Paleo vs. Clean eating?
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Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Well said.0 -
Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?
the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..
Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…
so this is really not a legitimate comparison.0 -
Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
^^^^^ this0 -
Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?
the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..
Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…
so this is really not a legitimate comparison.
^^^^^^ NOT this0 -
A person who doesn't believe anymore isn't a Catholic. He or she might have been RAISED Catholic, but Catholicism is a belief system. While there may be some minor variations, there is a set of core beliefs that define Catholicism that differentiates it from other Christian religions. Once a person rejects those beliefs, he or she is no longer Catholic. The individual doesn't set those definitions. Those were set LONG before that person was born.
Someone who believes that divorce is wrong and doesn't believe in God isn't a "10% Catholic", but an atheist.
As far as I'm concerned, the same thing goes for Paleo. Either you are or you aren't. Once you start picking and choosing cafeteria style, you just aren't.
Well, I know many a Catholic that would disagree with you on that, and tell you that Catholic is far more than a mere belief system. But feel free to argue with them this point as well. I'm sure they've heard it before and would just smile, shake their head and tell you "that's all very modern, dear".
I would think that your friends who consider themselves Catholic but don't believe or practice would probably not go on religion websites and say things like "Caholocism works great for me! I'm Catholic except how I don't practice! Feel free to ask me about what Catholocism can do for you!" Like some of the posters in this thread have done in regards to "Paleo".
Or if they did, they really shouldn't be surprised when others call them out on their BS.
But then again, maybe they would.
ETA: Clarified by adding "re Paleo"
^^^^^^ Or that.0 -
Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Religion might be an extreme example, but I wasn't the first to propose it. I certainly didn't involve ethnicity because that's not a choice.
My point being that if you hold yourself up as an example of something... If you choose to be a leader... You should put your money where your mouth is.
When we have no boundaries, words lose their meanings. And therein lies the problem... We've already seen that with "clean eating"... It means nothing, really, because everyone has a different definition of it.0 -
This is definitely OT, but I'm saying it anyhow...Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?
the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..
Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…
so this is really not a legitimate comparison.
On the forums, I'm seeing a shift in what people consider IIFYM.
It seems that there is an "80/20" component arising in it, along with macros being set by methods that MFP doesn't use.
I certainly could be wrong, but it's my observation. Since that's what I'm seeing and that's not what I'm doing, I'm moving away from using that term to describe what I'm doing.
Not trying to debate about it... I'm certainly all for calorie deficit for weight loss!0 -
I tried Paleo for an autoimmune condition (recommended to try to avoid wheat) but it was too much meat for me so it didn't last long. I only really can tolerate chicken and tried to branch out to other things, but had a hard time with it. I didn't feel good eating that much meat and that much fat either. I know it works well for a lot of people and whatever works for someone is great.0
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Considering this thread is 13 pages long, I am going to assume it was derailed long ago... Without reading what anyone else has written, OP: I eat based on what *feels* best for me. It just happens to be most similar to paleo. (I read up on paleo after I began eating this way...) My advice is to do what works for you and what feels best to you.
ETA: I don't eat quite as much meat as paleo seems to suggest. I do eat meat, but only certain kinds, and lots and lots of veggies. Again, my focus is more on how I feel.0 -
Paleo is a stupid trend diet.0
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This is definitely OT, but I'm saying it anyhow...Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?
the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..
Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…
so this is really not a legitimate comparison.
On the forums, I'm seeing a shift in what people consider IIFYM.
It seems that there is an "80/20" component arising in it, along with macros being set by methods that MFP doesn't use.
I certainly could be wrong, but it's my observation. Since that's what I'm seeing and that's not what I'm doing, I'm moving away from using that term to describe what I'm doing.
Not trying to debate about it... I'm certainly all for calorie deficit for weight loss!
