Whole Foods: the Temple of Pseudoscience.
Replies
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You just summed up the entirety of TheDailyBeast-- Proving there can be a worse iteration of SlateEssentially he's simply writing it for the benefit of people who already agree with him and don't need to be persuaded.0 -
Now that the strong impulse to argue has left me, I'm feeling a bit of guilt for taking it out on your thread. :flowerforyou: I'm going back into observation mode ...0
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What makes you think that science is anti-creation (or it's recently repackaged iteration: intelligent design)?Think that what? Creationism is anti-science?0 -
Awe! But you're always so nice about it. Don't hide. ((((Hugs))))Now that the strong impulse to argue has left me, I'm feeling a bit of guilt for taking it out on your thread. :flowerforyou: I'm going back into observation mode ...
You provide good discission.0 -
What makes you think that science is anti-creation (or it's recently repackaged iteration: intelligent design)?Think that what? Creationism is anti-science?
Not sure what "anti-creation" means. Creationism is anti-science in that it rejects scientific principles and theories. I'm not going to discuss the merits of creationism.0 -
Awe! But you're always so nice about it. Don't hide. ((((Hugs))))Now that the strong impulse to argue has left me, I'm feeling a bit of guilt for taking it out on your thread. :flowerforyou: I'm going back into observation mode ...
You provide good discission.
:flowerforyou: Aww thank you. So sweet! I think we'll all be better off if I read instead of post tonight, though! :laugh:0 -
I thought the placebo effect works, a lot of times. So even if the product doesn't work from a biochemical standpoint, it could from a psychological standpoint, which can create real physiological effects, right? So maybe these are effective products for the ignorant.
Well, it depends on your definition of works I guess. To me it doesn't work. It just makes a person think it's working. But there's no measurable physiological change.0 -
Awe! But you're always so nice about it. Don't hide. ((((Hugs))))Now that the strong impulse to argue has left me, I'm feeling a bit of guilt for taking it out on your thread. :flowerforyou: I'm going back into observation mode ...
You provide good discission.
Agreed.0 -
Awe! But you're always so nice about it. Don't hide. ((((Hugs))))Now that the strong impulse to argue has left me, I'm feeling a bit of guilt for taking it out on your thread. :flowerforyou: I'm going back into observation mode ...
You provide good discission.
Agreed.
:smooched: 0 -
In...
...for post-workout reading.0 -
The place sells homeopathic remedies. That's not "anecdotal evidence" that fails under scrutiny. It establishes that the store sells pseudoscience.
Homeopathic remedies are a tiny tiny tiny part of Whole Foods business. They make most of their money by having incredibly fresh and good tasting food. They get fresh fish in 6 days per week. And besides, not all the supplements they sell are homeopahthic.
Whole Foods also sells an enormous quantity of hard to find supplements which have been demonstrated in WESTERN MEDICINE peer reviewed studies to have benefits. For example, you can't find probiotics for newborns at any other store. Yet physicians often recommend them for newborns who need antibiotics and are bottle fed. Physicians also occasionally recommend supplements like grapefruit seed extract, which you'd never find anywhere else.0 -
Bump0
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When you figure out the difference between a principle and a conclusion, let us all know. Its in the interests of all parties involved. But otherwise, thanks for the lulz.Not sure what "anti-creation" means. Creationism is anti-science in that it rejects scientific principles and theories. I'm not going to discuss the merits of creationism.0 -
I am a little surprised by some of the responses to this thread but then perhaps I shouldn't be.
It is quite right, in my view, to express distaste at McDonalds for being one of the biggest, if not the biggest, distributors of children's toys in the world because they want to capture consumers at the earliest age possible. It is quite right, in my view, to express distaste at Coca Cola at sponsoring sporting events so as to co-opt the positive experiences from exercise at associate with their products.
By the same token it is quite right to express distaste at Whole Foods for hawking products which are in essence utter rubbish simply because they are falsely enshrined with a health halo. In fact it maybe worse because people are more likely to associate WF as being an ethical company and trust that they will provide them products which will actively improve their health.
