Is calorie-counting different from dieting?

mrbert1968

I agree totally. For most people "diet" implies losing weight, when to me it is simply the foods you eat. One can diet to lose weight, maintain weight, or gain weight. Counting calories is just the math that allows you to adjust what you eat as needed to reach whatever goal you have.

LiftAllThePizzas

Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

BTW my four year old doesn't eat when he needs to and is on the low end of BMI and needs to be told constantly to eat. Even a plate full of birthday cake will sit there untouched. He has been like this since he was born. How do you explain his behavior? Maybe he was counting nutrients in the womb and lost touch with his natural hunger signals, because as you've said we're all identical in all ways.

ayumi_

I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that peoples' hunger/full mechanisms are not all tuned to the exact same amount, because the situation we are dealing with in first world countries (overabundance of calorie-dense foods) is not something our genes have been had to deal with through long-term exposure. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Are you sure about that? Because the majority of overweight people I've read about admit to eating way past fullness, or eating when they know they aren't hungry, for other reasons besides hunger. For most people it doesn't seem like being (physically) hungry for too much food is the problem. It seems like a psychological, "oh this tastes really good so I don't want to stop", type of "hunger" is the issue. Not physiological, stomach grumbling, energy deficit hunger.

The abundance of food is definitely a contributing factor, but simply having lots of cookies around me doesn't force me to eat copious amounts of them. Otherwise nearly everyone who lived near a gas station or fast food joint would be obese & wouldn't stop eating because calorie-dense food is readily available.

ayumi_

Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

BTW my four year old doesn't eat when he needs to and is on the low end of BMI and needs to be told constantly to eat. Even a plate full of birthday cake will sit there untouched. He has been like this since he was born. How do you explain his behavior? Maybe he was counting nutrients in the womb and lost touch with his natural hunger signals, because as you've said we're all identical in all ways.

I'm sure that unless your child has some underlying medical issues, he does eat when he's hungry, just not exactly when YOU want him to. Some children just require less food than others. Some children just eat at weird intervals.

If there are medical issues at hand for your child, then that's different and he is an anomaly.

LiftAllThePizzas

simply having lots of cookies around me doesn't force me to eat copious amounts of them.

Hooray for you. This is exactly the point. Not everyone has the same amount of hunger or is signaled to stop at the same point.

Otherwise nearly everyone who lived near a gas station or fast food joint would be obese & wouldn't stop eating because calorie-dense food is readily available.

That's only true if everyone is identical in this aspect. As I've stated there is no good reason for this to be true. What evidence do you have that all people are?

TavistockToad

I have never understood the people who come to a calorie counting site to tell everyone that calorie counting doesn't work?

If you don't need to do it then great, OP, lucky you, but some people do need to!

angelalf1979

I didn't quote that right.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[/quote]
When you used to eat overly large portions, didn't you feel really full? Wouldn't that alone be enough to tell you to maybe cut down on your portions?
[/quote]

Not usually. It wasn't the amount of food that I ate that was the issue. It was the quality (or lack thereof) of the food I ate. Sure sometimes I would go overboard but that is because I didn't have 91 people looking at what I was eating everyday. And some of us are overweight because our stomachs are larger thus able to fit in larger portions of food and our brains unable to tell us we're full when we should be.

heybales

And yes, many will be calorie counting for a long time - they can't trust their bodies - never should anyway unless you are really knowledgeable about how it can fool you, and work around that.

Can you explain more about why they shouldn't trust their bodies, & how it can fool them?

You can get done with a hard cardio workout, and not feel hungry if you listened to your body.

But if knowledgeable you know that you should eat some carbs soon if you plan on doing another intense workout tomorrow, as you'll take in and restore your glucose stores better the sooner you do it.

You can be focus on some activity so much that you don't feel hungry for well past your normal meal time.
But your body obviously still needs food.
And in fact what many discover is that missing that meal or snack or whatever, sets their next meal up for being a hard challenge not to overeat, like the hunger finally overcompensated.

