Is calorie-counting different from dieting?

evileen99

Sure people should probably get those problems that led to their obesity under control, but why demonize calorie counting?

If a cat can get fat, is his natural hunger force not working or does he have emotional issues?
Why are there underweight people?
Why do bodybuilders and normal weight people count calories?
Why are you on a calorie counting site?

Housecats are domesticated, which means that their owners use food to train them, bribe them, etc. etc. They, like people, learn that food can be a reward and not just a biological need. Animals in the wild are not overweight because they are not influenced in this way.

I'm guessing you've never had a cat if you think you can get them to do what you want with "training." And animals in the wild are not overweight because there isn't usually a surplus of food for them to eat every day. If given the opportunity, they will eat like crazy and put on weight. Or because they have to run from predators or run to catch their food.

Therealobi1

Hiyah Op, were you ever overweight before and how did you manage to lose your weight.

Yep, I was.

As a 10 year old I was 130 pounds and 5' tall. I ate a LOT, eating was my favorite thing to do. I wasn't in sports and didn't have many friends either, so I learned to love food way more than I should have. It wasn't until I turned 12 or 13 that I started to feel ashamed about my weight. That's when I started dieting, and my dieting continued until I was 18. I would yoyo between 102 and 140 pounds from restricting calories, then binging, then dieting again, then binging.

I finally got fed up after my last attempt around the age of 19. I used to use MFP to track my calories too, and just like everyone recommended, I ate 20% less than my TDEE, exercised 5 times a week, etc. But eventually I just got tired of the counting and tired of living that lifestyle. Having friends who had no trouble with this sort of thing eventually got me thinking. Why can they eat normally and not me? Am I cursed to be fat forever?

My weight has now stabilized to 115 pounds, and I owe that 100% to making the efforts to learn how to eat like a normal human being. I made the changes necessary to allow me to stop eating because of emotional reasons, stop eating because I'm bored, stop eating to distract myself from other issues, or just because it's there. I've learned to figure out when I feel hungry, and to eat what I want when that hunger comes on. I've eliminated my disproportional attraction to certain "trigger foods" because I've stopped making them so special and off limits, & learned to look at them as just food, which they are. I place no moral labels on food anymore. And even though it was at the beginning, what I choose to eat is no longer nothing but chips & chocolate. Now that I realize, from experience, what foods make me feel good and what foods (or quantities of those foods) make me feel like crap, my eating habits have become surprisingly balanced and I feel so normal and free.

The books I recommended are the ones that helped me the most, but the free one is one I just read recently. But it tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

everything you said is reasonable here. So how long did it take to re train your way of thinking?
Also I read alot of posts in these forums and there are many people here who count calories that now can control themselves and eat healthy. Is there anything wrong with that?

Otterluv

But counting calories isn't how you get back to "normal". Do you see people who have normal relationships with food counting calories to maintain their "normalcy"? Absolutely not. Your goals are pure, but you're going about them the entirely wrong way.

I'm against it because it compounds the problem. I've seen so many people go on diets, counting calories or whatever have you, and gain it back eventually, feeling worse about themselves afterwards, many being my friends, EVEN if they were eating a "healthy" amount of calories. That has happened to many people on this site as well just from reading through the motivation forum. There are studies that show that over 95% of dieters, no matter what technique they use, gain back the weight they lost eventually.

Those people blame themselves for their failures when in reality they're just going about it the entirely wrong way, and dieting is only making their issues worse. Having to force yourself to eat a certain amount a day isn't freedom, and it certainly isn't addressing the issues behind why you overeat in the first place. The fact that so many people now believe that externally controlling your diet is the only way to not be fat, is a big reason why so many people are, fat.

Do you know what freedom is? Being able to run and walk, being able to know that I'm not killing myself by being super-obese, not feeling like everyone is looking at me, being able to backpack for days, being able to play with my nieces and nephews. I could go on and on. Counting and restricting my calories so that I have a deficit has given me that. I DO NOT CARE if having to do that makes me "not normal" in that one little way. Seriously, not one little bit.

Agreed. THIS is what freedom looks like:

and this:



with maybe a smidge of this:

zyxst

All this for a book?

scubasuenc

OP. Glad mindful eating has worked for you. Not everyone has your success with it. I have taken some time to read the first few chapters of the book you recommended. It isn't anything I haven't read/heard before. And it did not change my life for the better.

