increased. People eat more because calories are more delicious, more convenient, and cheaper now than they have ever been throughout human history.
There's no mystery here. It's not toxins or demon nutrients that are making people fat. It's sitting on your butt more and eating more. The solution therefore is, as always, to move more and eat less.
So you think diet does matter at all? That all calories are created equal for everyone? That it's a strict calorie deficit issue? That what people eat literally doesn't matter?
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong. For some, it may not matter -- they're those lucky people that have a naturally awesome metabolism that can handle all the various permutation. But for others, it most certainly matters -- those with insulin resistance, food sensitivities/allergies, metabolic issues, thyroid issues, etc. Their bodies have very different or more extreme physiological responses to such things so what their calories are made of make a HUGE difference. And I suspect, and this is purely my speculation, that a lot of folks who are obese in this country have such underlying issues. And that's why purely counting calories is not effective for them.0 -
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong.
Oh. That settles that.0 -
I wouldn't mind Paleo so much if you didn't have to spend twice as much on food or have to go slaughter the animals yourself because you can't find it in the grocery store... Or that they like to base their belief on the idea that agriculture is what is making us fat... depsite the fact that society has used and depended on agriculture for 10,000 years and only the last 30 is how long we have been battling obesity.
Coinciding with PE and recess disappearing from schools, parents not allowing their children to just go outside and play all day, the Internet and more time spent in front of video games.
But it must be the wheat. ;-)
I think those are contributors too, without a doubt. But we've never seen such a high rate of insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and metabolic disorders as in the past. PE, recess and the internet aren't causing that in adults. Things like trans fat, high fructose corn syrup, etc. are also contributors without a doubt. But, I think wheat and grains are as well as there has been a notable increase in their consumption in the last 100 years or so as well.
Interesting, without a doubt? So why does paleo preach eating higher trans fat cuts of beef ie grassfed beef?
I believe it's because there is a difference between the naturally occurring transfat (CLA specifically) you see in grass-fed beef as opposed to those created industrially by hydrogenating vegetable oils. Small chemical structure differences, but have huge different effects on the body. Plus, the overall benefit of the omega 3-6 ratio you see in grass-fed as opposed to grain-fed beef.
http://chriskresser.com/can-some-trans-fats-be-healthy
Ah but you just said without a doubt trans fat to be a contributor.
Then let me be more specific. Industrially created non-natural transfat is no doubt a contributor. I thought that was implicit in the statement, but since you're splitting hairs, I'll be more explicit.0 -
lol, maybe you missed this part. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.Also, contributors -- though I think the industrial revolution in the mid 1800s, the level of sedentary jobs hasn't increased at the same rate as obesity in this country. And a lot of those nutrient shallow, high calorie foods are filled with sugar substitutes and grain-based carbs. Coincidence?
Do you have data for that claim? What about when you factor in rises in TV viewing, video gaming, and computer use time?
Bottom line is that obesity has risen because people move less and eat more. People move less because jobs are more sedentary and indoor, sit-on-your-butt leisure activities such as HDTV and internet have increased. People eat more because calories are more delicious, more convenient, and cheaper now than they have ever been throughout human history.
There's no mystery here. It's not toxins or demon nutrients that are making people fat. It's sitting on your butt more and eating more. The solution therefore is, as always, to move more and eat less.
So you think diet does matter at all? That all calories are created equal for everyone? That it's a strict calorie deficit issue? That what people eat literally doesn't matter?
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong. For some, it may not matter -- they're those lucky people that have a naturally awesome metabolism that can handle all the various permutation. But for others, it most certainly matters -- those with insulin resistance, food sensitivities/allergies, metabolic issues, thyroid issues, etc. Their bodies have very different or more extreme physiological responses to such things so what their calories are made of make a HUGE difference. And I suspect, and this is purely my speculation, that a lot of folks who are obese in this country have such underlying issues. And that's why purely counting calories is not effective for them.0 -
His point was paleo is based on a logical fallacy.