I do not really follow it either…I guess I do if you consider it 'eating the foods that you want to' ….I just do what has been working for me ..
however, I have never seen anyone that does IIFYM claim that it is a cure all be all …as a lot of the Paleo folks claim to ..
my only point was that it is not a valid comparison...0 -
No. In fact my TSH levels have been steady for years, with no need for increased medication. There is nothing I restrict from my diet. Immune disorders are tricky because they wax and wane and the reasons for that have remained elusive in most cases.
If I went Paleo and it helped, what would be my response in your opinion? That my thyroid would start producing more hormone? Is that what happened in your case?
How are you T3 and T4 levels? It's my understanding that TSH is wholly unreliable for Hashi's, though I may be incorrect on that. For example, in a round of blood tests a while back, my TSH was totally in the normal range, but both my T3 and T4 were super low.
I believe the idea behind it is that certain things in diet trigger the autoimmune response, so the body attacks your thyroid or thyroid function, you end up initially hypo, your thyroid (to the extent it's still able to do so), kicks into high gear to compensate and you then swing back hyper. If your thyroid is extensively damaged (as it eventually ends up in Hashi's), you may not longer have the ability to even swing hyper anymore -- so just varying levels of hypo/normal or more hypo and less hypo.
So, the idea is that if you can minimize the triggering events, you can keep or maintain more of your normal thyroid function for longer, requiring less medication. Also, I know that there are some endos who believe treating with both T4 and T3 helps Hash's in particular and then there is the debate of synthetic versus natural dessicated.
As for what happened in my case, it's hard to say. I didn't have the diagnosis at the time, so I didn't have a lot the blood tests being monitored. I didn't get the diagnosis until about a year of eating Primal or so. Personally, the big thing I noticed was it helped with fatigue and better sleep (two common hypo symptoms). I had far fewer crushing fatigue episodes -- and those that I had were not as long in duration (were a couple days long versus up to 2-3 weeks). But, it was also found that I have insulin resistance as well, and that may have been contributing to the fatigue.
My endocrinologist at the time was testing all pituitary hormone related levels, of which TSH is one. Your body senses low thyroid hormones and produces thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to bring levels back to normal. I was put on replacement hormone until my TSH levels were reduced to 'normal'. I may have had T3 and T4 levels checked at some time, I don't recall. I have not had the money to test for anything other than TSH in many years, and it has remained steady. No fatigue type symptoms at all.
It is my understanding that once your immune system starts destroying your thyroid, it is not going to come back. You can slow the destruction (perhaps) if your immune system is over reacting due to some dietary factor but that is all theoretical at this point as far as I know. I know that some people also suffer physical symptoms from the thyroid inflammation itself, though I never have.0 -
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I don't think that the application of the operational definition is important. Talking about the definition, yes. Whether any specific individual is complying in order to discuss? No. If someone eats Paleo 70% of the time, then they get 70% of the benefits -- and frankly I don't care if they self-style themselves Paleo/Primal or not. I don't think it's an all-or-nothing premise. And what I'm discussing is the benefits of Paleo/Primal, not the perfection in the application.
Are we talking about a specific individual here? I honestly can't remember. I haven't looked at your diary or Tennisdude's. What
Tennisdude's diary is empty despite the invitation to view it as a way to 'prove' their point. No credibility there at all
As far as the conversation it went Paleo and clean eating. My stance as someone who eats as clean as possible is that it makes sense to avoid certain food additives that have the potential to cause harm. We've always eaten this way so nothing new other than with it takes a bit more effort to stay ahead of the food industry. As far as I can see, clean eating is more about avoiding food additives especially artificial, pesticide residues, and growth hormones. I'm sorry, but I don't want to eat meat glue 
Paleo eating includes the elimination of foods like grains so I do think in many ways it is a lot more restrictive than the way we eat. 0 -
Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Religion might be an extreme example, but I wasn't the first to propose it. I certainly didn't involve ethnicity because that's not a choice.
My point being that if you hold yourself up as an example of something... If you choose to be a leader... You should put your money where your mouth is.