Coming hear and preaching that calorie counting is wrong and doesn't work is like walking into a mosque and preaching the gospel of Jesus. You are fortunate that the consequences are less painful.

I'm off to eat because I'm hungry and then log the calories. Sorry if that bothers you, but it works for me.

ayumi_

Hiyah Op, were you ever overweight before and how did you manage to lose your weight.

Yep, I was.

As a 10 year old I was 130 pounds and 5' tall. I ate a LOT, eating was my favorite thing to do. I wasn't in sports and didn't have many friends either, so I learned to love food way more than I should have. It wasn't until I turned 12 or 13 that I started to feel ashamed about my weight. That's when I started dieting, and my dieting continued until I was 18. I would yoyo between 102 and 140 pounds from restricting calories, then binging, then dieting again, then binging.

I finally got fed up after my last attempt around the age of 19. I used to use MFP to track my calories too, and just like everyone recommended, I ate 20% less than my TDEE, exercised 5 times a week, etc. But eventually I just got tired of the counting and tired of living that lifestyle. Having friends who had no trouble with this sort of thing eventually got me thinking. Why can they eat normally and not me? Am I cursed to be fat forever?

My weight has now stabilized to 115 pounds, and I owe that 100% to making the efforts to learn how to eat like a normal human being. I made the changes necessary to allow me to stop eating because of emotional reasons, stop eating because I'm bored, stop eating to distract myself from other issues, or just because it's there. I've learned to figure out when I feel hungry, and to eat what I want when that hunger comes on. I've eliminated my disproportional attraction to certain "trigger foods" because I've stopped making them so special and off limits, & learned to look at them as just food, which they are. I place no moral labels on food anymore. And even though it was at the beginning, what I choose to eat is no longer nothing but chips & chocolate. Now that I realize, from experience, what foods make me feel good and what foods (or quantities of those foods) make me feel like crap, my eating habits have become surprisingly balanced and I feel so normal and free.

The books I recommended are the ones that helped me the most, but the free one is one I just read recently. But it tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

everything you said is reasonable here. So how long did it take to re train your way of thinking?
Also I read alot of posts in these forums and there are many people here who count calories that now can control themselves and eat healthy. Is there anything wrong with that?

It took about 5 months, from the point that I totally gave up dieting and surrendered to the process. It was very much a learning process and I had to learn new ways to cope with my feelings, new ways to think about food, etc etc. So it definitely took time before I could start seeing steady weight loss.

But once I had made significant progress with learning about my body and my mind, the weight loss was literally effortless. I was losing about 5 pounds a month effortlessly. At my highest, around last May, I was 140. I reached 115 by the end of November and have been 113 to 116 ever since. I eat whatever I want and I don't count ANYTHING. When I feel hungry, I eat until I stop feeling hungry. And learning to be this way with food wasn't a "weight loss method". Weight loss was only one of the many side effects, which also included increased confidence in myself, healthier ways to cope with my feelings and newly discovered hobbies to cope with boredom, and the desire to start living my life NOW instead of waiting till I reached a certain weight to start loving myself & treating myself with care.

It truly upsets me that so many people are in the boat I used to be in with zero intention of changing. Yes, it does bother me because I possess sympathy for others. For people to even explore the possibility is all I ask. Your weight isn't the only thing that changes when you learn to eat like a normal person. Your entire outlook on food changes, your outlook on life changes, everything changes. But I understand that it can be hard for people to let go of what they believe is the only way. I was that way too. It took becoming 100% fed up with dieting & counting calories for me to even think of changing. But I'm so glad I did.

PinkNinjaLaura

Well most people settle on the method of calorie counting because they believe this is the only way. I'm sure if most people felt like they had other, easier options, they wouldn't choose this.

Not true. I've tried many methods of losing weight (including intuitive & mindful eating) and this by far has been the most successful for me, as well as the easiest.

You probably weren't going about it correctly. Most likely you still had a diet-like mindset towards it.

