Paleo vs. Clean eating?
Replies
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Good luck trying to grow san marzano. It's the terroir that makes this product. I grow heirlooms mostly and can a lot, but I have to admit the san marzano's make a damn good passata and I use them exclusively in the Bistro and catering.
I hear ya, I do. No, I couldn't give you a definitive answer for clean, only my meaning. To me healthier is just selecting the lions share of my food that are more nutrient dense than calorie dense, which generally points to more whole foods. Processed well, for example, last night we had fish and chips. The fish was pickerel that we caught ice fishing a month ago to which I suspended in water and froze. I use lard in my deep fryer and cooked up a mess of fish and chips......to me this is minimally processed and natural....yes I used a breading of panko. I grow veg and also get it locally but sometimes I buy canned, for example I really like the san marzano tomatoes from Italy and only come from there. There's a few examples of me eating clean.I personally do not think the 'processing' is a good way to choose what food to consume or not, unless it's a religious thing.
Err, except that I think religion is pretty stupid, so still not then, actually.
And yes, so far I've not had a congruent answer that is consistent.
Can you provide me with one?
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Has anyone claimed there is 'no evidence'? I, for instnace, have said I haven't seen any good evidence. Not the same as 'no evidence'.
Pickerel is delicious! We are lucky that we get to enjoy it several times a year, all fresh caught and froze the way you do. I don't use panko though but rather organic unbleached flour. We had perch a couple of nights ago coated with almond flour. That was tasty! I have heard a lot about the san marzano tomatoes but haven't tried them as we don't buy commercially canned foods. It might be worth finding the seeds
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So I've been reading up on Paleo.. it looks pretty interesting? Do any of you do Paleo? or Eat Clean.. Im having a little bit trouble finding the true definition of Eating Clean.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. does it mean no processed food... as in nothing coming from a box? or is it something else?
I'm hesitant to jump on the band wagon since i have a lot of stuff in my pantry but I'm really fascinated by it. Can anyone of you give me some insight or share your experience how you started or transitioned in to Paleo or Eating Clean
Thank you
Happy
For my part, I try not to make my diet to complicated. I've tried that in the past and it didn't work. But that is me.
If you want to try out Clean or Paleo diet then do it. Try Paleo for a few weeks, see if it's something you can live with and if it doesn't there is no shame in trying something else.
The important part? This is your journey. Find what works for you.0 -
I did the atkins diet for a while, mostly just eating meat and veggies and once i hit my goal i went back to normal eating and just watching the calories and marcos. I am still dropping weight, so really i think either one can work. You just need to do what works for you, try it, if it works, great! If not, then try something less restrictive. 0
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When I was starting out on MFP, I often sought guidance by looking through the profiles and diaries of MFP forum posters to compare and contrast what they are doing and their personal goals with what I am doing and MY personal goals.
I found the information invaluable. For example, I thought I'd NEVER take strength training seriously, but after seeing the differences it's made in people's bodies, I changed my mind.
I've even checked out the profiles and diaries of people who are vegetarian and vegan to see how they get the nutrients they need. I've learned a lot.
Now, Paleo/Primal/Clean folks, this is NOT an attack. It's an observation (and eventually a suggestion...)
You claim that there are all kinds of studies out there that say that the foods I eat are unhealthy choices... that your choices are healthy and science backs that up, but you refuse to post articles that support that claim.
Okay, fine... maybe your profiles will provide some insight into how this method of eating is beneficial...
Very few of you have open diaries. You don't have pictures of yourself (or if you do, it's physically non-descript). Your profile is private.
Meanwhile, throughout the threads, I've seen posts by people numerous others that include links to publications, not to mention that they have photo and diary evidence that supports their claims.
Don't you think that perhaps you would be more encouraging and supportive of people who are considering / might consider your way if you actually provided SOMETHING that gave you some credibility, besides just saying, "this is my experience" in threads like this?