It is all very well saying caveat emptor (buyer beware) but there is a big power balance difference between consumers and a company of this size. They have a huge amount of resources to throw at marketing pitted against the collective intelligence of consumers which even at its highest falls for a large range of ploys to separate them from their money.0 -
:ohwell: Nevermind..........0
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OP quote starts here:
I see.
Well I have. I suggest you do so as well. I'm certain you will conclude it [homeopathy] is firmly somewhere between pseudoscience, outright science rejection, and magic.
I didnt know Whole Foods sold the stuff. I'm disturbed that they do.
OP quote ends here.
I've not read OP's article and only read this thread to here, but had to reply. IMHO ^^^this^^^ is a ridiculous statement! Disturbed that a store/Whole Foods sells homeopathic remedies?? Really?? I can agree that when you take the right remedy, it can certainly seem like magic. ............Meh..........sorry, I'm going to leave my reply there as I just realized I don't have the time or energy to try to put together the words that intelligently express MHO in a way that would make one iota of diff in this thread.
ETA: to show what I quoted as it didn't show as quoted.
No, homeopathy is a useless, potentially dangerous pseudoscience. It's also rather expensive, consider all you're buying is plain water. It's the ultimate snake oil.0 -
I've not read OP's article and only read this thread to here, but had to reply. IMHO ^^^this^^^ is a ridiculous statement! Disturbed that a store/Whole Foods sells homeopathic remedies?? Really?? I can agree that when you take the right remedy, it can certainly seem like magic. ............Meh..........sorry, I'm going to leave my reply there as I just realized I don't have the time or energy to try to put together the words that intelligently express MHO in a way that would make one iota of diff in this thread.
It's importantt o understand that homeopathy isn't just folk or herbal remedies or traditional medicine. Here's a Wikipedia quote:
the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic remedies addressed these. The remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body. Dilution usually continues well past the point where no molecules of the original substance remain. Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.
The scientific community regards homeopathy as nonsense, quackery, or a sham, and homeopathic practice has been criticized as unethical. The axioms of homeopathy are long refuted and lack any biological plausibility. Although some clinical trials produce positive results, systematic reviews reveal that this is because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. The postulated mechanisms of action of homeopathic remedies are both scientifically implausible and physically impossible0 -
I am a little surprised by some of the responses to this thread but then perhaps I shouldn't be.
It is quite right, in my view, to express distaste at McDonalds for being one of the biggest, if not the biggest, distributors of children's toys in the world because they want to capture consumers at the earliest age possible. It is quite right, in my view, to express distaste at Coca Cola at sponsoring sporting events so as to co-opt the positive experiences from exercise at associate with their products.
By the same token it is quite right to express distaste at Whole Foods for hawking products which are in essence utter rubbish simply because they are falsely enshrined with a health halo. In fact it maybe worse because people are more likely to associate WF as being an ethical company and trust that they will provide them products which will actively improve their health.
It is all very well saying caveat emptor (buyer beware) but there is a big power balance difference between consumers and a company of this size. They have a huge amount of resources to throw at marketing pitted against the collective intelligence of consumers which even at its highest falls for a large range of ploys to separate them from their money.
Thank you. This is a great post.0 -
I've not read OP's article and only read this thread to here, but had to reply. IMHO ^^^this^^^ is a ridiculous statement! Disturbed that a store/Whole Foods sells homeopathic remedies?? Really?? I can agree that when you take the right remedy, it can certainly seem like magic. ............Meh..........sorry, I'm going to leave my reply there as I just realized I don't have the time or energy to try to put together the words that intelligently express MHO in a way that would make one iota of diff in this thread.
It's importantt o understand that homeopathy isn't just folk or herbal remedies or traditional medicine. Here's a Wikipedia quote:
the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic remedies addressed these. The remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body. Dilution usually continues well past the point where no molecules of the original substance remain. Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.