Ninerbuff doesn't need to prove anything to nayone and so far your contributions are meh. lolCavemen also drank untreated water, and hunted for their food daily, sucked marrow out of bones, and scavenged when they had to......................................................I'm betting no paleo person on here does that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wow. And you're supposed to be a personal/fitness trainer. This may be one of the stupidest comments I've seen in a while. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the nutritional plan WHATSOEVER. Way to be bring asinine to the party.
No one needs to prove anything. I'm just asking for logical statements. Disagree all you want. But saying something totally nonsensical is stupid. Tomatoes are red. True, but who cares?
And I'm sure Ninerbuff is a big boy and can fight his own battles if he chooses to do so.
Well, that's where I disagree then. Is it one hundred percent perfect? No. But there is definitely logic behind its nutritional basis and the physiological responses in the body, and is particularly important for people with certain issues (whether it was designed for those specific purposes or not).0 -
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong.
Oh. That settles that.
Well, you could read about it. See how grain based carbs and certain sugars affect insulin response and fat storage, both in "normal" individuals and those with insulin resistance. You could read about the affect of omega 3 vs omega 6 fatty acids found in foods and cholesterol. But, so far, I've seen nothing from you about any such things -- just conclusory statements that all that matters is calories in and calories out.0 -
lol, maybe you missed this part. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.Also, contributors -- though I think the industrial revolution in the mid 1800s, the level of sedentary jobs hasn't increased at the same rate as obesity in this country. And a lot of those nutrient shallow, high calorie foods are filled with sugar substitutes and grain-based carbs. Coincidence?
Do you have data for that claim? What about when you factor in rises in TV viewing, video gaming, and computer use time?
Bottom line is that obesity has risen because people move less and eat more. People move less because jobs are more sedentary and indoor, sit-on-your-butt leisure activities such as HDTV and internet have increased. People eat more because calories are more delicious, more convenient, and cheaper now than they have ever been throughout human history.
There's no mystery here. It's not toxins or demon nutrients that are making people fat. It's sitting on your butt more and eating more. The solution therefore is, as always, to move more and eat less.
So you think diet does matter at all? That all calories are created equal for everyone? That it's a strict calorie deficit issue? That what people eat literally doesn't matter?
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong. For some, it may not matter -- they're those lucky people that have a naturally awesome metabolism that can handle all the various permutation. But for others, it most certainly matters -- those with insulin resistance, food sensitivities/allergies, metabolic issues, thyroid issues, etc. Their bodies have very different or more extreme physiological responses to such things so what their calories are made of make a HUGE difference. And I suspect, and this is purely my speculation, that a lot of folks who are obese in this country have such underlying issues. And that's why purely counting calories is not effective for them.
No, I actually agree with that part. But it also affects weight, fat storage and muscle development issues. Calories in and calories out are not the same for everyone because some people's bodies respond differently.0 -
Cavemen didn't have agriculture so they weren't eating fruits and veggies in any significant quantities.Uh...cavemen more likely died because of natural causes or lack of medical care (thanks Obama!) than high cholesterol. The fiber from all of the fruits and vegetables they ate likely cancelled out any cholesterol from the red meats.
I'm not so sure about this. Probably depends on the area of the world you're discussing. Gathering certainly played a big part in the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. And I'm sure there were times when meat/animals were very scarce and so all they survived on were the results of foraging -- fruits, vegetables, seeds, etc.0 -
Believer= cherry pick data, disregard what doesn't align with my thinking and make grand generalizations that might cover said *kitten*. Ok, gotcha.
His point was paleo is based on a logical fallacy.
Ninerbuff doesn't need to prove anything to nayone and so far your contributions are meh. lolCavemen also drank untreated water, and hunted for their food daily, sucked marrow out of bones, and scavenged when they had to......................................................I'm betting no paleo person on here does that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wow. And you're supposed to be a personal/fitness trainer. This may be one of the stupidest comments I've seen in a while. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the nutritional plan WHATSOEVER. Way to be bring asinine to the party.