So listening to your body in both the cases could have you eating too much overall.

You can also start eating so little that your hunger signals will be all off, and despite your body starving for energy, it won't feel hungry.

Much the same way you can be vitamin or mineral deficient in something, and you'll never hear it from your body until down the road a ways and some major symptom shows up requiring a blood test to discover you need to take more of something. Same with energy needs, it can take a while before the symptoms show up you've been underfeeding for your level of activity and more deficient than desired. Obviously need a deficit to lose, but more isn't better.

You can also overeat carbs, get inflated insulin response, blood sugar drops too low, and despite eating enough, you feel hungry, real hungry.

DamePiglet

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

fitandfortyish

ves e]
I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.
[/quote]

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

LiftAllThePizzas

Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

BTW my four year old doesn't eat when he needs to and is on the low end of BMI and needs to be told constantly to eat. Even a plate full of birthday cake will sit there untouched. He has been like this since he was born. How do you explain his behavior? Maybe he was counting nutrients in the womb and lost touch with his natural hunger signals, because as you've said we're all identical in all ways.

I'm sure that unless your child has some underlying medical issues, he does eat when he's hungry, just not exactly when YOU want him to. Some children just require less food than others. Some children just eat at weird intervals.

If there are medical issues at hand for your child, then that's different and he is an anomaly.

Wow, way to 100% ignore the entire point. If he required less food, he wouldn't be on the lower end of BMI, would he? Him following his natural hunger signals leads him to being underweight.

I've raised thousands of baby animals and can tell you they also have a huge variation in appetite. Maybe you can come visit and tell them to pay attention to their bodies.

ayumi_

simply having lots of cookies around me doesn't force me to eat copious amounts of them.

Hooray for you. This is exactly the point. Not everyone has the same amount of hunger or is signaled to stop at the same point.

Otherwise nearly everyone who lived near a gas station or fast food joint would be obese & wouldn't stop eating because calorie-dense food is readily available.

That's only true if everyone is identical in this aspect. As I've stated there is no good reason for this to be true. What evidence do you have that all people are?

See, that's where you are wrong. Everyone is born with PHYSICAL hunger indicators. If there were some hereditary "I can't tell when I'm not hungry anymore" gene, then obesity would not be a new thing. The rate of obesity would have been much more consistent throughout history. You would see much more people in the 1800's who were overweight or obese.

Are you saying that some people feel hungry more than others and it takes more food to make them full, and the amount of food it takes to satisfy their fullness is actually more than their body needs so they become overweight? I don't think that's true. I think that in those cases, people are mistaking other sensations for hunger, or aiming to reach much higher level of fullness with each meal than necessary.

Some of the evidence I have that all people are born knowing how to eat when they're hungry & stop when they're full is simply historical. Calorie counting is an extremely new thing, and far before it existed, the majority of the population knew how to maintain their weights without dieting of any sort. How do you think they were able to do that? Even though they exist more readily today, fatty & sugary foods have always existed. People in the 1800's could go to a bakery and get treats if they wanted them. Why is it that now, suddenly, everyone is now "hungrier" than they used to be?

scubasuenc

I will count calories as long as it has not become a natural way to live. I have to teach it to myself and it takes a very long time... it is a new way of life. I cannot count on myself doing it without a conscious effort. I have a lifetime of bad habits and bad choices to counterbalance...

So why not just try to fix those bad eating habits directly? Why turn to counting calories if it's a crutch you'll have to rely on for the rest of your life in order to maintain a healthy weight?

Wouldn't it be easier to work on fixing the issues that cause you to overeat, and once those issues are addressed, continue eating a reasonable amount for the rest of your life & losing weight steadily that way?

For those with real food issues, 'fixing the issues' is a lot easier to say than do. Imagine telling a heroin addict that they had to keep using some heroin in order to stay alive, but not to use too much.... Food addiction really can be that way. There are times I wish my problem was alcohol or drugs. Cold turkey would be a lot easier.