I can't speak for the other members you are referring to, but I can give insight into my choices. Sometimes 'this is my experience' is all that is necessary. We've eaten this way for over 30 years <shrug>. All I did was initially reply on this thread that we ate what would be considered clean and have done so for a number of years. I personally have not told anyone here that their food choices were not healthy. I have stressed a few times that I really don't care what I eat. You actually made assumptions about our lifestyle then went further to put me down by saying if I had to go to school and raise kids as a single parent it would have been different. You started the mud slinging so why on earth would I want you crawling through my diary? Sure shooting you would find one little thing you didn't consider 'clean' or whatever label you give it to use as another attack. No thanks! My diary is closed because I have seen what happens when you make any comment on the forums. It is solely a member's choice whether to have an open diary or not. In my case it is a privacy issue, not that I need to defend that to you. I could care less what other members are eating. Now, if you were to browse mine you would see a large number of homemade dishes which wouldn't help you one bit. As it is, use your imagination.0 -
Interesting. I just assumed they were lean because I can't see the fat.<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>
This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?
This is a serious question.
Organ meats tend to have a lot of fat content. My guess is that's where they got it.0 -
<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>
This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?
This is a serious question.
I am no expert, but I would hazard a guess that when they ate the animal they ate the whole thing. Flesh, sinew, organs (offal), bone marrow.
I don't eat this style to wear as a badge by the way, but I eat primal Blue Print and it is very much recommended to eat as much of the animal as possible (they have a great recipe for bone marrow soup).
That is best guess I'm afraid.
And there is a lot of fat in the organs and marrow? My husband eats some of the organs of deer he kills and they never seem very fatty.
? sorry I really do not know, but I would guess you kill a large animal like the dear (not sure what the equivalent would be) and if they have say - even 10% body fat that's a fair amount of fat. Plus if you eat the whole thing over a short period of time I would assume your liver will convert some of that excess protein you've consumed into body fat to store and call upon later, when you don't have an animal to eat.0 -
So I've been reading up on Paleo.. it looks pretty interesting? Do any of you do Paleo? or Eat Clean.. Im having a little bit trouble finding the true definition of Eating Clean.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. does it mean no processed food... as in nothing coming from a box? or is it something else?
I'm hesitant to jump on the band wagon since i have a lot of stuff in my pantry but I'm really fascinated by it. Can anyone of you give me some insight or share your experience how you started or transitioned in to Paleo or Eating Clean
Thank you
Happy
For my part, I try not to make my diet to complicated. I've tried that in the past and it didn't work. But that is me.
If you want to try out Clean or Paleo diet then do it. Try Paleo for a few weeks, see if it's something you can live with and if it doesn't there is no shame in trying something else.
The important part? This is your journey. Find what works for you.0 -
I did the atkins diet for a while, mostly just eating meat and veggies and once i hit my goal i went back to normal eating and just watching the calories and marcos. I am still dropping weight, so really i think either one can work. You just need to do what works for you, try it, if it works, great! If not, then try something less restrictive.
^^^^^ This - what's so hard to comprehend!
Just do what works for YOU0 -
"Modern day diseases" ? Would that be the ones that are a lot more seen now because our lifestyles mean we live a lot longer on average?
No, they would be the ones that have only occurred since we've started eating too much processed food full of additives, preservatives and junk food such as diabetes, heart disease, non-alcoholic cirrosis of the liver, bowel cancer and the like some of which are occurring in children and teenages and people under 40 so not because we are living longer as children have never had these diseases 50 or more years ago.
Before the 1930's or so, these diseases were so rare they didn't even have names, and there were plenty of old people around then too.
