Whole Foods: the Temple of Pseudoscience.
Replies
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I don't think I "make fun of people who talk about big pharma." There's a lot of unsavory stuff about pharmaceutical companies, from burying data to buying off physicians. I don't think I've ever made fun of people who talk about big pharma, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.
Also, not sure what "vitamin/homeopathy" section means either. Vitamins are not homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic - the literal idea is that the substance being sold contains nothing of note besides literal magic. And homeopathy is just one aspect of the pseudoscience and anti-science WF largely builds its brand on.
Ok, forget big pharma and just leave big food in.
Whole Foods does not build a large part of its brand on anti-science. They have lots of vitamins and supplements and some homeopathy. Again, most of the store is food. Not antiscience and charms. I'm not interested in debating the details of homeopathy because I'm loathe to give my money to any product that hasn't been proven to work (whether Airborne or Rescue Remedy), but I'm not agreeing with homeopathy = literal magic. Whether or not you believe it works isn't the same as "I'm selling you magic."0 -
I don't think I "make fun of people who talk about big pharma." There's a lot of unsavory stuff about pharmaceutical companies, from burying data to buying off physicians. I don't think I've ever made fun of people who talk about big pharma, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.
Also, not sure what "vitamin/homeopathy" section means either. Vitamins are not homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic - the literal idea is that the substance being sold contains nothing of note besides literal magic. And homeopathy is just one aspect of the pseudoscience and anti-science WF largely builds its brand on.
Ok, forget big pharma and just leave big food in.
Whole Foods does not build a large part of its brand on anti-science. They have lots of vitamins and supplements and some homeopathy. Again, most of the store is food. Not antiscience and charms. I'm not interested in debating the details of homeopathy because I'm loathe to give my money to any product that hasn't been proven to work (whether Airborne or Rescue Remedy), but I'm not agreeing with homeopathy = literal magic. Whether or not you believe it works isn't the same as "I'm selling you magic."
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.0 -
I don't think I "make fun of people who talk about big pharma." There's a lot of unsavory stuff about pharmaceutical companies, from burying data to buying off physicians. I don't think I've ever made fun of people who talk about big pharma, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.
Also, not sure what "vitamin/homeopathy" section means either. Vitamins are not homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic - the literal idea is that the substance being sold contains nothing of note besides literal magic. And homeopathy is just one aspect of the pseudoscience and anti-science WF largely builds its brand on.
Ok, forget big pharma and just leave big food in.
Whole Foods does not build a large part of its brand on anti-science. They have lots of vitamins and supplements and some homeopathy. Again, most of the store is food. Not antiscience and charms. I'm not interested in debating the details of homeopathy because I'm loathe to give my money to any product that hasn't been proven to work (whether Airborne or Rescue Remedy), but I'm not agreeing with homeopathy = literal magic. Whether or not you believe it works isn't the same as "I'm selling you magic."
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
Isn't that exactly what you've done with this thread since homeopathy is the only issue you have with WF and CVS?0 -
I don't think I "make fun of people who talk about big pharma." There's a lot of unsavory stuff about pharmaceutical companies, from burying data to buying off physicians. I don't think I've ever made fun of people who talk about big pharma, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.
Also, not sure what "vitamin/homeopathy" section means either. Vitamins are not homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic - the literal idea is that the substance being sold contains nothing of note besides literal magic. And homeopathy is just one aspect of the pseudoscience and anti-science WF largely builds its brand on.
Ok, forget big pharma and just leave big food in.
Whole Foods does not build a large part of its brand on anti-science. They have lots of vitamins and supplements and some homeopathy. Again, most of the store is food. Not antiscience and charms. I'm not interested in debating the details of homeopathy because I'm loathe to give my money to any product that hasn't been proven to work (whether Airborne or Rescue Remedy), but I'm not agreeing with homeopathy = literal magic. Whether or not you believe it works isn't the same as "I'm selling you magic."
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
Isn't that exactly what you've done with this thread since homeopathy is the only issue you have with WF and CVS?
No because homeopathy isn't the only issue. It's the one I chose to use as an example with you because it was something that really can't be argued.0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there0
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I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
I'm ok with my understanding of it. And while I don't trust it, there's a lot out there that I don't trust and isn't scientifically proven.