The scientific community regards homeopathy as nonsense, quackery, or a sham, and homeopathic practice has been criticized as unethical. The axioms of homeopathy are long refuted and lack any biological plausibility. Although some clinical trials produce positive results, systematic reviews reveal that this is because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. The postulated mechanisms of action of homeopathic remedies are both scientifically implausible and physically impossible
Thank you, I do understand how homeopathic solutions are prepared. I don't understand how they work, but I will simply say that i have had the experience of homeopathic remedies working for me and I appreciate that stores like Whole Foods and my local food co-operative sell them.0 -
I don't understand how they work
Oh that part's easy: they don't. Homeopathy is 19th-century witchcraft. The only reason it has survived whereas chants and incantations have not is because the magic is imbued into water or sugar, which makes it available in a bottle or pill. People generally believe that bottles and pills contain some sort of substance or chemical that has some effect on the body. Homeopathic preparations literally don't have anything in them.0 -
By the same token it is quite right to express distaste at Whole Foods for hawking products which are in essence utter rubbish simply because they are falsely enshrined with a health halo. In fact it maybe worse because people are more likely to associate WF as being an ethical company and trust that they will provide them products which will actively improve their health.
It is all very well saying caveat emptor (buyer beware) but there is a big power balance difference between consumers and a company of this size. They have a huge amount of resources to throw at marketing pitted against the collective intelligence of consumers which even at its highest falls for a large range of ploys to separate them from their money.
If Whole Foods was primarily a homeopathic remedies store, and advertised their homeopathic products then maybe you'd have a point. But Whole Foods carries an enormous selection of supplements including supplements that physicians recommend and are hard to find anywhere else. Yes, if you want a homeopathic supplement then Whole Foods will sell it to you. But I have never seen any advertisment from Whole Foods making false claims about homeopathic supplements.0 -
By the same token it is quite right to express distaste at Whole Foods for hawking products which are in essence utter rubbish simply because they are falsely enshrined with a health halo. In fact it maybe worse because people are more likely to associate WF as being an ethical company and trust that they will provide them products which will actively improve their health.
It is all very well saying caveat emptor (buyer beware) but there is a big power balance difference between consumers and a company of this size. They have a huge amount of resources to throw at marketing pitted against the collective intelligence of consumers which even at its highest falls for a large range of ploys to separate them from their money.
If Whole Foods was primarily a homeopathic remedies store, and advertised their homeopathic products then maybe you'd have a point. But Whole Foods carries an enormous selection of supplements including supplements that physicians recommend and are hard to find anywhere else. Yes, if you want a homeopathic supplement then Whole Foods will sell it to you. But I have never seen any advertisment from Whole Foods making false claims about homeopathic supplements.
Whole Foods builds its business on a culture of pseudoscience health claims and beliefs about all manner of things. Homeopathy is simply the most blatant, inarguable example. Separate bread slicers for organic vs "conventional" bread is another.0 -
If Whole Foods was primarily a homeopathic remedies store, and advertised their homeopathic products then maybe you'd have a point. But Whole Foods carries an enormous selection of supplements including supplements that physicians recommend and are hard to find anywhere else. Yes, if you want a homeopathic supplement then Whole Foods will sell it to you. But I have never seen any advertisment from Whole Foods making false claims about homeopathic supplements.
But buy selling homeopathic remedies they give them a veneer of legitimacy. It is not ethical behaviour from a company which apparently values "health." Well, just not the health of their customers buying homeopathic products...0 -
Wouldn't you say that Whole Foods has a reputation and/or image for being ethically superior to, say, Walmart?0
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I am declaring that I have no problems with genetically modified foods.
Ditto!0 -
Whole Foods builds its business on a culture of pseudoscience health claims and beliefs about all manner of things. Homeopathy is simply the most blatant, inarguable example. Separate bread slicers for organic vs "conventional" bread is another.
It's much more likely that the separate slicers came as the result of customer complaint and they built it into the marketing. People complain about anything and everything, and I can admit as a vegan, I worry about cross contamination. Again, I don't worry about organic, but I imagine someone does, and people do complain.