Really instead of hearsay and analogous BS perhaps you could provide a peer reviewed scientific study that shows an increase in all these diseases linked to diet
I'm betting you can't
OP it sounds like what you've been doing works for you, If you feel healthy and aren't tired run down then stick with it. If you want to eat less processed foods I won't argue it (keeping to the caloric goals that work is the important part) In fact I rarely eat anything heavily processed myself. But I think diets like Paleo are pretty much BS (you couldn't eat the diet if you wanted to because we have no real data on what they ate , and all the plants and animals will have undergone evolution as we have. Why we'd want to eat like ancestors with a third of our lifespan is another thing...0 -
why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!
We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.
I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.
I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!
You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.
No, there is not. Lectins are in many non-legume foods. Mushrooms, asparagus, radishes, zucchini, cherries, coffee beans, strawberries, walnuts, sunflower seeds ... the list is quite long. It's pretty much impossible to avoid lectins in food.
It's a completely ridiculous claim. Beans are not unhealthy food.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it ridiculous. And, yes, lechtins are in many things, and that's one of the reasons some suggest avoiding the foods that have so many of them (like legumes).0 -
You have certainly given the impression you believe that is the case for 'a number of food additives and residues', 'food dyes'. GMO, presesrervatives, BPA, pink slime and so on.. I personally have not told anyone here that their food choices were not healthy.
I'd still like to hear what damage you believe is done by "pink slime"?
Do you understand what it is? Do you eat cheese?If you are referring to our lifestyle, our food choices are healthier because they are free of a number of food additives and residues that are carcinogenic or detrimental to health in one way or another. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of food dyes to the point that some are not even allowed Europe forcing the American food manufacturer to remove them if they want to sell that product there. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of GMO on the gastro-intestinal tract. Food preservatives can cause a huge problem and there is pressure on companies for their removal. There is all kinds of information on the harmful side effects of BPA found in the lining of commercially canned foods. Then there is pink slime, meat glue and a whole range of questionable food additives that are only removed from our foods after the damage has been done. Certain food additives are actually addictive and there is scientific studies that prove that. Whether these harmful chemicals have a short half-life or not, they are still in your body and have the potential to do harm as they pass through your body. If your food is making you sick, or has the potential to cause physical harm at some level, then it isn't really healthy, is it? If you avoid exposure to these harmful chemicals by choosing foods free of them, then by default the food itself is a healthier choice.
I've NEVER had a problem with an open diary. Perhaps because I don't suggest that pink slime will have "done damage", so wouldn't be seen as hypocritical to have have eaten it myself.0 -
When I was starting out on MFP, I often sought guidance by looking through the profiles and diaries of MFP forum posters to compare and contrast what they are doing and their personal goals with what I am doing and MY personal goals.
I found the information invaluable. For example, I thought I'd NEVER take strength training seriously, but after seeing the differences it's made in people's bodies, I changed my mind.
I've even checked out the profiles and diaries of people who are vegetarian and vegan to see how they get the nutrients they need. I've learned a lot.
Now, Paleo/Primal/Clean folks, this is NOT an attack. It's an observation (and eventually a suggestion...)
You claim that there are all kinds of studies out there that say that the foods I eat are unhealthy choices... that your choices are healthy and science backs that up, but you refuse to post articles that support that claim.
Okay, fine... maybe your profiles will provide some insight into how this method of eating is beneficial...
Very few of you have open diaries. You don't have pictures of yourself (or if you do, it's physically non-descript). Your profile is private.
Meanwhile, throughout the threads, I've seen posts by people numerous others that include links to publications, not to mention that they have photo and diary evidence that supports their claims.
Don't you think that perhaps you would be more encouraging and supportive of people who are considering / might consider your way if you actually provided SOMETHING that gave you some credibility, besides just saying, "this is my experience" in threads like this?
I think that's a fine way to go, but it's a completely personal choice. How I've seen people treat others on this site, I personally would never expose myself in such a personal way because there are far too many posters I've encountered who are nasty, cruel, disrespectful and belittling.
