Is calorie-counting different from dieting?

runnerchick69

....
My only goal is to put an end to this idea that counting calories & imposing restrictions is the only way. It's seriously troubling to me that so many people feel that way and I think the obesity problem will only get worse if people continue to believe that.

People find this site because they have chosen to count calories in order to change their bodies and their lives. MFP is not out there on the web promoting itself as 'the only way' to combat the obesity problem. Wouldn't your ebook be more suited to people who haven't yet settled on a method?

It's the OPs ebook? So this whole thread is just for advertising... Which is against forum guidelines?!

Hmmm....looks like you are right! Well it doesn't matter as the OP obviously clueless I guess we report the spam and move on doing what works for us. Have a great day, I'm off to log some calories :happy:

ayumi_

See, that's where you are wrong. Everyone is born with PHYSICAL hunger indicators. If there were some hereditary "I can't tell when I'm not hungry anymore" gene, then obesity would not be a new thing. The rate of obesity would have been much more consistent throughout history. You would see much more people in the 1800's who were overweight or obese.

Are you saying that some people feel hungry more than others and it takes more food to make them full, and the amount of food it takes to satisfy their fullness is actually more than their body needs so they become overweight? I don't think that's true. I think that in those cases, people are mistaking other sensations for hunger, or aiming to reach much higher level of fullness with each meal than necessary.

Some of the evidence I have that all people are born knowing how to eat when they're hungry & stop when they're full is simply historical. Calorie counting is an extremely new thing, and far before it existed, the majority of the population knew how to maintain their weights without dieting of any sort. How do you think they were able to do that? Even though they exist more readily today, fatty & sugary foods have always existed. People in the 1800's could go to a bakery and get treats if they wanted them. Why is it that now, suddenly, everyone is now "hungrier" than they used to be?

So what caused people to stop understanding their body? Something changed I assume? You sound like you blame some sort of conscious decision for obesity. If I knew the day I chose to stop listening to my body I would make that change.

You might want to think about the physical activity levels of people in the past when less mechanized equipment was available to do the work of human labor. People ate as much or more than they do now but their daily lives were much more active. They didn't have office jobs and didn't drive everywhere.

I can eat until I am full but without activity I won't balance the calorie equation and my body won't burn enough calories to stay in balance. A better working theory is that our bodies have not evolved as fast as our lifestyle and still believes that we need as many calories as we used to.

And you better believe that sometimes that balance goes out of whack due to changes in activity level, changes in hormones (and yes, hormones do control our eating habits and they do get out of whack) or other factors.

Most people don't know exactly when their relationship with food started to change for the worst, just like most women don't know they're in an abusive relationship until the negative effects are too obvious and harmful to ignore. A flip doesn't just go off one day and say "OKAY, START EATING EVERYTHING!" It's a gradual process of conditioning. You slowly learn to eat when you're not hungry because of other reasons. You slowly build the habit of using food to cope with other things. When you were young you were probably taught to clean your plate before you could get dessert. Of course a child wouldn't be aware of what was going on psychologically, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I highly disagree with your theory. People who are more active eat more BECAUSE they are more active, not regardless of whether or not they're active. Michael Phelps eats 10,000 calories a day to fuel his swimming. I'm 5'2, pretty sedentary and a female. I would never hope or desire to eat as much as he does because I know his body needs more energy than me, because of it's composition and because of his activity level. If I worked out that much, I'd need more food too. But I don't, so I don't.

fitandfortyish

I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.

Of course it is.

You assume too much. I didn't say a person had to work out for three hours every day. A normal amount of activity (take the stairs, Park at the far end of the parking lot at the mall, don't watch tv for two hours every night--go do something instead-hell standing even burns calories) will burn off a "donut"--to use you example

I was using the 3 hours of exercise as an exaggerated example to make my point clear.

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

For sure...and your point is valid. There is no argument that we live in a society of excess.

I still argue that if we "did things" we wouldn't eat things--as much. If I go on a two hour hike in the mountains, or bike with my kids I'm not only burning calories doing something that is amazing, I'm not feasting on doritos (yum) on my couch.

Where your argument becomes valid is the choice I make after I hike/bike/walk/run. Do I have the doritos? Or choose an apple and a handful of nuts.