Or not. Because you actually don't know me at all. If you've got something that works for you I'm super happy for you, but please do not presume that's what's best or what everybody else would want.

shor0814

Most people don't know exactly when their relationship with food started to change for the worst, just like most women don't know they're in an abusive relationship until the negative effects are too obvious and harmful to ignore. A flip doesn't just go off one day and say "OKAY, START EATING EVERYTHING!" It's a gradual process of conditioning. You slowly learn to eat when you're not hungry because of other reasons. You slowly build the habit of using food to cope with other things. When you were young you were probably taught to clean your plate before you could get dessert. Of course a child wouldn't be aware of what was going on psychologically, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I highly disagree with your theory. People who are more active eat more BECAUSE they are more active, not regardless of whether or not they're active. Michael Phelps eats 10,000 calories a day to fuel his swimming. I'm 5'2, pretty sedentary and a female. I would never hope or desire to eat as much as he does because I know his body needs more energy than me, because of it's composition and because of his activity level. If I worked out that much, I'd need more food too. But I don't, so I don't.

You miss the boat. An entire population of people (thus an obesity epidemic) changed, not just one or two outliers. There has always been obesity but it is accelerating. You can't tell me that an entire population of people just stopped learning to listen to their body without some external factor. I take responsibility for my weight problem and choose to deal with it in a way that I feel works for me, you choose your own path.

People like Phelps can eat lots of calories because they are active. When people did manual labor they needed more calories and therefore could eat those calories. He can eat more calories because he must eat that many calories to maintain his level of fitness, no different than the farmer who could eat more because he needed to eat more. Oh, btw, Michael Phelps does NOT eat 10,000 calories. He eats more than you or I and can do so because he burns every one of them eventually. The vast majority of people today are not active enough to eat as many calories as their ancestors but still continue to do so.

ayumi_

Most people don't know exactly when their relationship with food started to change for the worst, just like most women don't know they're in an abusive relationship until the negative effects are too obvious and harmful to ignore. A flip doesn't just go off one day and say "OKAY, START EATING EVERYTHING!" It's a gradual process of conditioning. You slowly learn to eat when you're not hungry because of other reasons. You slowly build the habit of using food to cope with other things. When you were young you were probably taught to clean your plate before you could get dessert. Of course a child wouldn't be aware of what was going on psychologically, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I highly disagree with your theory. People who are more active eat more BECAUSE they are more active, not regardless of whether or not they're active. Michael Phelps eats 10,000 calories a day to fuel his swimming. I'm 5'2, pretty sedentary and a female. I would never hope or desire to eat as much as he does because I know his body needs more energy than me, because of it's composition and because of his activity level. If I worked out that much, I'd need more food too. But I don't, so I don't.

You miss the boat. An entire population of people (thus an obesity epidemic) changed, not just one or two outliers. There has always been obesity but it is accelerating. You can't tell me that an entire population of people just stopped learning to listen to their body without some external factor. I take responsibility for my weight problem and choose to deal with it in a way that I feel works for me, you choose your own path.

People like Phelps can eat 10,000 calories because they are active. When people did manual labor they needed more calories and therefore could eat those calories. He can eat more calories because he must eat that many calories to maintain his level of fitness, no different than the farmer who could eat more because he needed to eat more. Oh, btw, Michael Phelps does NOT eat 10,000 calories. He eats more than you or I and can do so because he burns every one of them eventually. The vast majority of people today are not active enough to eat as many calories as their ancestors but still continue to do so.

That's exactly my point. What else has changed that didn't exist back then? Food advertisements that encourage people to eat even if they aren't hungry, because the food will make them happier, or will make them less stressed ("Upset? Eat a Snickers."), or will solve some other problem in their lives. Restaurants that serve portions WAY larger than most people need, encouraging them to ignore their fullness and eat far past a comfortable level.

And again, you proved my point again. If Michael Phelps tried to eat 2,000 calories or whatever the recommended amount was for a normal male, he'd be STARVING. His body would be crying out for more food because he NEEDS more food to power his workouts. Someone who sits around all day doing nothing, their body does NOT cry out for more food. They do not get physically hungry enough to eat 3,000+ more calories. They might get bored enough, tired enough, upset/depressed enough. But that's not physical hunger talking, physical hunger is not to blame here. Learned behaviors around food are. Eating when you aren't hungry is to blame.

