Is calorie-counting different from dieting?

LiftAllThePizzas

simply having lots of cookies around me doesn't force me to eat copious amounts of them.

Hooray for you. This is exactly the point. Not everyone has the same amount of hunger or is signaled to stop at the same point.

Otherwise nearly everyone who lived near a gas station or fast food joint would be obese & wouldn't stop eating because calorie-dense food is readily available.

That's only true if everyone is identical in this aspect. As I've stated there is no good reason for this to be true. What evidence do you have that all people are?

See, that's where you are wrong. Everyone is born with PHYSICAL hunger indicators. If there were some hereditary "I can't tell when I'm not hungry anymore" gene, then obesity would not be a new thing. The rate of obesity would have been much more consistent throughout history. You would see much more people in the 1800's who were overweight or obese.

Are you saying that some people feel hungry more than others and it takes more food to make them full, and the amount of food it takes to satisfy their fullness is actually more than their body needs so they become overweight? I don't think that's true. I think that in those cases, people are mistaking other sensations for hunger, or aiming to reach much higher level of fullness with each meal than necessary.

Some of the evidence I have that all people are born knowing how to eat when they're hungry & stop when they're full is simply historical. Calorie counting is an extremely new thing, and far before it existed, the majority of the population knew how to maintain their weights without dieting of any sort. How do you think they were able to do that? Even though they exist more readily today, fatty & sugary foods have always existed. People in the 1800's could go to a bakery and get treats if they wanted them. Why is it that now, suddenly, everyone is now "hungrier" than they used to be?

You keep talking about the majority and what normally happens in most people under the normal circumstances those people experienced throughout history. You keep ignoring all the things that don't fit your model, such as the people who were wealthy and had access to as much food as they wanted, some of whom became obese. And you're ignoring the fact that they didn't have the same sorts of foods we have today which are easier to overeat.

There are also people who have difficulty gaining weight even when they are underweight, and have to eat to the point where they feel sick in order to gain weight. Why do you keep ignoring this entire section of the population? (Don't answer that, we already know it's because they don't fit your model.)

Are you saying that some people feel hungry more than others and it takes more food to make them full, and the amount of food it takes to satisfy their fullness is actually more than their body needs so they become overweight? I don't think that's true. I think that in those cases, people are mistaking other sensations for hunger, or aiming to reach much higher level of fullness with each meal than necessary.

That's a nice hypothesis, but how do you explain the same thing happening in animals? Is it your experience that all animals of the same species, given access to unlimited food supplies, will all maintain the exact level of body weight? My experience with animals pretty clearly falsifies your hypothesis.

TavistockToad

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP just wants to make herself feel better by showing everyone how much more clever she is because she doesn't need to count calories... Like anyone cares....

Llamapants86

I, personally use calorie counting as a tool to try to get back to "normal" eating. It helps me realise when I have had what I require. I have also learned a lot about how things work in my body as far as feeling full and what triggers my binge eating. Getting rid of old habits and building new ones will take a lot of time. In the interim I use calorie counting.

Diet is how I eat. So everyone has a diet. I am currently working on changing my diet to healthier and more balanced version of what I used to eat.

ayumi_

And yes, many will be calorie counting for a long time - they can't trust their bodies - never should anyway unless you are really knowledgeable about how it can fool you, and work around that.

Can you explain more about why they shouldn't trust their bodies, & how it can fool them?

Three examples. These are certainly not all the ways you can be out of tune with your body.

1: http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fast-weight-loss-changes-hunger-hormones

Let's say someone has tried a crash diet before and eaten very low calories for an extended period of time. They lose the desired weight, but in the process their hormones triggering hunger have gotten out of balance. If they listen to their body signals, as you suggest, they'll end up gaining weight again.

2. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?_r=0

People who are trying to lose weight often are trying to do so without giving up all the foods they love. Snack foods are designed to make you keep wanting to eat more. Chips are not filling or satiating, but they trigger responses in your body telling you you need more. If people want to keep enjoying chips under caloric restriction, calorie counting is a powerful tool to gauge a proper serving and when enough is enough. Just listening to your body won't do that.

3. I've had ups and downs with eating disorders for 10 years now. My body is completely screwed up about signals, and I'm not sure I'll ever get back to normal. I can go a day without ever feeling hungry. I can eat a normal sized meal and feel so painfully full it takes all my willpower to not vomit. And then there are the days where despite eating enough, I'm starving and just can't seem to get enough food. I plan on calorie counting for life - not because I'm on a diet, but because it's what keeps me healthy. I can address what causes my eating disorder separately, but the chemicals in my body that regulate hunger cues are not a psychological issue or something I can undo with therapy. Only a LOT of time treating my body right will do that.

