Paleo vs. Clean eating?

DamePiglet

Lol.

The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol

You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Religion might be an extreme example, but I wasn't the first to propose it. I certainly didn't involve ethnicity because that's not a choice.
My point being that if you hold yourself up as an example of something... If you choose to be a leader... You should put your money where your mouth is.

When we have no boundaries, words lose their meanings. And therein lies the problem... We've already seen that with "clean eating"... It means nothing, really, because everyone has a different definition of it.

Lol. Black and white world you live in. Sad.

I'm vegan. Check out my diary if you don't believe me.

Oh, I don't care. I'm just making a point that if someone says they're Paleo and still eats peanut butter, they are Paleo. It doesn't have to be pure because Paleo is bull**** anyway. It's just a way to eat clean and avoid junk food and stuff. It doesn't matter at all, and has zero impact on my life. I fail to understand why people get all freaky about it.

I don't like when people spread ignorance. That's why I have a "bone to pick" with all the Paleo stuff.

There's so much crap information out there that many, many people get frustrated and give up on trying to get to and maintain a healthy weight. That's a shame.

And just to point out, you are saying that I am "sad" because I shouldn't be so harshly judgmental of other peoples' diet choices, but it's okay for you to be judgmental of me. :noway:

Pot... meet kettle...

QuietBloom

Lol.

The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol

You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Heheh. Cranky. Cute pic btw.

FlaxMilk

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)

lindsey1979

Okay, let's try it with a different example. Let's take IIFYM. Now, do you ask people when they claim to be IIFYM, if they adhere to those macros 100% of the time, 80% of the time, 30% of the time to claim that they follow that plan? Are people that follow it only 50% of the time permitted to discuss the benefits and detriments of the theory at all? Is there a minimum of adherence required to (1) claim the affiliation or (2) discuss the theory?

the only benefit - that i am aware of - that IIFYM claims is that if you eat in a deficit and eat the foods you want you will lose weight..

Unlike Paleo - where they claim it is a cure to every ailment known to man…

so this is really not a legitimate comparison.

But what are the intended macros? Do they vary for each individual? Or is there a range? Because how you describe it, it sounds just like caloric deficit, and I'm trying to figure out if there is something more than that -- like aiming for a certain percentage of protein, of fat, etc.?

lindsey1979

No. In fact my TSH levels have been steady for years, with no need for increased medication. There is nothing I restrict from my diet. Immune disorders are tricky because they wax and wane and the reasons for that have remained elusive in most cases.

If I went Paleo and it helped, what would be my response in your opinion? That my thyroid would start producing more hormone? Is that what happened in your case?

How are you T3 and T4 levels? It's my understanding that TSH is wholly unreliable for Hashi's, though I may be incorrect on that. For example, in a round of blood tests a while back, my TSH was totally in the normal range, but both my T3 and T4 were super low.

I believe the idea behind it is that certain things in diet trigger the autoimmune response, so the body attacks your thyroid or thyroid function, you end up initially hypo, your thyroid (to the extent it's still able to do so), kicks into high gear to compensate and you then swing back hyper. If your thyroid is extensively damaged (as it eventually ends up in Hashi's), you may not longer have the ability to even swing hyper anymore -- so just varying levels of hypo/normal or more hypo and less hypo.

So, the idea is that if you can minimize the triggering events, you can keep or maintain more of your normal thyroid function for longer, requiring less medication. Also, I know that there are some endos who believe treating with both T4 and T3 helps Hash's in particular and then there is the debate of synthetic versus natural dessicated.

As for what happened in my case, it's hard to say. I didn't have the diagnosis at the time, so I didn't have a lot the blood tests being monitored. I didn't get the diagnosis until about a year of eating Primal or so. Personally, the big thing I noticed was it helped with fatigue and better sleep (two common hypo symptoms). I had far fewer crushing fatigue episodes -- and those that I had were not as long in duration (were a couple days long versus up to 2-3 weeks). But, it was also found that I have insulin resistance as well, and that may have been contributing to the fatigue.

My endocrinologist at the time was testing all pituitary hormone related levels, of which TSH is one. Your body senses low thyroid hormones and produces thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to bring levels back to normal. I was put on replacement hormone until my TSH levels were reduced to 'normal'. I may have had T3 and T4 levels checked at some time, I don't recall. I have not had the money to test for anything other than TSH in many years, and it has remained steady. No fatigue type symptoms at all.

It is my understanding that once your immune system starts destroying your thyroid, it is not going to come back. You can slow the destruction (perhaps) if your immune system is over reacting due to some dietary factor but that is all theoretical at this point as far as I know. I know that some people also suffer physical symptoms from the thyroid inflammation itself, though I never have.