Otterluv

Most people don't know exactly when their relationship with food started to change for the worst, just like most women don't know they're in an abusive relationship until the negative effects are too obvious and harmful to ignore. A flip doesn't just go off one day and say "OKAY, START EATING EVERYTHING!" It's a gradual process of conditioning. You slowly learn to eat when you're not hungry because of other reasons. You slowly build the habit of using food to cope with other things. When you were young you were probably taught to clean your plate before you could get dessert. Of course a child wouldn't be aware of what was going on psychologically, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I highly disagree with your theory. People who are more active eat more BECAUSE they are more active, not regardless of whether or not they're active. Michael Phelps eats 10,000 calories a day to fuel his swimming. I'm 5'2, pretty sedentary and a female. I would never hope or desire to eat as much as he does because I know his body needs more energy than me, because of it's composition and because of his activity level. If I worked out that much, I'd need more food too. But I don't, so I don't.

You miss the boat. An entire population of people (thus an obesity epidemic) changed, not just one or two outliers. There has always been obesity but it is accelerating. You can't tell me that an entire population of people just stopped learning to listen to their body without some external factor. I take responsibility for my weight problem and choose to deal with it in a way that I feel works for me, you choose your own path.

People like Phelps can eat 10,000 calories because they are active. When people did manual labor they needed more calories and therefore could eat those calories. He can eat more calories because he must eat that many calories to maintain his level of fitness, no different than the farmer who could eat more because he needed to eat more. Oh, btw, Michael Phelps does NOT eat 10,000 calories. He eats more than you or I and can do so because he burns every one of them eventually. The vast majority of people today are not active enough to eat as many calories as their ancestors but still continue to do so.

That's exactly my point. What else has changed that didn't exist back then? Food advertisements that encourage people to eat even if they aren't hungry, because the food will make them happier, or will make them less stressed ("Upset? Eat a Snickers."), or will solve some other problem in their lives. Restaurants that serve portions WAY larger than most people need, encouraging them to ignore their fullness and eat far past a comfortable level.

And again, you proved my point again. If Michael Phelps tried to eat 2,000 calories or whatever the recommended amount was for a normal male, he'd be STARVING. His body would be crying out for more food because he NEEDS more food to power his workouts. Someone who sits around all day doing nothing, their body does NOT cry out for more food. They do not get physically hungry enough to eat 3,000+ more calories. They might get bored enough, tired enough, upset/depressed enough. But that's not physical hunger talking, physical hunger is not to blame here. Learned behaviors around food are. Eating when you aren't hungry is to blame.

THIS is the world we live in. Not some fantasy of 50 years ago. In order to successful live well in this reality, calorie counting helps.

BTW - I went from sedentary to running fairly long distances and weightlifting. I know the difference between bored eating and feeling hungry. Running long distances makes you hungry, a burning wanting to eat everything in sight hunger. The kind that would encourage you to exceed your daily calorie needs. The whole gaining weight while training for a marathon thing is real, and that's why. It's all about the energy, and when we are doing activities that use a lot of energy our bodies want a lot of it, enough to store for later, because who knows when we'll run across it again.

Even for athletes, hunger cues are not always reliable.

fitandfortyish

Most people don't know exactly when their relationship with food started to change for the worst, just like most women don't know they're in an abusive relationship until the negative effects are too obvious and harmful to ignore. A flip doesn't just go off one day and say "OKAY, START EATING EVERYTHING!" It's a gradual process of conditioning. You slowly learn to eat when you're not hungry because of other reasons. You slowly build the habit of using food to cope with other things. When you were young you were probably taught to clean your plate before you could get dessert. Of course a child wouldn't be aware of what was going on psychologically, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I highly disagree with your theory. People who are more active eat more BECAUSE they are more active, not regardless of whether or not they're active. Michael Phelps eats 10,000 calories a day to fuel his swimming. I'm 5'2, pretty sedentary and a female. I would never hope or desire to eat as much as he does because I know his body needs more energy than me, because of it's composition and because of his activity level. If I worked out that much, I'd need more food too. But I don't, so I don't.

You miss the boat. An entire population of people (thus an obesity epidemic) changed, not just one or two outliers. There has always been obesity but it is accelerating. You can't tell me that an entire population of people just stopped learning to listen to their body without some external factor. I take responsibility for my weight problem and choose to deal with it in a way that I feel works for me, you choose your own path.

People like Phelps can eat 10,000 calories because they are active. When people did manual labor they needed more calories and therefore could eat those calories. He can eat more calories because he must eat that many calories to maintain his level of fitness, no different than the farmer who could eat more because he needed to eat more. Oh, btw, Michael Phelps does NOT eat 10,000 calories. He eats more than you or I and can do so because he burns every one of them eventually. The vast majority of people today are not active enough to eat as many calories as their ancestors but still continue to do so.