I don't see Whole Foods as a health food store, but maybe that's because so much of what I buy there is the glorified vegan junk food that is hard to find. I disagree that Whole Foods builds its business on what you say it does, and I think that up until now they have built their business by virtue of often being the only game in town. This article is 10 years too late. As WF has more and more competition, not only from other specialty stores but from the neighborhood grocery store, it will be interesting to see what happens to their marketing.
It's odd to see you putting responsibility for purchases on the businesses. I'm not sure you would have agreed with the McDonald's post in another thread. I don't like everything about business practice. I'm a lot more concerned about the worker/wage angle, but that's a locked thread waiting to happen. Worst case scenario: every single homeopathic product that WF sells is made entirely out of water or sugar and is magic. What's the difference between that and being able to buy prayer beads or other religious imagery? You may say that people recognize them as symbolic only. That's true for some, not for a great many people. Worst case scenario: homeopathic products at WF are based 100% on magic. I don't want them, but for someone who believes in that magic, what's the difference? Is that ethically different than selling "super palatable foods" that are created based on science to exploit the way humans respond to fat and sugar? I usually don't buy those either, because I know how I respond to them, but I imagine people would be pretty ticked if that option went away because I think it's manipulative. And no, cookies are not doing anything for anyone besides bringing pleasure. Very few people buying them truly "need" the calories and sugar in them and would get more than enough calories choosing from non super palatable foods. People buy them for pleasure, and that's ok.
You don't wander into WF accidentally and find yourself adrift in a potions section and plunk down all your hard earned cash. It just doesn't happen. If it does, at what point does the person have responsibility for their purchase?
I like the symbolism of crystals. I don't believe they actually do anything, but different ones remind me of different traits or aspects. If I were able to buy them at Whole Foods, who are you to tell them that they are unethical for selling something I've enjoyed since childhood? Until Whole Foods sells them as actual treatment for cancer, I'm not buying that they are more unethical than the local drug store selling homeopathy. And actually, neither are you. You agree with me. That's why you won't shop at CVS but will at WF if you need something. People expect pharmacies to sell accepted medically effective treatments. Anyone can easily end up in a CVS looking for a remedy for their sick spouse. You don't accidentally show up at Whole Foods, and if you do, you realize you've walked into a fancy grocery store, and like every grocery store, they have a vitamins, beauty, remedies section.
As a long time WF shopper, I've never purchased homeopathy there. Having the option doesn't make us helpless to resist. On that note, though, I do think children should be taught the realities of advertising. The freedom we have often gives companies a lot of freedom and wiggle room too. People think everyone knows that models are airbrushed. They don't until someone teaches you that. If you are looking at a picture for foundation and powder, and the makeup has flawless, poreless skin, it's reasonable that a child/teen assumes that the product did that for them. Maybe the next generations will be more savvy. But that's my point-advertising will get more savvy too. Businesses will do what's within their right to do. That's why children would benefit from being taught about the importance of researching what you put into your body and not just trusting that it's ok because it's there. And the easiest example of that is cigarettes. Of all the things to worry about, WF selling homeopathic products, which are currently legal, is just reaching. People should be able to expect that labels cannot outright lie to them. If WF were selling bottles of poison marketed as Rescue Remedy, I'd have a major ethical issue with that. I have stopped shopping at stores and will not buy many brands over ethical issues. If WF were selling poison, I'd thank the lucky stars for the internet and competitors and not shop there anymore. But that's just not happening, and I think the article was a lazy grab to capitalize on people's reactions to stores like WF. That's ok. I'm not worried about WF, the author can have his opinion, and that's my opinion on his article.0 -
"What's the difference between that and being able to buy prayer beads or other religious imagery?"
People know that religion isn't science. There's a difference between religion and pseudoscience. Religion isn't based on faulty science.
I'll respond at greater length later.0 -
"What's the difference between that and being able to buy prayer beads or other religious imagery?"