I think that is the traditional approach by many endos -- waiting until the TSH levels fluctuate to treat and treat based on that. Some are starting to look past that, to T3, T4, antibody levels and clinical symptoms rather live and die by TSH as they're finding more and more Hashi's people with symproms, antibodies and low T4 and T3 levels (but normal-ish TSH). Some of the belief is if they treat earlier and find a away to minimize triggers, they can preserve more of the natural thyroid function longer by minimizing the destruction.

lindsey1979

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)

I think the idea you're missing is that some degree of variability does not equal no definition. I've explained many of the variables for Primal, and so long as you're within those variables, you'd be considered Primal. Though what that is going to look like for each individual will vary (within said variables). The definition is flexible, not fixed, in that regard, but there still is definition.

tennisdude2004

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)

I think the idea you're missing is that some degree of variability does not equal no definition. I've explained many of the variables for Primal, and so long as you're within those variables, you'd be considered Primal. Though what that is going to look like for each individual will vary (within said variables). The definition is flexible, not fixed, in that regard, but there still is definition.

Indeed, as the primal blueprint diet plan was developed by Mark Sisson's (therefore his definition would be conclusive of what constitutes following a primal blueprint diet), he himself advocates an 80/20 rule. He even spoke about this on one of his Podcast earlier this year.

So therefore for myself and Lindsey, if we chose to eat in that ratio (I personally do not - because the 20% food no longer interest me) we are following the diet plan and can therefore wear the badge (if we were of the kind to do so - I personally am not. I can't speak for Lindsey but I would hazard a guess she isn't either).

neanderthin

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Yes. Chill out, goddamnit. :flowerforyou:

So we can define who is Paleo but not who is not? O-tay.

I actually do care about shades of gray, but that doesn't mean that definitions cease to matter.

I'm sure there is something in your life that is important to you to define.

And while someone eating peanut butter might get a little flack for not being "pure paleo," I doubt most people are bothering discussing that.

I see you play the guitar. Will you teach me to play the violin?

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

Hey, I play guitar, but it's classical, most people just look at me and say, yeah, that was interesting.

tennisdude2004

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)

People with diseases are different. I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about healthy people looking at external sources for losing weight. What they should do is simply look internally. It's a rather simple problem to solve. The answer isn't in a Paleo, or any other special, diet.

If you have a disease, then of course, you may have to eat a modified diet of some sort to help. But, even that is grey, depending on severity and other issues. Diseases are not uniform.

But what if your health problems are caused by what you eat. Is it not logical to stop eating food your body finds hard to digest?

Or do you think that you should in the words of The Beautiful South - carry on regardless?

DamePiglet

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

That's good to know. I'm really no good at the guitar. Why do the different string instruments have to be held differently? Do different hand placements mean anything? Does the size or shape of the guitar matter? Can I make an acoustic sound like an electric guitar? I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

People get all freaky about it because for one thing, people are stating that the diet can help autoimmune diseases, which can be fatal or at the very least bring down the quality of life. There's a reason people with Celiac's really care if there is gluten or not. If Lindsey came over for dinner, and I served her a wheat based cake as part of a Paleo meal plan, because the other 80% was Paleo, do you think that would matter? (Assuming I didn't tell her, because you know. I followed the 80/20 guidelines and because words have no meaning, I had no idea I was possibly endangering her. I wanted some gray cake in my day.)

This is a very thoughtful reply. Well done, FlaxMilk.

DamePiglet

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Yes. Chill out, goddamnit. :flowerforyou:

So we can define who is Paleo but not who is not? O-tay.

I actually do care about shades of gray, but that doesn't mean that definitions cease to matter.

I'm sure there is something in your life that is important to you to define.

And while someone eating peanut butter might get a little flack for not being "pure paleo," I doubt most people are bothering discussing that.

I see you play the guitar. Will you teach me to play the violin?

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

Hey, I play guitar, but it's classical, most people just look at me and say, yeah, that was interesting.

YouTube or it never happened. :laugh:

likitisplit

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Yes. Chill out, goddamnit. :flowerforyou:

So we can define who is Paleo but not who is not? O-tay.

I actually do care about shades of gray, but that doesn't mean that definitions cease to matter.

I'm sure there is something in your life that is important to you to define.

And while someone eating peanut butter might get a little flack for not being "pure paleo," I doubt most people are bothering discussing that.

I see you play the guitar. Will you teach me to play the violin?

Yes. String instruments are the same. It's just math.

Hey, I play guitar, but it's classical, most people just look at me and say, yeah, that was interesting.

YouTube or it never happened. :laugh:

I know. It's getting to the point where I'm going to have to at least try to friend neanderthin.

likitisplit

So no like you I entered when the topic was already de-railed and off track.

Cool. So since I'm not talking to myself, and am actually having a discussion, we can agree that neither of us hijacked this thread and are now just participating in what the thread changed to. So that can stop being used as a way to try to discredit my posts, as it's pretty irrelevant, as I'm not sure that anyone but OP stuck to the OP.

I do believe most MFP threads go off-track at about page two.

(FTR, I don't call myself "IIFYM" either.)

According to my official list of personal MFP rules, after page 4 any thread is a free-for-all

likitisplit

Lol.