I suppose those who are familiar with the caloric count of their choices will opt for fruit and protein (ergo lifestyle change--see what I did there?). Less aware individuals may grab the doritos. Third option is have a handful of doritos AND an apple--no judging here.

That's true. Being more active makes you more aware of how you feel physically, makes you feel better overall, and gives you endorphins, so someone who is more active would be much less likely to eat in a way that makes them feel like crap, or for emotional reasons.

But I disagree that knowing how many calories are in what you're eating is the only, or even the best, motivation to make better choices. If you pay attention, you can notice how you feel physically after eating an apple, versus after eating a bag of nacho cheese doritos. I've noticed that on days I eat fruit, my digestion is a lot better, my head feels clearer, I'm less tired. On days I eat mostly high-fat, nutrient-lacking foods, I feel foggier all day, less energetic, and even have slight stomach pain & digestive issues. I didn't have to count a single calorie to figure that out.

Absolutely! 100% agree....but I think that it's an evolution to get there.

Start with baby steps. Make the choice to change--whatever form it is. If you begin the process by counting calories you may eventually be faced with a situation where you have to make a choice. Example might be you only have 100 cals left in your daily intake. You can have the Apple and some almonds and maybe, just maybe you sit back and think "wow!...I'm glad I picked the apple--I feel better about myself and I'm feeling better about this process". Tomorrow the choice to have the Apple might be easier. By the end of the week, maybe the choice to have the Apple lead to choosing other healthy foods. Some day that person just might find out they feel like you say; alert, energetic, they laugh more....whatever.

But it has to start somewhere. And everyone has a different "somewhere". I'm with you...I don't tract my calories per second, anymore. I use MFP for other reasons (target protein intake and am trying to limit carbs to 10% of my daily) because now I know what's right for me. A year ago, I didn't though. And to be honest--I thought I ate healthy until I started tracking the stuff...whoa. A huge eye opener.....

LiftAllThePizzas

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

OP also didn't say whether or not we should trust our body when it tells us that picture I posted is moving.

Because quite frankly that was an incredibly stupid analogy & I felt no need to address it.

It's a logical application of your premise that our perception should tell us everything we need to know about the world around us and how to interact with it.

I agree that it is incredibly stupid.

Being hungry isn't a "perception". It's a physical sensation, just like having to pee and having to sleep. Are you telling me you also need a sleep clock to tell you how long to sleep for, & a pee monitor to tell you when you have to go to the restroom?

Call it what you want but it doesn't change the nature of the point.

The above is not a logical extension of my premise. It is a logical extension of the negative of your premise. I haven't said that nobody can trust anything their body ever tells them. I've said that not every hunger/full signal generated by every body is reliable. There are specific reasons (selection pressure would exist) for things like sleep control and bladder control in humans, yet historically there has been little if any for humans to have finely-tuned hunger signals. Instead, it would be more likely that we'd vary along a spectrum, which happens to be what is observed in reality. When food becomes abundant, those on one side of the spectrum gain weight by following their hunger.

Again, you've still failed to explain the phenomenon of overeating in animals.

And also, you're saying nobody ever uses an alarm clock? Or are you saying that everyone who uses an alarm clock is doing it wrong? (I could get behind that.) Perhaps you should go to an alarm clock forum and tell everyone they're doing it wrong.

ayumi_

....
My only goal is to put an end to this idea that counting calories & imposing restrictions is the only way. It's seriously troubling to me that so many people feel that way and I think the obesity problem will only get worse if people continue to believe that.

People find this site because they have chosen to count calories in order to change their bodies and their lives. MFP is not out there on the web promoting itself as 'the only way' to combat the obesity problem. Wouldn't your ebook be more suited to people who haven't yet settled on a method?

It's the OPs ebook? So this whole thread is just for advertising... Which is against forum guidelines?!

You have got to be kidding me right now.

This isn't my eBook and I had no part in writing it. It's simply the only free book on intuitive eating that I've found. Before reading that book, I read about 4 different ones by different authors, which I listed. But those cost MONEY, and I figured it wouldn't make sense to recommend something that costs money to people who are already skeptical, so i recommended a free one.

But it makes sense that you would be so quick to believe that I'm advertising "my" book (even though I CLEARLY stated that whoever reads it should ignore the *purchase blah blah* at the end of it), since you're so resistant to changing your mindsets & so skeptical towards anyone who tells you that you might be wrong.