That's exactly my point. What else has changed that didn't exist back then? Food advertisements that encourage people to eat even if they aren't hungry, because the food will make them happier, or will make them less stressed ("Upset? Eat a Snickers."), or will solve some other problem in their lives. Restaurants that serve portions WAY larger than most people need, encouraging them to ignore their fullness and eat far past a comfortable level.

And again, you proved my point again. If Michael Phelps tried to eat 2,000 calories or whatever the recommended amount was for a normal male, he'd be STARVING. His body would be crying out for more food because he NEEDS more food to power his workouts. Someone who sits around all day doing nothing, their body does NOT cry out for more food. They do not get physically hungry enough to eat 3,000+ more calories. They might get bored enough, tired enough, upset/depressed enough. But that's not physical hunger talking, physical hunger is not to blame here. Learned behaviors around food are. Eating when you aren't hungry is to blame.

Oh wow...did you ever open a can of worms. I stepped away from the tablet for and hour (to work out incidents...) and the debate rages on.

To your point(s) yes. It gets to be very important to watch what goes in you mouth. Not fair to compare we mortals to the Phelps or the world . They condition--go beyond mere exercise--so need to fuel their bodies.

I consistently row 10,000m in under 45 mins in a fasted state--no less than 12 hours without food prior to....I don't require the fuel because I'm not Phelps-ian lean. Typically I won't eat for an hour after working out either. Which means what ? Means that most of us won't need to refuel that much after a work out....might not even be that hungry.

Bottom line, we don't start our marathons by stepping onto the course the morning of...we work up to it so we don't flail about for 1000m then call it quits resigning ourselves to the failure we think we are.

Know your calorie threshold. And DEFINITELY make the choices that help, not hinder your progress to the goal. I wholeheartedly believe in what you are saying in general--the theory is sound. I just think you need to back the start position up a bit.

Sabine_Stroehm

THIS is the world we live in. Not some fantasy of 50 years ago. In order to successful live well in this reality, calorie counting helps.

BTW - I went from sedentary to running fairly long distances and weightlifting. I know the difference between bored eating and feeling hungry. Running long distances makes you hungry, a burning wanting to eat everything in sight hunger. The kind that would encourage you to exceed your daily calorie needs. The whole gaining weight while training for a marathon thing is real, and that's why. It's all about the energy, and when we are doing activities that use a lot of energy our bodies want a lot of it, enough to store for later, because who knows when we'll run across it again.

Even for athletes, hunger cues are not always reliable.

Calorie counting helps YOU. It's NOT what works best for all. It's not what works best for me, in fact. At this time. It's not the right answer for every person, at every time in their lives. This is why I said earlier (as many others have): find what works for you and make a real plan for transitioning that from weight loss diet to to lifestyle diet.

LiftAllThePizzas

Burning off an extra donut a day by being moderately more active does not balance out the dozens of donuts and other things consumed when people are emotionally eating, or eating just because it's there, or eating to distract themselves, or eating out of boredom, etc etc.

I can easily eat close to my TDEE worth of krispy kreme donuts before my body tells me I'm full. It's not emotional eating or eating to distract myself or boredom or any other BS reason. It's because I'm hungry and I like the taste of them, and my body's 'full' signal is not properly attuned to my caloric needs in all circumstances.

And you wouldn't feel nauseous, sick, or completely lacking in energy if you ate 1500+ calories worth of donuts? You'd feel perfectly fine & full of energy?

No I wouldn't feel nauseous and sick or lack energy. If I did I wouldn't have ever done it after the first time.

Housecats are domesticated, which means that their owners use food to train them, bribe them, etc. etc. They, like people, learn that food can be a reward and not just a biological need. Animals in the wild are not overweight because they are not influenced in this way.

Animals in the wild are limited in population and size by the amount of food available. There aren't more of them in the wild because of the ones that starved off. If there were enough food for one to get fat, there'd be enough for another healthy individual to outcompete them as soon as they got too big to keep up with the process of gathering/finding/eating food. The biggest competition is from others of the same species and those who eat the same food sources. If there were more food, the next season's crop of youngsters would have a higher survival rate and the population would quickly increase to meet the available food source.