I personally share my experience because I find that helpful. I never looked into someone's profile or pictures as proof of the idea they're positing. For me, it was only a starting point and then from there, I conducted more research -- read books, articles, links if someone provided them, searched on my own. I never found someone's personal success story nearly as persuasive as the other literature out there, especially as I'm interested in the biomechanics of the various theories. I enjoy the success stories for completely different reasons, but not as a basis in my personal investigation.0 -
Obviously there is evidence. Do you not know how to do the research yourself? And, for the record you were the one to jump all over me because of our eating/lifestyle. What you agenda is, is of no concern to me. Eat clean, eat dirty, eat upside down. I don't care. As far as food additives, why don't you research on some of those found in foods like sodium benzoate or yellow dye #5 or BPA. All have direct and negative effects on health. Here's another hint for you to research; the effects of excess sodium and sugar on the human body, something most processed foods are high in. Oh, and HFCS is a real winner. You can even research the effects of antibiotics in meat and their effect on the human body or just take your chances and hope you don't actually need to use antibiotics at some point. I honestly don't care if you want to eat these ingredients. The list goes on and on. Be my guest. I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position.
You appear to have an axe to grind which I hear doesn't burn all that many calories but does raise your cortisol levels
Spoken like a true ignorant zealot
Wow - your response was typed with angry fingers. Lol
But just to get this straight - anyone who doesn't agree with you and asks you to look up your own research is an ignorant zealot (I'm sure there's some logic there somewhere)!
Logic? Like this logic?
" I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position. "
What does he do with the wealth of scientific research that disagrees with his position? How does he factor in what the bulk of literature says on a given subject? If it disagrees with his position, just cherry picks ones that do agree?
Again, misinformation! I am a 'she' not a 'he' Perhaps I should do a bit of research to confirm that though. I am not cherry picking either. Go ahead, eat what you want. As I responded to others who have a huge problem with anyone who eats a bit different, I really don't care. I saw the same type of thing when vegetarianism first came into mainstream. Those who believe their way of eating is healthier are going to carry on regardless of what the naysayers say. I will say your insecurities are showing though. So lets flip this. You show me the studies that say these food additives are perfectly fine. They are not causing any cellular damage in the body and they are not have any and I do mean any negative health effects. You show me the studies that say 'eating clean' is an unhealthy way of eating. The shoe is on your foot...
Don't worry about it. Even if you give them the resources, they'll say 'Oh, I don't want to read that book...please send me the cites that the book provides..."
I hate to break it to you but books like the ones you suggest are usually written by people to make money. It's all about the money, and a hypothesis with cherry picked data to support that hypothesis. I prefer to obtain my nutritional information from a range of sources, mainly journal articles and textbooks because it provides balance.
Wait, people write books to make money? You don't say!
Do you think text books and journals are charities? Simply because they make money at it doesn't negate the value of the content in the book.
Reject the book for the content, not because someone wants to get paid for doing the work of writing. If this is your only complaint, this is completely asinine.
As for cherry picking data, of course, that's the basis of books. They put forth a hypothesis and then select data that supports it. That is the basis of persuasive writing.