The OP had no idea what they started here. Lol

You always have the purists that need boundaries and definitions. The world is black and white. You're eating Paleo or your not. You are a Mexican, or you're not. You can't be Mexican if you're not a citizen of Mexico and your mom is Japanese. Other people, like me that see almost everything in shades of grey where there really are no absolutes, that I understand that you are of Mexican descent, therefore you are Mexican. You also may identify more with that culture than with the Japanese culture from your moms side, so mentally, you just feel like you're Mexican. So, you are.

Just because some adds peanut butter to their diet but otherwise eats Paleo, does not mean they aren't Paleo. It's just ridiculous to draw such silly boundaries on everything. We're talk about food here people. It's not religion, it's goddamn food. Chill out.

Religion might be an extreme example, but I wasn't the first to propose it. I certainly didn't involve ethnicity because that's not a choice.
My point being that if you hold yourself up as an example of something... If you choose to be a leader... You should put your money where your mouth is.

When we have no boundaries, words lose their meanings. And therein lies the problem... We've already seen that with "clean eating"... It means nothing, really, because everyone has a different definition of it.

Lol. Black and white world you live in. Sad.

At a certain point, like at border crossings, you better have the definitions squared alway. In order to have any rational debate, you must first define your terms.

DamePiglet

So no like you I entered when the topic was already de-railed and off track.

Cool. So since I'm not talking to myself, and am actually having a discussion, we can agree that neither of us hijacked this thread and are now just participating in what the thread changed to. So that can stop being used as a way to try to discredit my posts, as it's pretty irrelevant, as I'm not sure that anyone but OP stuck to the OP.

I do believe most MFP threads go off-track at about page two.

(FTR, I don't call myself "IIFYM" either.)

According to my official list of personal MFP rules, after page 4 any thread is a free-for-all

Ohhhhh!!! Cat gifs!!! :drinker:

QuietBloom

No. In fact my TSH levels have been steady for years, with no need for increased medication. There is nothing I restrict from my diet. Immune disorders are tricky because they wax and wane and the reasons for that have remained elusive in most cases.

If I went Paleo and it helped, what would be my response in your opinion? That my thyroid would start producing more hormone? Is that what happened in your case?

How are you T3 and T4 levels? It's my understanding that TSH is wholly unreliable for Hashi's, though I may be incorrect on that. For example, in a round of blood tests a while back, my TSH was totally in the normal range, but both my T3 and T4 were super low.

I believe the idea behind it is that certain things in diet trigger the autoimmune response, so the body attacks your thyroid or thyroid function, you end up initially hypo, your thyroid (to the extent it's still able to do so), kicks into high gear to compensate and you then swing back hyper. If your thyroid is extensively damaged (as it eventually ends up in Hashi's), you may not longer have the ability to even swing hyper anymore -- so just varying levels of hypo/normal or more hypo and less hypo.

So, the idea is that if you can minimize the triggering events, you can keep or maintain more of your normal thyroid function for longer, requiring less medication. Also, I know that there are some endos who believe treating with both T4 and T3 helps Hash's in particular and then there is the debate of synthetic versus natural dessicated.

As for what happened in my case, it's hard to say. I didn't have the diagnosis at the time, so I didn't have a lot the blood tests being monitored. I didn't get the diagnosis until about a year of eating Primal or so. Personally, the big thing I noticed was it helped with fatigue and better sleep (two common hypo symptoms). I had far fewer crushing fatigue episodes -- and those that I had were not as long in duration (were a couple days long versus up to 2-3 weeks). But, it was also found that I have insulin resistance as well, and that may have been contributing to the fatigue.

My endocrinologist at the time was testing all pituitary hormone related levels, of which TSH is one. Your body senses low thyroid hormones and produces thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to bring levels back to normal. I was put on replacement hormone until my TSH levels were reduced to 'normal'. I may have had T3 and T4 levels checked at some time, I don't recall. I have not had the money to test for anything other than TSH in many years, and it has remained steady. No fatigue type symptoms at all.

It is my understanding that once your immune system starts destroying your thyroid, it is not going to come back. You can slow the destruction (perhaps) if your immune system is over reacting due to some dietary factor but that is all theoretical at this point as far as I know. I know that some people also suffer physical symptoms from the thyroid inflammation itself, though I never have.

I think that is the traditional approach by many endos -- waiting until the TSH levels fluctuate to treat and treat based on that. Some are starting to look past that, to T3, T4, antibody levels and clinical symptoms rather live and die by TSH as they're finding more and more Hashi's people with symproms, antibodies and low T4 and T3 levels (but normal-ish TSH). Some of the belief is if they treat earlier and find a away to minimize triggers, they can preserve more of the natural thyroid function longer by minimizing the destruction.

Hmm. From what reading I have done, an ultra-sensitive TSH test is considered the most accurate way to determine thyroid function, since TSH is produced by the pituitary and is not effected by Hashimoto's. If TSH is elevated, there is no doubt that something is going on that shouldn't be, whilst folks' T3 and T4 levels may naturally fluctuate. That is my understanding at any rate.

LiftCore

Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.

I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you

I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.