People know that religion isn't science. There's a difference between religion and pseudoscience. Religion isn't based on faulty science.
I'll respond at greater length later.
No, religion makes bigger claims and children are often taught that questioning these claims means they don't have faith, an implied sin and ticket to a damned afterlife. People know that religion isn't science-they often think it trumps science.0 -
Well, I had a look at WF's mission statement and core values Amongst them was this:We Sell the Highest Quality Natural and Organic Products Available
Passion For Food
We appreciate and celebrate the difference natural and organic products can make in the quality of one's life.
Quality Standards
We have high standards and our goal is to sell the highest quality products we possibly can. We define quality by evaluating the ingredients, freshness, safety, taste, nutritive value and appearance of all of the products we carry. We are buying agents for our customers and not the selling agents for the manufacturers.
It seems to me that WF very much position themselves as a "health" food store. What exactly are the differences that natural and organic products are supposed to achieve in one's life other than improved health and well being?
Do consumers have a duty to keep themselves informed? Sure. Do companies have a duty not to mislead consumers and how does one define "misleading"? Depends who you ask.
To be fair lots of companies exploit the concept of "health" to sell products usually based on over exaggerated and sometimes virtually non existent benefits. At the moment in the UK there has been an explosion in popularity of "breakfast biscuits" which apparently are a good way to start your day as they are "fortified" with groovy vitamins and have yummy whole grains and "help" keep you full (what like food in general you mean. Or sawdust). They taste awesome too. They also have more calories, sat fat and sugar than normal biscuits. All of this is fine unless you are an uninformed consumer.
Of which there are many.0 -
Well, I had a look at WF's mission statement and core values Amongst them was this:We Sell the Highest Quality Natural and Organic Products Available
Passion For Food
We appreciate and celebrate the difference natural and organic products can make in the quality of one's life.
Quality Standards
We have high standards and our goal is to sell the highest quality products we possibly can. We define quality by evaluating the ingredients, freshness, safety, taste, nutritive value and appearance of all of the products we carry. We are buying agents for our customers and not the selling agents for the manufacturers.
It seems to me that WF very much position themselves as a "health" food store. What exactly are the differences that natural and organic products are supposed to achieve in one's life other than improved health and well being?
Do consumers have a duty to keep themselves informed? Sure. Do companies have a duty not to mislead consumers and how does one define "misleading"? Depends who you ask.
To be fair lots of companies exploit the concept of "health" to sell products usually based on over exaggerated and sometimes virtually non existent benefits. At the moment in the UK there has been an explosion in popularity of "breakfast biscuits" which apparently are a good way to start your day as they are "fortified" with groovy vitamins and have yummy whole grains and "help" keep you full (what like food in general you mean. Or sawdust). They taste awesome too. They also have more calories, sat fat and sugar than normal biscuits. All of this is fine unless you are an uninformed consumer.
Of which there are many.
There are many. But until Whole Foods gets rid of their prominent candy and chip aisles, I'm not going to buy that anyone really thinks that everything within is a "health item." There are many uneducated consumers. We need to worry more about them at McDonalds than we do at Whole Foods. But when fast food does it, it's just good business and giving people what they want. This is McDonald's mission values statement, fWIW:Values in Action
From the start, we've been committed to doing the right thing. And we've got the policies, programs and practices in place that allow us to use our size and scope to help make a difference. Because what's good for us, is good for us all.
I now have every confidence that everything I purchase from McDonald's is the right thing and most definitely ethical. I can now surrender my beliefs about fair wages and vegetarianism because McDonald's is and always has been committed to doing the right thing.
Again, until corporations with a lot more impact on the average consumer are taken to task for every product they contain on their shelves, this is just an easy grab to put down a store based on it being acceptable to judge places that are alternatively known as "Whole Paycheck." Whole Foods can get in line behind McDonald's, Walmart, and about a billion other places in the list of places putting a large group of people at any kind of real risk. (Google Homeopathy and Target. You'll get results for that too.)0
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