I actually find it a lot more misleading to imply that certain supplements can heal maladies than to suggest that certain extracts and essences can. Or even things like Shakeology, that have tiny amounts of the "superfoods." But the same liberties that allow people to worship pretty much anything and buy things like cigarettes extend to Whole Foods. Which I know you're not arguing, but what is the argument? Until drug stores eliminate all the products that aren't scientifically proven, what's the difference?0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.0 -
The main thing I liked about the article was that it points out the hypocrisy of looking down on pseudoscience in some formats (like creationism) while ignoring it in other forms. We've all got our blind spots.
I already forget the article, but my issue with comparing WF to creationism is that one is a business, filled with competing products to sell you stuff and make a profit. One is a belief system. I would argue that pretty much any religion is not scientifically provable in all tenants, but we have churches, temples, and places to buy religious items every-where. We send our kids to the schools. We have tax exemptions for them. Why are we worried about WF over GNC? Let the buyer beware.
I don't think it's quite so cut and dried.
For one thing, creationism (and religion in general) can be big business. For another I consider homeopathy to be the same as religion. It's a belief system.
I am a religious person, fwiw, but I do understand that my beliefs are beliefs are not science, which is something that I don't think I share with most practitioners of homeopathy.
But I don't disagree with you. There are lots of businesses that sell pseudoscience. The burden is on the buyer to understand what he/she is purchasing.
I kinda took that as the purpose of the article-- to make people aware of some of the products WF stocks.0 -
I don't think I "make fun of people who talk about big pharma." There's a lot of unsavory stuff about pharmaceutical companies, from burying data to buying off physicians. I don't think I've ever made fun of people who talk about big pharma, so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.
Also, not sure what "vitamin/homeopathy" section means either. Vitamins are not homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic - the literal idea is that the substance being sold contains nothing of note besides literal magic. And homeopathy is just one aspect of the pseudoscience and anti-science WF largely builds its brand on.
Ok, forget big pharma and just leave big food in.
Whole Foods does not build a large part of its brand on anti-science. They have lots of vitamins and supplements and some homeopathy. Again, most of the store is food. Not antiscience and charms. I'm not interested in debating the details of homeopathy because I'm loathe to give my money to any product that hasn't been proven to work (whether Airborne or Rescue Remedy), but I'm not agreeing with homeopathy = literal magic. Whether or not you believe it works isn't the same as "I'm selling you magic."
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
Isn't that exactly what you've done with this thread since homeopathy is the only issue you have with WF and CVS?
No because homeopathy isn't the only issue. It's the one I chose to use as an example with you because it was something that really can't be argued.
Well that's a bit of a cowardly tactic wouldn't you say?
OK so far in this thread you've said that homeopathy is pseudoscience, but that the homeopathy section does NOT keep you from going to Whole Foods, but DOES keep you from going to CVS because of a pharmacy's "inherent obligation" to the customer - nevermind that both are simply private businesses that can sell whatever they want.
So then if it isn't all about the homeopathy, what ELSE is it about Whole Foods that puts your panties in a twist?0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
What's the difference between that and ten salespeople mobbing me when I walk into a Vitamin World or GNC? Or the claims that beauty products make, for that matter?0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
no point cleansing with high fructose corn syrup.0 -
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
I'm ok with my understanding of it. And while I don't trust it, there's a lot out there that I don't trust and isn't scientifically proven.
I actually find it a lot more misleading to imply that certain supplements can heal maladies than to suggest that certain extracts and essences can. Or even things like Shakeology, that have tiny amounts of the "superfoods." But the same liberties that allow people to worship pretty much anything and buy things like cigarettes extend to Whole Foods. Which I know you're not arguing, but what is the argument? Until drug stores eliminate all the products that aren't scientifically proven, what's the difference?
Homeopathy isn't about essences and extracts.
Anyway, you can't argue that there's something significantly different about the market positioning and product and content of Whole Foods and a Shop Rite that has a few homeopathic preparations in its drug section.
However you want to characterize that difference is up to you I guess.
The article summarizes how I see and feel about that difference.0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
Do you think there is point at which you would stop shopping at WH?0 -
I'm not sure you quite understand homeopathy, but I don't want to turn this into a homeopathy debate.