When we have no boundaries, words lose their meanings. And therein lies the problem... We've already seen that with "clean eating"... It means nothing, really, because everyone has a different definition of it.
Lol. Black and white world you live in. Sad.
I'm vegan. Check out my diary if you don't believe me.0 -
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Yes. Chill out, goddamnit. :flowerforyou:
So we can define who is Paleo but not who is not? O-tay.
I actually do care about shades of gray, but that doesn't mean that definitions cease to matter.
I'm sure there is something in your life that is important to you to define.
And while someone eating peanut butter might get a little flack for not being "pure paleo," I doubt most people are bothering discussing that.
I see you play the guitar. Will you teach me to play the violin?0 -
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I just read a book called 'Grain Brain' by an American Neurologist called Dr Perlmutter. The premise of the book is simple. He claims and has the evidence to show that Gluten can't be tolerated by most people. He advocates a gluten free, low carb, higher fat diet with an emphasis on oily fish and supplements that help the brain. So I thought. I'd give it a go. So using MFP to monitor my carbs, fats and proteins I dropped gluten from my diet and limited my carbs as much as I could. Well the surprise for me is that in less than two weeks I started to visibly see my middle-age man's belly fat that NEVER shifted start to reduce. Not only that but I feel better, my bowels no longer groan all day long and I look physically better. I've also more energy and have dropped fat all over and gained muscle. Admittedly I do exercise a lot, cardio one day, kettlebells the next, all at home and a lot of walking, to-from work and the dog as well, but it seems to work. His book basically does advocate a paleo diet, however I live in England and there's not that much choice out there and I just don't have the time to be fussy. Just make an effort to reduce the carbs and go gluten free wherever you can without getting obsessed about it is all I've done. It seems to be working for me.0
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Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Religion might be an extreme example, but I wasn't the first to propose it. I certainly didn't involve ethnicity because that's not a choice.
My point being that if you hold yourself up as an example of something... If you choose to be a leader... You should put your money where your mouth is.
When we have no boundaries, words lose their meanings. And therein lies the problem... We've already seen that with "clean eating"... It means nothing, really, because everyone has a different definition of it.
Lol. Black and white world you live in. Sad.
I'm vegan. Check out my diary if you don't believe me.
Oh, I don't care. I'm just making a point that if someone says they're Paleo and still eats peanut butter, they are Paleo. It doesn't have to be pure because Paleo is bull**** anyway. It's just a way to eat clean and avoid junk food and stuff. It doesn't matter at all, and has zero impact on my life. I fail to understand why people get all freaky about it.
I don't like when people spread ignorance. That's why I have a "bone to pick" with all the Paleo stuff.
There's so much crap information out there that many, many people get frustrated and give up on trying to get to and maintain a healthy weight. That's a shame.
And just to point out, you are saying that I am "sad" because I shouldn't be so harshly judgmental of other peoples' diet choices, but it's okay for you to be judgmental of me. :noway:
Pot... meet kettle...0 -
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Lol.
The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol
You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.
Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Heheh. Cranky. Cute pic btw. 0 -
Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.
That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.
People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)0 -
Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?
the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..
Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…
so this is really not a legitimate comparison.
But what are the intended macros? Do they vary for each individual? Or is there a range? Because how you describe it, it sounds just like caloric deficit, and I'm trying to figure out if there is something more than that -- like aiming for a certain percentage of protein, of fat, etc.?0 -
No. In fact my TSH levels have been steady for years, with no need for increased medication. There is nothing I restrict from my diet. Immune disorders are tricky because they wax and wane and the reasons for that have remained elusive in most cases.
If I went Paleo and it helped, what would be my response in your opinion? That my thyroid would start producing more hormone? Is that what happened in your case?
How are you T3 and T4 levels? It's my understanding that TSH is wholly unreliable for Hashi's, though I may be incorrect on that. For example, in a round of blood tests a while back, my TSH was totally in the normal range, but both my T3 and T4 were super low.