Therealobi1

Hiyah Op, were you ever overweight before and how did you manage to lose your weight.

ayumi_

I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting here. Are you telling me then, that everyone who lives in an abundance of food will become fat if they don't count and track their calories? Everyone who enjoys food will become fat if they don't impose limitations that will force themselves to eat less?

If so, then why isn't everyone in every developed country fat? Why do many people remain thin while still in abundance of food, WITHOUT counting calories? Surely they aren't special snowflakes. We are all humans. We all have the same anatomy. Just because you've forgotten what it feels like to eat when you're hungry & stop when you're full (which every human knew how to do when they were babies) doesn't mean those signals don't exist. And just because you've replaced that natural mechanism with counting calories doesn't mean that original mechanism is invalid. It just means you've lost touch with how to use it.

You mentioned something about people 50 years ago--body cues for hunger etc which ties in nicely here as well.

Calories in/out, hunger cues, developed nations (or not) what separates those who are trim vs those who are carrying extra pounds is based entirely on much that person MOVES. Fifty years ago: no Internet, 13 channels on tv you walked or rode you bike to school which was 2 kms away, plus mom made dinners more often than not---European nations are countries where people walk, hike, bike here and there. At the end of the day, it's not how much people eat today in North America...it's how little we actually "move"

Those who move most, tend to weigh less....IMO

I disagree with this too, because I know many people who are sedentary and aren't fat. They just eat less to compensate. Think about it.

If you take a person who works out 3 hours every day, and you take a person who doesn't work out at all, the person who works out will get HUNGRIER. Their body will require more energy to fuel their exercise, so they will eat more. The person who doesn't work out will not get hungry as often because their body does not require that extra energy. So they will eat less.

This is, of course, only if both people are "normal eaters" & know how to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are no longer hungry, which is the skill that most overweight people are missing.

It takes 2 hours of walking to burn off one glazed donut. Exercise isn't the primary issue here.

Of course it is.

You assume too much. I didn't say a person had to work out for three hours every day. A normal amount of activity (take the stairs, Park at the far end of the parking lot at the mall, don't watch tv for two hours every night--go do something instead-hell standing even burns calories) will burn off a "donut"--to use you example

I was using the 3 hours of exercise as an exaggerated example to make my point clear.

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

For sure...and your point is valid. There is no argument that we live in a society of excess.

I still argue that if we "did things" we wouldn't eat things--as much. If I go on a two hour hike in the mountains, or bike with my kids I'm not only burning calories doing something that is amazing, I'm not feasting on doritos (yum) on my couch.

Where your argument becomes valid is the choice I make after I hike/bike/walk/run. Do I have the doritos? Or choose an apple and a handful of nuts.

I suppose those who are familiar with the caloric count of their choices will opt for fruit and protein (ergo lifestyle change--see what I did there?). Less aware individuals may grab the doritos. Third option is have a handful of doritos AND an apple--no judging here.

That's true. Being more active makes you more aware of how you feel physically, makes you feel better overall, and gives you endorphins, so someone who is more active would be much less likely to eat in a way that makes them feel like crap, or for emotional reasons.

But I disagree that knowing how many calories are in what you're eating is the only, or even the best, motivation to make better choices. If you pay attention, you can notice how you feel physically after eating an apple, versus after eating a bag of nacho cheese doritos. I've noticed that on days I eat fruit, my digestion is a lot better, my head feels clearer, I'm less tired. On days I eat mostly high-fat, nutrient-lacking foods, I feel foggier all day, less energetic, and even have slight stomach pain & digestive issues. I didn't have to count a single calorie to figure that out.

Absolutely! 100% agree....but I think that it's an evolution to get there.

Start with baby steps. Make the choice to change--whatever form it is. If you begin the process by counting calories you may eventually be faced with a situation where you have to make a choice. Example might be you only have 100 cals left in your daily intake. You can have the Apple and some almonds and maybe, just maybe you sit back and think "wow!...I'm glad I picked the apple--I feel better about myself and I'm feeling better about this process". Tomorrow the choice to have the Apple might be easier. By the end of the week, maybe the choice to have the Apple lead to choosing other healthy foods. Some day that person just might find out they feel like you say; alert, energetic, they laugh more....whatever.