I'm ok with my understanding of it. And while I don't trust it, there's a lot out there that I don't trust and isn't scientifically proven.
I actually find it a lot more misleading to imply that certain supplements can heal maladies than to suggest that certain extracts and essences can. Or even things like Shakeology, that have tiny amounts of the "superfoods." But the same liberties that allow people to worship pretty much anything and buy things like cigarettes extend to Whole Foods. Which I know you're not arguing, but what is the argument? Until drug stores eliminate all the products that aren't scientifically proven, what's the difference?
Homeopathy isn't about essences and extracts.
Anyway, you can't argue that there's something significantly different about the market positioning and product and content of Whole Foods and a Shop Rite that has a few homeopathic preparations in its drug section.
However you want to characterize that difference is up to you I guess.
The article summarizes how I see and feel about that difference.
do you feel that way about all health food stores? GNC? Vitamin Shoppe? etc etc?0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
What's the difference between that and ten salespeople mobbing me when I walk into a Vitamin World or GNC? Or the claims that beauty products make, for that matter?
Not much. I dislike those stores quite a bit as well. I don't shop at either one either.
It is a good comparison though actually. What makes me uncomfortable about WF is very similar to what makes me uncomfortable about GNC.0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
What's the difference between that and ten salespeople mobbing me when I walk into a Vitamin World or GNC? Or the claims that beauty products make, for that matter?
Not much. I dislike those stores quite a bit as well. I don't shop at either one either.
It is a good comparison though actually. What makes me uncomfortable about WF is very similar to what makes me uncomfortable about GNC.
So basically this boils down to
"I don't believe in magical health claims"
Not "I don't like Whole Foods"
We already knew this about you. Go back to McDonalds.
(edited for capitalization)0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
Do you think there is point at which you would stop shopping at WH?
You mean WF? I don't shop there, but I would have no problem doing so. I just don't.
I'm not boycotting the place or asking anyone else to. I'm sharing an article that I think makes some quality insights about it.0 -
For one thing, creationism (and religion in general) can be big business. For another I consider homeopathy to be the same as religion. It's a belief system.
I am a religious person, fwiw, but I do understand that my beliefs are beliefs are not science, which is something that I don't think I share with most practitioners of homeopathy.
But I don't disagree with you. There are lots of business that sell pseudoscience. The burden is on the buyer to understand what he/she is purchasing.
I agree that religion can be big business, which is why it's a greater concern to me, because people get upset when that gets suggested, and that's how people get fleeced.
You believe that your beliefs are beliefs, but many practitioners of religion wouldn't honestly see it as any different. Religious groups make very directive, influential statements that actually go so far as to affect our politics. We say we know they are different, but really, a lot of the time, we don't. (I believe you do. But children are even taught that their beliefs are the only possibilities and don't even need to be proven by science to be valid. I'm more concerned about that than Whole Foods offering some overpriced flower tincture for my stuffy nose.)0 -
For one thing, creationism (and religion in general) can be big business. For another I consider homeopathy to be the same as religion. It's a belief system.
I am a religious person, fwiw, but I do understand that my beliefs are beliefs are not science, which is something that I don't think I share with most practitioners of homeopathy.
But I don't disagree with you. There are lots of business that sell pseudoscience. The burden is on the buyer to understand what he/she is purchasing.
I agree that religion can be big business, which is why it's a greater concern to me, because people get upset when that gets suggested, and that's how people get fleeced.
You believe that your beliefs are beliefs, but many practitioners of religion wouldn't honestly see it as any different. Religious groups make very directive, influential statements that actually go so far as to affect our politics. We say we know they are different, but really, a lot of the time, we don't. (I believe you do. But children are even taught that their beliefs are the only possibilities and don't even need to be proven by science to be valid. I'm more concerned about that than Whole Foods offering some overpriced flower tincture for my stuffy nose.)
I don't disagree with that either.
Look at us, just agreeing right and left. :drinker:
I'm also a liberal though, so most of the religious people don't want much to do with me. :laugh:
eta: the anti-GMO campaign also has political ramifications though.0 -
Maybe it's just my area, but everywhere has these things nowadays. I'm trying to think of a single grocery store or pharmacy that doesn't carry homeopathic stuff, and I can't think of any. I did see the signs about separating your produce and coffee to avoid tainting your organic stuff, which was a pretty good laugh. If you're buying both, what does it matter if they touch? Both are ending up in the same place.