I believe the idea behind it is that certain things in diet trigger the autoimmune response, so the body attacks your thyroid or thyroid function, you end up initially hypo, your thyroid (to the extent it's still able to do so), kicks into high gear to compensate and you then swing back hyper. If your thyroid is extensively damaged (as it eventually ends up in Hashi's), you may not longer have the ability to even swing hyper anymore -- so just varying levels of hypo/normal or more hypo and less hypo.
So, the idea is that if you can minimize the triggering events, you can keep or maintain more of your normal thyroid function for longer, requiring less medication. Also, I know that there are some endos who believe treating with both T4 and T3 helps Hash's in particular and then there is the debate of synthetic versus natural dessicated.
As for what happened in my case, it's hard to say. I didn't have the diagnosis at the time, so I didn't have a lot the blood tests being monitored. I didn't get the diagnosis until about a year of eating Primal or so. Personally, the big thing I noticed was it helped with fatigue and better sleep (two common hypo symptoms). I had far fewer crushing fatigue episodes -- and those that I had were not as long in duration (were a couple days long versus up to 2-3 weeks). But, it was also found that I have insulin resistance as well, and that may have been contributing to the fatigue.
My endocrinologist at the time was testing all pituitary hormone related levels, of which TSH is one. Your body senses low thyroid hormones and produces thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to bring levels back to normal. I was put on replacement hormone until my TSH levels were reduced to 'normal'. I may have had T3 and T4 levels checked at some time, I don't recall. I have not had the money to test for anything other than TSH in many years, and it has remained steady. No fatigue type symptoms at all.
It is my understanding that once your immune system starts destroying your thyroid, it is not going to come back. You can slow the destruction (perhaps) if your immune system is over reacting due to some dietary factor but that is all theoretical at this point as far as I know. I know that some people also suffer physical symptoms from the thyroid inflammation itself, though I never have.
I think that is the traditional approach by many endos -- waiting until the TSH levels fluctuate to treat and treat based on that. Some are starting to look past that, to T3, T4, antibody levels and clinical symptoms rather live and die by TSH as they're finding more and more Hashi's people with symproms, antibodies and low T4 and T3 levels (but normal-ish TSH). Some of the belief is if they treat earlier and find a away to minimize triggers, they can preserve more of the natural thyroid function longer by minimizing the destruction.0 -
Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.
That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.
People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)
I think the idea you're missing is that some degree of variability does not equal no definition. I've explained many of the variables for Primal, and so long as you're within those variables, you'd be considered Primal. Though what that is going to look like for each individual will vary (within said variables). The definition is flexible, not fixed, in that regard, but there still is definition.0 -
Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.
That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.
People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)
I think the idea you're missing is that some degree of variability does not equal no definition. I've explained many of the variables for Primal, and so long as you're within those variables, you'd be considered Primal. Though what that is going to look like for each individual will vary (within said variables). The definition is flexible, not fixed, in that regard, but there still is definition.
Indeed, as the primal blueprint diet plan was developed by Mark Sisson's (therefore his definition would be conclusive of what constitutes following a primal blueprint diet), he himself advocates an 80/20 rule. He even spoke about this on one of his Podcast earlier this year.
So therefore for myself and Lindsey, if we chose to eat in that ratio (I personally do not - because the 20% food no longer interest me) we are following the diet plan and can therefore wear the badge (if we were of the kind to do so - I personally am not. I can't speak for Lindsey but I would hazard a guess she isn't either).0 -
Hey, I play guitar, but it's classical, most people just look at me and say, yeah, that was interesting.Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.
Yes. Chill out, goddamnit. :flowerforyou:
So we can define who is Paleo but not who is not? O-tay.
I actually do care about shades of gray, but that doesn't mean that definitions cease to matter.
I'm sure there is something in your life that is important to you to define.
And while someone eating peanut butter might get a little flack for not being "pure paleo," I doubt most people are bothering discussing that.
I see you play the guitar. Will you teach me to play the violin?
Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.0 -
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