Calorie counting is a tool that makes me mindful of what I eat. By logging everything I am more aware of what I'm eating and when I'm eating it. It is about trying to separate real hunger, my body's need for fuel, from the other emotions that have triggered my eating in the past. Calorie counting is part of fixing the issues, not a crutch.

Will I have to count calories the rest of my life? I hope not. However, once I reach my goal, I plan to slowly increase my calories until I find my maintenance level. Then I will count at that level for a while until I get a comfortable 'feel' for what that is like. I expect the entire process to take several years, so I am hopeful that I will have 'dealt' with the issues. However like an alcoholic, I will need to be aware of my issues and mindful of slipping into the old habits for the rest of my life.

Fixing the issues is definitely harder than counting your calories but its surely not IMPOSSIBLE. You have to realize that you learned those bad food issues. You didn't always have them. You weren't born with them. That means you can un-learn them. Food addiction is a myth. It's completely psychological.

Would you sell your house or car for a Mcdonald's meal or donuts? Heroine addicts have a physical addiction, their bodies can not function without the drug. Your body can (& wants to) function perfectly fine without excess food. But it's your learned behaviors & psychological urges toward food that make it feel impossible for you to eat normally.

If your emotional eating issues are what made you overweight, then THOSE should be your primary focus, not eating a certain number of calories per day. By controlling your calorie intake, you're only treating the symptom of those eating issues, and you will continue having to treat that symptom, by managing your calories externally and exercising willpower and self control every day for the rest of your life to ensure that you stay below that self-imposed limit. Whereas your emotional eating tendencies will continue to linger below the surface.

If your emotional eating issues went away today, and you were suddenly able to eat when you were hungry & stop when you were full, wouldn't you be able to get and remain at a healthy weight for the rest of your life without ever having to count a single calorie again?

if you have the magic wand that will make my emotional food issues go away, please pass it my way. There is no magic wand. I've had years of therapy, and I still eat emotionally if I'm not conscious of what I"m doing. When I'm counting calories I do not feel deprived or like I'm restricting myself. I do not have forbidden foods or eliminate food groups. I do not feel like it is all about will power. To be honest, counting calories gives me power. It gives me the power to make the conscious decision do I want to eat this or not? Is it worth it?

My food issues go back over 30 years, so they will not disappear quickly. I need to deal with the issues *while* I am losing weight. I need to learn new habits and I need to learn how to listen to my body again. For me, calorie counting is a tool that lets me do that.

How would you suggest I achieve my goals without counting calories?

ayumi_

ves e]
I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO
[/quote]
I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.

heybales

I have gained 12 lbs since I brought my baby home from the hospital. Yes, GAINED since having a baby.

I think my stomach has stretched due to my overeating...what used to satiate me no longer does.

For example- I used to be able to eat half a Chipotle burrito and feel satisfied. Now if I eat just half I don't feel "full" and I am hungry again a lot sooner than before.

So now I have to get used to feeling less full/actual hunger until my body is back to "normal" and everything regulates again.

Did you have or close to having any diabetic issues during the pregnancy?

If so or close, you could still be dealing with those effect, namely insulin over-reacts and you get low blood sugar. So you feel hungry, but you know you ate enough.

Try the burrito in a bowl with half the rice and beans and vege's as normal, but all the meat and sauce and sour cream. Less carbs that way. Interesting test.

DamePiglet

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

crystalflame

And yes, many will be calorie counting for a long time - they can't trust their bodies - never should anyway unless you are really knowledgeable about how it can fool you, and work around that.

Can you explain more about why they shouldn't trust their bodies, & how it can fool them?

Three examples. These are certainly not all the ways you can be out of tune with your body.

1: http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fast-weight-loss-changes-hunger-hormones

Let's say someone has tried a crash diet before and eaten very low calories for an extended period of time. They lose the desired weight, but in the process their hormones triggering hunger have gotten out of balance. If they listen to their body signals, as you suggest, they'll end up gaining weight again.

2. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?_r=0

People who are trying to lose weight often are trying to do so without giving up all the foods they love. Snack foods are designed to make you keep wanting to eat more. Chips are not filling or satiating, but they trigger responses in your body telling you you need more. If people want to keep enjoying chips under caloric restriction, calorie counting is a powerful tool to gauge a proper serving and when enough is enough. Just listening to your body won't do that.

3. I've had ups and downs with eating disorders for 10 years now. My body is completely screwed up about signals, and I'm not sure I'll ever get back to normal. I can go a day without ever feeling hungry. I can eat a normal sized meal and feel so painfully full it takes all my willpower to not vomit. And then there are the days where despite eating enough, I'm starving and just can't seem to get enough food. I plan on calorie counting for life - not because I'm on a diet, but because it's what keeps me healthy. I can address what causes my eating disorder separately, but the chemicals in my body that regulate hunger cues are not a psychological issue or something I can undo with therapy. Only a LOT of time treating my body right will do that.

Calorie counting works for so many people. People are saying "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change" because "diet" in our society has come to mean "severe calorie restriction and/or food group restriction so you lose weight quickly without learning portion control or tools to keep weight off permanently." Calorie counting is a tool to learn good habits, and most of us on here treat it as such. If you can just listen to your body, that's great, good for you. But a lot of us can't trust our bodies anymore, and this is what we have to do to get where we need to be.

scubasuenc

And yes, many will be calorie counting for a long time - they can't trust their bodies - never should anyway unless you are really knowledgeable about how it can fool you, and work around that.

Can you explain more about why they shouldn't trust their bodies, & how it can fool them?

Three examples. These are certainly not all the ways you can be out of tune with your body.

1: http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fast-weight-loss-changes-hunger-hormones

Let's say someone has tried a crash diet before and eaten very low calories for an extended period of time. They lose the desired weight, but in the process their hormones triggering hunger have gotten out of balance. If they listen to their body signals, as you suggest, they'll end up gaining weight again.

2. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?_r=0

People who are trying to lose weight often are trying to do so without giving up all the foods they love. Snack foods are designed to make you keep wanting to eat more. Chips are not filling or satiating, but they trigger responses in your body telling you you need more. If people want to keep enjoying chips under caloric restriction, calorie counting is a powerful tool to gauge a proper serving and when enough is enough. Just listening to your body won't do that.

3. I've had ups and downs with eating disorders for 10 years now. My body is completely screwed up about signals, and I'm not sure I'll ever get back to normal. I can go a day without ever feeling hungry. I can eat a normal sized meal and feel so painfully full it takes all my willpower to not vomit. And then there are the days where despite eating enough, I'm starving and just can't seem to get enough food. I plan on calorie counting for life - not because I'm on a diet, but because it's what keeps me healthy. I can address what causes my eating disorder separately, but the chemicals in my body that regulate hunger cues are not a psychological issue or something I can undo with therapy. Only a LOT of time treating my body right will do that.

Calorie counting works for so many people. People are saying "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change" because "diet" in our society has come to mean "severe calorie restriction and/or food group restriction so you lose weight quickly without learning portion control or tools to keep weight off permanently." Calorie counting is a tool to learn good habits, and most of us on here treat it as such. If you can just listen to your body, that's great, good for you. But a lot of us can't trust our bodies anymore, and this is what we have to do to get where we need to be.

Very well said.

fitandfortyish

ves e]
I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.
[/quote]

Of course it is.

You assume too much. I didn't say a person had to work out for three hours every day. A normal amount of activity (take the stairs, Park at the far end of the parking lot at the mall, don't watch tv for two hours every night--go do something instead-hell standing even burns calories) will burn off a "donut"--to use you example

errorist

If OP isn't fat, and sees no value in the idea of calorie counting as a tool to help people who are trying to lose fat, or to gain muscle, why is he / she here?