I've seen fish in aquariums that will overeat when given an unlimited food supply too, and some reptiles and snakes will do the same. Are you going to suggest that fish and reptiles are domesticated and trained to eat food for psychological reasons?

Quasita

This thread is irritating...
1. Obesity is NOT a new thing, but rather newly epidemic. There is evidence of overweight animals and humans alike stemming back for centuries.
2. Calorie counting is NOT particular to weightloss. It IS considered a part of a healthy maintenance diet, particularly for people with special circumstances.
3. Intuitive eating does NOT work for everyone, and shaming people is a terrible thing to do.

If you don't like MFP's tactics, then stop using it. It's... that... simple.

LiftAllThePizzas

I finally got fed up after my last attempt around the age of 19. I used to use MFP to track my calories too, and just like everyone recommended, I ate 20% less than my TDEE, exercised 5 times a week, etc. But eventually I just got tired of the counting and tired of living that lifestyle. Having friends who had no trouble with this sort of thing eventually got me thinking. Why can they eat normally and not me? Am I cursed to be fat forever?

You weren't going about calorie counting correctly. Most likely you still had a diet-like mindset towards it.

RhineDHP

This thread is irritating...
1. Obesity is NOT a new thing, but rather newly epidemic. There is evidence of overweight animals and humans alike stemming back for centuries.
2. Calorie counting is NOT particular to weightloss. It IS considered a part of a healthy maintenance diet, particularly for people with special circumstances.
3. Intuitive eating does NOT work for everyone, and shaming people is a terrible thing to do.

If you don't like MFP's tactics, then stop using it. It's... that... simple.

/end thread

Sabine_Stroehm

This thread is irritating...
1. Obesity is NOT a new thing, but rather newly epidemic. There is evidence of overweight animals and humans alike stemming back for centuries.
2. Calorie counting is NOT particular to weightloss. It IS considered a part of a healthy maintenance diet, particularly for people with special circumstances.
3. Intuitive eating does NOT work for everyone, and shaming people is a terrible thing to do.

If you don't like MFP's tactics, then stop using it. It's... that... simple.

Alas, this happens with everything. For whatever reason, each person's posted approach to eating, when shared on MFP, generally opens them up to mocking or shaming by *someone*. I have no idea why this is, but it always happens.

fitandfortyish

This thread is irritating...
1. Obesity is NOT a new thing, but rather newly epidemic. There is evidence of overweight animals and humans alike stemming back for centuries.
2. Calorie counting is NOT particular to weightloss. It IS considered a part of a healthy maintenance diet, particularly for people with special circumstances.
3. Intuitive eating does NOT work for everyone, and shaming people is a terrible thing to do.

If you don't like MFP's tactics, then stop using it. It's... that... simple.

Alas, this happens with everything. For whatever reason, each person's posted approach to eating, when shared on MFP, generally opens them up to mocking or shaming by *someone*. I have no idea why this is, but it always happens.

^^^^^^ This

DamePiglet

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

Why are you lurking around forums on a food tracking website asking people questions?
You're not counting calories, so you're here for other purposes.
People give you answers that you don't seem to be satisfied with.
So, cut to the chase... What do you want?

Since you skipped over my question before, I'm bumping it in case you didn't see it.

In case you didn't notice, I'm ignoring you purposely because I can tell by your earlier posts that you're only trying to poke fun at me or discredit what I'm saying using petty tactics.

I did notice you were ignoring me.

There is nothing petty about pointing out your behavior.

If it only takes "petty tactics" to discredit what you say, then what you say is rubbish, not fact.

joan23_us

If so how?

I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks and I constantly see people telling others, "don't diet! make it a lifestyle change!" But you're all counting your calories? Not to be judgmental but I don't see how it's different from a diet. Is this just a stepping stone to a healthier lifestyle? Or do you plan to count calories forever?

if you think of it as a diet there is a negative connotation that it is ONLY TEMPORARY... most people that make lifestyle changes including the way they approach their eating, portion sizes and exercises understands that its not a short term solution, its a journey towards changing your old bad habits that leads you on this website in the first place... it may seem daunting to think that you are going to count macros forever but it is the best solution, as others said it is an eye opener, you will be surprise on things you will discover about yourself, how much you eat, how it affects your mood, etc. imho it is more than just a diet, you dont have to necessary do it for life but for now that is what needs to be done to kickstart your journey... goodluck