Anyway, I rarely shop there because there are better options around here, but our Whole Foods is the only place I have ever been able to find blood oranges, and I LOVE me some blood oranges!
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Homeopathy isn't about essences and extracts.
Anyway, you can't argue that there's something significantly different about the market positioning and product and content of Whole Foods and a Shop Rite that has a few homeopathic preparations in its drug section.
However you want to characterize that difference is up to you I guess.
The article summarizes how I see and feel about that difference.
Homeopathy isn't about chants and incantations, either, like you are implying.
No, I actually think that the products that are marketed in "normal" stores are more harmful and threatening than "homeopathy" in a Whole Foods, because they have more assumed credibility. Very few people are going to wander into Whole Foods accidentally and get suckered into the big bad world of homeopathy. People are a lot more likely to give a lot more of their money to Airborne.0 -
So basically this boils down to
"I don't believe in magical health claims"
Not "I don't like Whole Foods"
We already knew this about you. Go back to McDonalds.
(edited for capitalization)
This. I'm glad you posted it though, because the very scientifically proven medicine I'm taking right now apparently makes me mean and looking to argue.0 -
I don't disagree with that either.
Look at us, just agreeing right and left. :drinker:
I'm also a liberal though, so most of the religious people don't want much to do with me. :laugh:
eta: the anti-GMO campaign also has political ramifications though.
:drinker:
Yes, I think very little anymore doesn't have political ramifications. But even Domino's Pizza does (did?)0 -
I don't disagree with that either.
Look at us, just agreeing right and left. :drinker:
I'm also a liberal though, so most of the religious people don't want much to do with me. :laugh:
eta: the anti-GMO campaign also has political ramifications though.
:drinker:
Yes, I think very little anymore doesn't have political ramifications. But even Domino's Pizza does (did?)
*Papa John's0 -
The only time I was ever in a Whole Foods I walked by an employee giving a talk/seminar to about 10 people on the Master Cleanse and explaining why you had to use organic maple syrup and lemon juice to get the best results. That was enough for me to know that I didn't need to shop there
This is another good example.
Do you think there is point at which you would stop shopping at WH?
You mean WF? I don't shop there, but I would have no problem doing so. I just don't.
I'm not boycotting the place or asking anyone else to. I'm sharing an article that I think makes some quality insights about it.
Sorry, yeah, did mean WF.
I though I had read one of your posts that said you did like some of their products so assumed you shopped there. (too lazy to go back and check, so maybe you didn't say that)
Interesting article, thanks.0 -
I couldn't get past the author's marked disdain for conservatives (real or imagined) nor Christianity-- throws around "anti-scince" as a foregone conclusion. While I might be inclined to agree there is much hype in Whole Foods (and places like them), his unsubstantiated disdain for religious adherents doesn't do his thesis any favors.0
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I couldn't get past the author's marked disdain for conservatives (real or imagined) nor Christianity-- throws around "anti-scince" as a foregone conclusion. While I might be inclined to agree there is much hype in Whole Foods (and places like them), his unsubstantiated disdain for religious adherents doesn't do his thesis any favors.
He talks about creationists specifically, not Christianity in general. The word Christian doesn't even appear in the article. And if you think creationism isn't anti-science, then I'm not sure I have much more to say to you on the topic.0 -
I thought the placebo effect works, a lot of times. So even if the product doesn't work from a biochemical standpoint, it could from a psychological standpoint, which can create real physiological effects, right? So maybe these are effective products for the ignorant.0
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Doesn't have to, Context is important.He talks about creationists specifically, not Christianity in general. The word Christian doesn't even appear in the article.
What makes you think that it is?And if you think creationism isn't anti-science, then I'm not sure I have much more to say to you on the topic.
Your sense of irony is wholly lacking.0 -
Doesn't have to, Context is important.He talks about creationists specifically, not Christianity in general. The word Christian doesn't even appear in the article.
What makes you think that it is?And if you think creationism isn't anti-science, then I'm not sure I have much more to say to you on the topic.
Your sense of irony is wholly lacking.
Think that what? Creationism is anti-science?0
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