But it has to start somewhere. And everyone has a different "somewhere". I'm with you...I don't tract my calories per second, anymore. I use MFP for other reasons (target protein intake and am trying to limit carbs to 10% of my daily) because now I know what's right for me. A year ago, I didn't though. And to be honest--I thought I ate healthy until I started tracking the stuff...whoa. A huge eye opener.....

I think you're right in part. The only problem with most people is that looking at it from the calorie perspective puts wayyy too much emphasis on the calorie content instead of the nutrition benefits and the physical benefits of what they're eating.

LiftAllThePizzas

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

I can easily eat close to my TDEE worth of krispy kreme donuts before my body tells me I'm full. It's not emotional eating or eating to distract myself or boredom or any other BS reason. It's because I'm hungry and I like the taste of them, and my body's 'full' signal is not properly attuned to my caloric needs in all circumstances.

in_the_stars

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread. You do bring up some good points.

But counting calories isn't how you get back to "normal". Do you see people who have normal relationships with food counting calories to maintain their "normalcy"? Absolutely not. Your goals are pure, but you're going about them the entirely wrong way.

I'm against it because it compounds the problem. I've seen so many people go on diets, counting calories or whatever have you, and gain it back eventually, feeling worse about themselves afterwards, many being my friends, EVEN if they were eating a "healthy" amount of calories. That has happened to many people on this site as well just from reading through the motivation forum. There are studies that show that over 95% of dieters, no matter what technique they use, gain back the weight they lost eventually.

Those people blame themselves for their failures when in reality they're just going about it the entirely wrong way, and dieting is only making their issues worse. Having to force yourself to eat a certain amount a day isn't freedom, and it certainly isn't addressing the issues behind why you overeat in the first place. The fact that so many people now believe that externally controlling your diet is the only way to not be fat, is a big reason why so many people are, fat.

TavistockToad

since you're so resistant to changing your mindsets & so skeptical towards anyone who tells you that you might be wrong.

I am getting the results I want doing what I do, how is that 'wrong' for me?

I was just curious what the point of this thread was when you seemingly asked a question but then told everyone who counted calories that they were wrong and you were right...

It took 5 pages for you to come out with some amazing ebook that was supposedly better than MFP...

LiftAllThePizzas

Sure people should probably get those problems that led to their obesity under control, but why demonize calorie counting?

If a cat can get fat, is his natural hunger force not working or does he have emotional issues?
Why are there underweight people?
Why do bodybuilders and normal weight people count calories?
Why are you on a calorie counting site?

Sorry, but asking questions that undermine the OP's premise will only get you ignored.

ayumi_

Hiyah Op, were you ever overweight before and how did you manage to lose your weight.

Yep, I was.

As a 10 year old I was 130 pounds and 5' tall. I ate a LOT, eating was my favorite thing to do. I wasn't in sports and didn't have many friends either, so I learned to love food way more than I should have. It wasn't until I turned 12 or 13 that I started to feel ashamed about my weight. That's when I started dieting, and my dieting continued until I was 18. I would yoyo between 102 and 140 pounds from restricting calories, then binging, then dieting again, then binging.

I finally got fed up after my last attempt around the age of 19. I used to use MFP to track my calories too, and just like everyone recommended, I ate 20% less than my TDEE, exercised 5 times a week, etc. But eventually I just got tired of the counting and tired of living that lifestyle. Having friends who had no trouble with this sort of thing eventually got me thinking. Why can they eat normally and not me? Am I cursed to be fat forever?

My weight has now stabilized to 115 pounds, and I owe that 100% to making the efforts to learn how to eat like a normal human being. I made the changes necessary to allow me to stop eating because of emotional reasons, stop eating because I'm bored, stop eating to distract myself from other issues, or just because it's there. I've learned to figure out when I feel hungry, and to eat what I want when that hunger comes on. I've eliminated my disproportional attraction to certain "trigger foods" because I've stopped making them so special and off limits, & learned to look at them as just food, which they are. I place no moral labels on food anymore. And even though it was at the beginning, what I choose to eat is no longer nothing but chips & chocolate. Now that I realize, from experience, what foods make me feel good and what foods (or quantities of those foods) make me feel like crap, my eating habits have become surprisingly balanced and I feel so normal and free.

The books I recommended are the ones that helped me the most, but the free one is one I just read recently. But it tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

LiftAllThePizzas

But counting calories isn't how you get back to "normal". Do you see people who have normal relationships with food counting calories to maintain their "normalcy"? Absolutely not. Your goals are pure, but you're going about them the entirely wrong way.