No one needs to prove anything. I'm just asking for logical statements. Disagree all you want. But saying something totally nonsensical is stupid. Tomatoes are red. True, but who cares?
And I'm sure Ninerbuff is a big boy and can fight his own battles if he chooses to do so.
Well, that's where I disagree then. Is it one hundred percent perfect? No. But there is definitely logic behind its nutritional basis and the physiological responses in the body, and is particularly important for people with certain issues (whether it was designed for those specific purposes or not).0 -
Believer= cherry pick data, disregard what doesn't align with my thinking and make grand generalizations that might cover said *kitten*. Ok, gotcha.
His point was paleo is based on a logical fallacy.
Ninerbuff doesn't need to prove anything to nayone and so far your contributions are meh. lolCavemen also drank untreated water, and hunted for their food daily, sucked marrow out of bones, and scavenged when they had to......................................................I'm betting no paleo person on here does that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wow. And you're supposed to be a personal/fitness trainer. This may be one of the stupidest comments I've seen in a while. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the nutritional plan WHATSOEVER. Way to be bring asinine to the party.
No one needs to prove anything. I'm just asking for logical statements. Disagree all you want. But saying something totally nonsensical is stupid. Tomatoes are red. True, but who cares?
And I'm sure Ninerbuff is a big boy and can fight his own battles if he chooses to do so.
Well, that's where I disagree then. Is it one hundred percent perfect? No. But there is definitely logic behind its nutritional basis and the physiological responses in the body, and is particularly important for people with certain issues (whether it was designed for those specific purposes or not).
If you want to think it's cherry picking data, fine. I think the data shows an important trend --one that will only be further developed with more studies. Is it definitive or conclusive? No, but almost nothing in the scientific community relating to the body is because we still have so much to learn about the body's processes.
If you want to reject it, that's fine. Your prerogative. But, to pretend that there is no logical basis is simply wrong. One you may not agree with is different. Reasonable and logical people can have different opinions and draw different conclusions from the same fact set. That doesn't necessarily negate the other as being reasonable or logical.0 -
Aside from the untreated water, and the term "daily"... that's what I do. I just won't get into the derpy paleo trend thing. Sometimes, just sometimes, you want to mop up that beautiful marrow with a little finger of sourdough while drinking a badass quart of ale.Cavemen also drank untreated water, and hunted for their food daily, sucked marrow out of bones, and scavenged when they had to......................................................I'm betting no paleo person on here does that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I do like how this thread has gone full ****show though.0 -
Not sure what you're getting at. Weight gain versus weight loss is a matter of calorie surplus or deficit only, yes.
What people eat to get those calories literally doesn't matter at all for weight loss or gain. What food you get those calories from has a significant impact on body composition, hormone levels, satiety, etc.
Well, you're just wrong.
Oh. That settles that.
Well, you could read about it. See how grain based carbs and certain sugars affect insulin response and fat storage, both in "normal" individuals and those with insulin resistance. You could read about the affect of omega 3 vs omega 6 fatty acids found in foods and cholesterol. But, so far, I've seen nothing from you about any such things -- just conclusory statements that all that matters is calories in and calories out.
Well you only have 40 posts so far, so give it time.0 -
No, I actually agree with that part. But it also affects weight, fat storage and muscle development issues. Calories in and calories out are not the same for everyone because some people's bodies respond differently.
OK, so show me real evidence that two different diets, of identical calorie content, have clinically significant different results in terms of weight for people without diagnosed medical disorders.
I have already said that muscle development and fat storage can be affected by macro intake. But not weight, to any significant degree, in people without disorders.0 -
Also, contributors -- though I think the industrial revolution in the mid 1800s, the level of sedentary jobs hasn't increased at the same rate as obesity in this country. And a lot of those nutrient shallow, high calorie foods are filled with sugar substitutes and grain-based carbs. Coincidence?
Do you have data for that claim? What about when you factor in rises in TV viewing, video gaming, and computer use time?