Persuasive Writing is not Science, Science is the reality of hard data that can be reproduced and peer reviewed
Persuasive Writing is Literature, Political Science, History etc.0 -
As I said previously I followed the paleo diet for about 4 months to try to treat my fibromyalgia. I feel this worked my neck pain disappeared, I had more energy, my skin was clear, and the chronic constipation I had suffered my entire life disappeared. I thought I would eat that way forever but I found myself getting obsessed with macros and then worrying about the amount of sugar in fruit. I almost started hyperventilating in a pub when my husband asked for lime and soda instead of soda, really panicked about sugar in a dash of lime. I realised it was time to stop or I was going to end up with an eating disorder. I also really missed breakfast cereal I had a problem eating curry and soup for breakfast it didn't feel normal. I believe in the principles of paleo but for now I am trying eating clean and closing monitoring my fibro symptoms. I also found myself being dishonest or omitting things from my diary because they were not paleo or even fruit because it was high sugar and I was worried I would be judged. I don't want to hide my diary I would rather be honest and say I eat clean with the odd glass if wine etc. I workout hard I don't have an issue with it.0
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If you have a Kindle Reader, you can download a FREE Paleo Diet cookbook , "40 Top Paleo Recipes - Quick and Easy Paleo Diet Recipes For Weight Loss & Optimum Health (Paleolithic Diet Cookbook)". No mysteries, just healthy eating using natural (not organic) foods. You learn to use a variety of spices to keep foods interesting. As a diabetic, I had to discover many ways to cook and not get bored. Good luck!0
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As I said previously I followed the paleo diet for about 4 months to try to treat my fibromyalgia. I feel this worked my neck pain disappeared, I had more energy, my skin was clear, and the chronic constipation I had suffered my entire life disappeared. I thought I would eat that way forever but I found myself getting obsessed with macros and then worrying about the amount of sugar in fruit. I almost started hyperventilating in a pub when my husband asked for lime and soda instead of soda, really panicked about sugar in a dash of lime. I realised it was time to stop or I was going to end up with an eating disorder. I also really missed breakfast cereal I had a problem eating curry and soup for breakfast it didn't feel normal. I believe in the principles of paleo but for now I am trying eating clean and closing monitoring my fibro symptoms. I also found myself being dishonest or omitting things from my diary because they were not paleo or even fruit because it was high sugar and I was worried I would be judged. I don't want to hide my diary I would rather be honest and say I eat clean with the odd glass if wine etc. I workout hard I don't have an issue with it.
Good for you. Have you now found a common ground that works for you?
I think the important take home from your post is you've got to do a diet that does not feel like too much of a sacrifice.
It is a very interesting comment you make about becoming obsessed - I have heard this from someone else on the forum.
Well done for sticking it for 4 months though and hopefully it has been a catalyst for a new healthier (healthier for YOU that is) diet. 0 -
Persuasive Writing is not Science, Science is the reality of hard data that can be reproduced and peer reviewed
Persuasive Writing is Literature, Political Science, History etc.
Not totally true. There is persuasive writing in science too. And the books I suggested have tons of peer-reviewed studies cited in them.
Most peer-reviewed studies start out with a hypothesis and then an experiment to test that hypothesis. And then the author of the study draws certain conclusions from the experiment. Depending on the outcome, it may get published. Then, others may debate the experiment itself or the conclusions drawn by the author.0 -
You have certainly given the impression you believe that is the case for 'a number of food additives and residues', 'food dyes'. GMO, presesrervatives, BPA, pink slime and so on.. I personally have not told anyone here that their food choices were not healthy.
I'd still like to hear what damage you believe is done by "pink slime"?
Do you understand what it is? Do you eat cheese?If you are referring to our lifestyle, our food choices are healthier because they are free of a number of food additives and residues that are carcinogenic or detrimental to health in one way or another. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of food dyes to the point that some are not even allowed Europe forcing the American food manufacturer to remove them if they want to sell that product there. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of GMO on the gastro-intestinal tract. Food preservatives can cause a huge problem and there is pressure on companies for their removal. There is all kinds of information on the harmful side effects of BPA found in the lining of commercially canned foods. Then there is pink slime, meat glue and a whole range of questionable food additives that are only removed from our foods after the damage has been done. Certain food additives are actually addictive and there is scientific studies that prove that. Whether these harmful chemicals have a short half-life or not, they are still in your body and have the potential to do harm as they pass through your body. If your food is making you sick, or has the potential to cause physical harm at some level, then it isn't really healthy, is it? If you avoid exposure to these harmful chemicals by choosing foods free of them, then by default the food itself is a healthier choice.
I've NEVER had a problem with an open diary. Perhaps because I don't suggest that pink slime will have "done damage", so wouldn't be seen as hypocritical to have have eaten it myself.