Calorie counting works for so many people. People are saying "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change" because "diet" in our society has come to mean "severe calorie restriction and/or food group restriction so you lose weight quickly without learning portion control or tools to keep weight off permanently." Calorie counting is a tool to learn good habits, and most of us on here treat it as such. If you can just listen to your body, that's great, good for you. But a lot of us can't trust our bodies anymore, and this is what we have to do to get where we need to be.

All of the reasons you've given for not being able to trust your body are precisely related to people not trusting their bodies in the first place. Of course your metabolism & hunger signals would be screwed after dieting and eating disorders. But they aren't screwed permanently. You can fix and restore those.

ayumi_

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP just wants to make herself feel better by showing everyone how much more clever she is because she doesn't need to count calories... Like anyone cares....

Yep, that's exactly why I'm here.

I hope you could sense the sarcasm.

ayumi_

ves e]
I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.

"Of course it is.

You assume too much. I didn't say a person had to work out for three hours every day. A normal amount of activity (take the stairs, Park at the far end of the parking lot at the mall, don't watch tv for two hours every night--go do something instead-hell standing even burns calories) will burn off a "donut"--to use you example
[/quote]
I was using the 3 hours of exercise as an exaggerated example to make my point clear."

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc. It's simply not enough. A person can consume upwards of 1000 calories a day if they're emotionally eating, or if they're snacking even though they aren't hungry. Taking the steps instead of the elevator is not going to make up for that. The problem is the eating.

ayumi_

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

In case you didn't notice, I'm ignoring you purposely because I can tell by your earlier posts that you're only trying to poke fun at me or discredit what I'm saying using petty tactics.

LiftAllThePizzas

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP also didn't say whether or not we should trust our body when it tells us that picture I posted is moving.

TavistockToad

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP just wants to make herself feel better by showing everyone how much more clever she is because she doesn't need to count calories... Like anyone cares....

Yep, that's exactly why I'm here.

I hope you could sense the sarcasm.

And still not answering the question...

crystalflame

All of the reasons you've given for not being able to trust your body are precisely related to people not trusting their bodies in the first place. Of course your metabolism & hunger signals would be screwed after dieting and eating disorders. But they aren't screwed permanently. You can fix and restore those.

Then what are you asking? If we had all had perfect diets of nutritious food and listened to our bodies without ever having emotional responses to food, we wouldn't be on here. But that's not what happened, so we're here, and we're trying to get back to "normal," which can be a very slow process. Studies estimate an obese person person who gets down to a normal weight will take FIVE YEARS to have normal hunger cues again, even if they don't crash diet or do anything dangerous. Why are you so against people using this tool to be healthy?

ayumi_

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP also didn't say whether or not we should trust our body when it tells us that picture I posted is moving.

Because quite frankly that was an incredibly stupid analogy & I felt no need to address it.

TavistockToad

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

In case you didn't notice, I'm ignoring you purposely because I can tell by your earlier posts that you're only trying to poke fun at me or discredit what I'm saying using petty tactics.

But you've given your opinion, and others have given theirs... Everyone is allowed their own opinion... What else do you think you're going to get out of this thread?

Achrya

Well you can calorie count in a surplus or at maintaince, but I don't know of any 'diets' that translate to those sooo...yes.

ayumi_

All of the reasons you've given for not being able to trust your body are precisely related to people not trusting their bodies in the first place. Of course your metabolism & hunger signals would be screwed after dieting and eating disorders. But they aren't screwed permanently. You can fix and restore those.

Then what are you asking? If we had all had perfect diets of nutritious food and listened to our bodies without ever having emotional responses to food, we wouldn't be on here. But that's not what happened, so we're here, and we're trying to get back to "normal," which can be a very slow process. Studies estimate an obese person person who gets down to a normal weight will take FIVE YEARS to have normal hunger cues again, even if they don't crash diet or do anything dangerous. Why are you so against people using this tool to be healthy?

But counting calories isn't how you get back to "normal". Do you see people who have normal relationships with food counting calories to maintain their "normalcy"? Absolutely not. Your goals are pure, but you're going about them the entirely wrong way.

I'm against it because it compounds the problem. I've seen so many people go on diets, counting calories or whatever have you, and gain it back eventually, feeling worse about themselves afterwards, many being my friends, EVEN if they were eating a "healthy" amount of calories. That has happened to many people on this site as well just from reading through the motivation forum. There are studies that show that over 95% of dieters, no matter what technique they use, gain back the weight they lost eventually.

Those people blame themselves for their failures when in reality they're just going about it the entirely wrong way, and dieting is only making their issues worse. Having to force yourself to eat a certain amount a day isn't freedom, and it certainly isn't addressing the issues behind why you overeat in the first place. The fact that so many people now believe that externally controlling your diet is the only way to not be fat, is a big reason why so many people are, fat.

LiftAllThePizzas

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP also didn't say whether or not we should trust our body when it tells us that picture I posted is moving.