Bottom line is that obesity has risen because people move less and eat more. People move less because jobs are more sedentary and indoor, sit-on-your-butt leisure activities such as HDTV and internet have increased. People eat more because calories are more delicious, more convenient, and cheaper now than they have ever been throughout human history.
There's no mystery here. It's not toxins or demon nutrients that are making people fat. It's sitting on your butt more and eating more. The solution therefore is, as always, to move more and eat less.
Ironically when people ask me how I lost so much weight, unless they are truly my friend and someone I care about I reply "Eat Less, Move More". I'm lying. I know I'm lying. I don't have time to talk to eveyone who asks about why I look so good in comparison to a couple years ago.
I really don't want to divulge how using MFP paired with Primal diet has cured cronic symptoms, given me more energy and the fat loss is icing on the cake of not being sick. Because they'll start trash talking calorie restriction and Paleo and telling me how much I inspired them in the same sentence.
So I don't. I give a white lie, that is mostly harmless, that I know isn't going to help anyone achieve a damn thing. "Eat less, Move more." My LIE. My LIE I tell people I hardly know or care about.
Think about that.0 -
Also, contributors -- though I think the industrial revolution in the mid 1800s, the level of sedentary jobs hasn't increased at the same rate as obesity in this country. And a lot of those nutrient shallow, high calorie foods are filled with sugar substitutes and grain-based carbs. Coincidence?
Do you have data for that claim? What about when you factor in rises in TV viewing, video gaming, and computer use time?
Bottom line is that obesity has risen because people move less and eat more. People move less because jobs are more sedentary and indoor, sit-on-your-butt leisure activities such as HDTV and internet have increased. People eat more because calories are more delicious, more convenient, and cheaper now than they have ever been throughout human history.
There's no mystery here. It's not toxins or demon nutrients that are making people fat. It's sitting on your butt more and eating more. The solution therefore is, as always, to move more and eat less.
Ironically when people ask me how I lost so much weight, unless they are truly my friend and someone I care about I reply "Eat Less, Move More". I'm lying. I know I'm lying. I don't have time to talk to eveyone who asks about why I look so good in comparison to a couple years ago.
I really don't want to divulge how using MFP paired with Primal diet has cured cronic symptoms, given me more energy and the fat loss is icing on the cake of not being sick. Because they'll start trash talking calorie restriction and Paleo and telling me how much I inspired them in the same sentence.
So I don't. I give a white lie, that is mostly harmless, that I know isn't going to help anyone achieve a damn thing. "Eat less, Move more." My LIE. My LIE I tell people I hardly know or care about.
Think about that.
Can't interpret what you're saying here. Are you saying you lost weight without doing "eat less move more"? From your diary you're counting calories so you seem to be doing the "eat less" part. I agree the "move more" isn't strictly necessary but it helps.
What's the lie?
Also, not sure how you can even claim you're doing Primal. I picked a random day in your diary and see almost 1000 calories of cake from Walmart. The previous day has Reese's Peanut Butter Cups and more cake from Walmart (twice). I'm no Primal expert but I'm pretty sure cake, cake icing, and PB Cups aren't it.0 -
No, I actually agree with that part. But it also affects weight, fat storage and muscle development issues. Calories in and calories out are not the same for everyone because some people's bodies respond differently.
OK, so show me real evidence that two different diets, of identical calorie content, have clinically significant different results in terms of weight for people without diagnosed medical disorders.
I have already said that muscle development and fat storage can be affected by macro intake. But not weight, to any significant degree, in people without disorders.
I don't know of a study like that in particular. Just pieces that lead to that conclusion. And, as I said before, I think a lot of obese people in this country likely have an undiagnosed "disorder" which is causing the weight gain -- whether it's thyroid, insulin resistance, etc. I bet that is generally hasn't been an issue until recently because of the change in diet in the last 100 years (or even 10,000 if we're speaking evolutionarily). So, when you aren't eating many grains, the insulin resistance isn't a problem or doesn't develop. But, we've got the same genes for the most part that we had 10,000 years ago, but a drastically different daily diet -- essentially our body's "tools" aren't as effective on the current landscape.0
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