I'm against it because it compounds the problem. I've seen so many people go on diets, counting calories or whatever have you, and gain it back eventually, feeling worse about themselves afterwards, many being my friends, EVEN if they were eating a "healthy" amount of calories. That has happened to many people on this site as well just from reading through the motivation forum. There are studies that show that over 95% of dieters, no matter what technique they use, gain back the weight they lost eventually.

Those people blame themselves for their failures when in reality they're just going about it the entirely wrong way, and dieting is only making their issues worse. Having to force yourself to eat a certain amount a day isn't freedom, and it certainly isn't addressing the issues behind why you overeat in the first place. The fact that so many people now believe that externally controlling your diet is the only way to not be fat, is a big reason why so many people are, fat.

Do you know what freedom is? Being able to run and walk, being able to know that I'm not killing myself by being super-obese, not feeling like everyone is looking at me, being able to backpack for days, being able to play with my nieces and nephews. I could go on and on. Counting and restricting my calories so that I have a deficit has given me that. I DO NOT CARE if having to do that makes me "not normal" in that one little way. Seriously, not one little bit.

Agreed. THIS is what freedom looks like:

PinkNinjaLaura

Well most people settle on the method of calorie counting because they believe this is the only way. I'm sure if most people felt like they had other, easier options, they wouldn't choose this.

Not true. I've tried many methods of losing weight (including intuitive & mindful eating) and this by far has been the most successful for me, as well as the easiest.

Francl27

For me losing weight = dieting. But again, I've never cared about semantics.

SEAFOODMAN

well I always thought if you diet, you lose the weight, then go back to your bad habits.....lifestyle change is a change for life. you really have to keep going til you die lol.....working out/counting calories or somewhat. You can still have the good stuff, you just can't go nuts.

ayumi_

Sure people should probably get those problems that led to their obesity under control, but why demonize calorie counting?

If a cat can get fat, is his natural hunger force not working or does he have emotional issues?
Why are there underweight people?
Why do bodybuilders and normal weight people count calories?
Why are you on a calorie counting site?

Housecats are domesticated, which means that their owners use food to train them, bribe them, etc. etc. They, like people, learn that food can be a reward and not just a biological need. Animals in the wild are not overweight because they are not influenced in this way.

Some people are naturally thinner than others even though they eat according to hunger. What's considered a "healthy weight" is not necessarily accurate for everyone. BMI calculators are not an accurate depiction of how healthy a person is.

Body builders have goals to push their bodies to large, muscular proportions. Although it can still be healthy, it's definitely not "natural". So it would of course take unnatural methods to get there.

The only normal weight people who count calories are doing it to keep their weight low because they've forgotten how to do so any other way, OR they're trying to maintain a weight lower than where their bodies would naturally fall. But many, if not most, normal weight people AREN'T concerned with calories.

I used to be a MFP member and now I'm back to share my discoveries. I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand though. But I can see how you could be trying to use that to deviate from the topic & discredit what I'm saying.

ayumi_

Well most people settle on the method of calorie counting because they believe this is the only way. I'm sure if most people felt like they had other, easier options, they wouldn't choose this.

Not true. I've tried many methods of losing weight (including intuitive & mindful eating) and this by far has been the most successful for me, as well as the easiest.

You probably weren't going about it correctly. Most likely you still had a diet-like mindset towards it.

littleburgy

I love it when people come in here with an agenda and assume that what's right for them applies to everybody else.

It doesn't.

There's nothing wrong with tracking what you eat if your health warrants it. (Right now I'm not eating ENOUGH, I'm trying to STOP losing weight, some of us count calories for that, you know.)

Go with what works. If hunger signals are your thing, fine. If calories are your thing, fine. To each their own in that regard.

ayumi_

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

I can easily eat close to my TDEE worth of krispy kreme donuts before my body tells me I'm full. It's not emotional eating or eating to distract myself or boredom or any other BS reason. It's because I'm hungry and I like the taste of them, and my body's 'full' signal is not properly attuned to my caloric needs in all circumstances.

And you wouldn't feel nauseous, sick, or completely lacking in energy if you ate 1500+ calories worth of donuts? You'd feel perfectly fine & full of energy?