Because quite frankly that was an incredibly stupid analogy & I felt no need to address it.

It's a logical application of your premise that our perception should tell us everything we need to know about the world around us and how to interact with it.

I agree that it is incredibly stupid.

Llamapants86

All of the reasons you've given for not being able to trust your body are precisely related to people not trusting their bodies in the first place. Of course your metabolism & hunger signals would be screwed after dieting and eating disorders. But they aren't screwed permanently. You can fix and restore those.

Then what are you asking? If we had all had perfect diets of nutritious food and listened to our bodies without ever having emotional responses to food, we wouldn't be on here. But that's not what happened, so we're here, and we're trying to get back to "normal," which can be a very slow process. Studies estimate an obese person person who gets down to a normal weight will take FIVE YEARS to have normal hunger cues again, even if they don't crash diet or do anything dangerous. Why are you so against people using this tool to be healthy?

But counting calories isn't how you get back to "normal". Do you see people who have normal relationships with food counting calories to maintain their "normalcy"? Absolutely not. Your goals are pure, but you're going about them the entirely wrong way.

I'm against it because it compounds the problem. I've seen so many people go on diets, counting calories or whatever have you, and gain it back eventually, feeling worse about themselves afterwards, many being my friends, EVEN if they were eating a "healthy" amount of calories. That has happened to many people on this site as well just from reading through the motivation forum. There are studies that show that over 95% of dieters, no matter what technique they use, gain back the weight they lost eventually.

Those people blame themselves for their failures when in reality they're just going about it the entirely wrong way, and dieting is only making their issues worse. Having to force yourself to eat a certain amount a day isn't freedom, and it certainly isn't addressing the issues behind why you overeat in the first place. The fact that so many people now believe that externally controlling your diet is the only way to not be fat, is a big reason why so many people are, fat.

So what do you suggest oh wise one??

runnerchick69

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Yep! I changed my entire life from top to bottom and counting calories is a part of that change. A diet is something you start and finish but changing how you live your life goes on forever.

ayumi_

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP also didn't say whether or not we should trust our body when it tells us that picture I posted is moving.

Because quite frankly that was an incredibly stupid analogy & I felt no need to address it.

It's a logical application of your premise that our perception should tell us everything we need to know about the world around us and how to interact with it.

I agree that it is incredibly stupid.

Being hungry isn't a "perception". It's a physical sensation, just like having to pee and having to sleep. Are you telling me you also need a sleep clock to tell you how long to sleep for, & a pee monitor to tell you when you have to go to the restroom?

Quasita

For me calorie counting is teaching me about portion size and the calories in certain foods (eg pasta - my idea of a portion had about double the calories in it than I thought). That's allowing me to make healthier choices. I don't think I'll count calories forever but it keeps me focussed whilst I'm getting to target. I do think there's certain foods that I'll weigh probably forever as its easy to eat a lot of extra calories without trying (complex carbs and high fat food in my case). Calorie counting is part of my lifestyle change but to eat the right things more often and to retrain my eating habits.

When you used to eat overly large portions, didn't you feel really full? Wouldn't that alone be enough to tell you to maybe cut down on your portions?

Unfortunately, at least in the US, large portions are the standard. Many people are already "trained" to eat larger portions and more than they need, which accounts for a lot of the obesity problem. Then there are people (myself included) that do not have normal satiation response.

Oftentimes, eating an actually appropriate portion does not fill the modern US person up. It can even leave them feeling hungry. We monitor calories and portions to re-order our way of looking at food and developing our abilities to judge food by sight. If you don't need this, that's great, but many of us do.

Dieting as a blanket term does essentially mean you are handling your food in a specific way, but most of the time, the term is used to indicate a specific behavioral response to food geared towards losing weight. Many structured "diets" are unhealthy and unbalanced, and that is why people on this site tend to warn people against it.

fitandfortyish

I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.

Of course it is.

You assume too much. I didn't say a person had to work out for three hours every day. A normal amount of activity (take the stairs, Park at the far end of the parking lot at the mall, don't watch tv for two hours every night--go do something instead-hell standing even burns calories) will burn off a "donut"--to use you example

I was using the 3 hours of exercise as an exaggerated example to make my point clear.

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

For sure...and your point is valid. There is no argument that we live in a society of excess.

I still argue that if we "did things" we wouldn't eat things--as much. If I go on a two hour hike in the mountains, or bike with my kids I'm not only burning calories doing something that is amazing, I'm not feasting on doritos (yum) on my couch.

Where your argument becomes valid is the choice I make after I hike/bike/walk/run. Do I have the doritos? Or choose an apple and a handful of nuts.

I suppose those who are familiar with the caloric count of their choices will opt for fruit and protein (ergo lifestyle change--see what I did there?). Less aware individuals may grab the doritos. Third option is have a handful of doritos AND an apple--no judging here.