Saying our food choices are healthier is in no way saying what others are eating is not healthy. I have no idea nor do I care what they are eating. I care about what we are eating and I know our food choices are healthier. There is nothing you can say that will convince me that an organic tomato is not as healthy as a pesticide laden tomato or commercially canned tomatoes with high salt and BPA leaching from the liner is healthier than home canned tomatoes with no salt added and no BPA. There is nothing you can say that will convince me to consume sodium benzoate that breaks down into benzene (a known carcinogen) under heat and/or acidic conditions. You do realizing the foods that sodium benzoate is used in are heat treated during processing? There you go, eat up and enjoy that healthy dose of benzene.
I don't know who's quote about the diary. Yes I know what pink slim is and no you would not find foods with it in my food diary. There is nothing hypocritical about doing what you say you are doing.
Oh and to add a bit more to the discussion, I recently came across an article that certain food additives can actually cause you to gain weight. I am still researching that one but the research shows this to be the case, it is one more reason to avoid those that do. These food additives are no where near as benign as you think. I personally do not want to be a human guinea pig but that is my choice. You as a presumed autonomous being are free to make your own choice.0 -
why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!
We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.
I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.
I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!
You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.
No, there is not. Lectins are in many non-legume foods. Mushrooms, asparagus, radishes, zucchini, cherries, coffee beans, strawberries, walnuts, sunflower seeds ... the list is quite long. It's pretty much impossible to avoid lectins in food.
It's a completely ridiculous claim. Beans are not unhealthy food.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it ridiculous. And, yes, lechtins are in many things, and that's one of the reasons some suggest avoiding the foods that have so many of them (like legumes).
Legumes are not unhealthy. Until someone can show me any evidence that they are. Not pick out one tiny element in them and use that to declare the food unhealth. Show me evidence that legumes are harmful.
Until that day, I call the paleo nonsense LIES. Beans are not unhealthy. Prove me wrong.0 -
why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!
We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.
I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.
I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!
You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.
No, there is not. Lectins are in many non-legume foods. Mushrooms, asparagus, radishes, zucchini, cherries, coffee beans, strawberries, walnuts, sunflower seeds ... the list is quite long. It's pretty much impossible to avoid lectins in food.
It's a completely ridiculous claim. Beans are not unhealthy food.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it ridiculous. And, yes, lechtins are in many things, and that's one of the reasons some suggest avoiding the foods that have so many of them (like legumes).
Legumes are not unhealthy. Until someone can show me any evidence that they are. Not pick out one tiny element in them and use that to declare the food unhealth. Show me evidence that legumes are harmful.
Until that day, I call the paleo nonsense LIES. Beans are not unhealthy. Prove me wrong.
I've given you the reasoning behind it. You disagree. That's fine; you're free to disagree.
I'm not here to prove you or anyone else wrong. Just to share information. Choose to adopt or disregard. Reasonable people can disagree.0 -
Obviously there is evidence. Do you not know how to do the research yourself? And, for the record you were the one to jump all over me because of our eating/lifestyle. What you agenda is, is of no concern to me. Eat clean, eat dirty, eat upside down. I don't care. As far as food additives, why don't you research on some of those found in foods like sodium benzoate or yellow dye #5 or BPA. All have direct and negative effects on health. Here's another hint for you to research; the effects of excess sodium and sugar on the human body, something most processed foods are high in. Oh, and HFCS is a real winner. You can even research the effects of antibiotics in meat and their effect on the human body or just take your chances and hope you don't actually need to use antibiotics at some point. I honestly don't care if you want to eat these ingredients. The list goes on and on. Be my guest. I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position.
You appear to have an axe to grind which I hear doesn't burn all that many calories but does raise your cortisol levels
Spoken like a true ignorant zealot
Wow - your response was typed with angry fingers. Lol
But just to get this straight - anyone who doesn't agree with you and asks you to look up your own research is an ignorant zealot (I'm sure there's some logic there somewhere)!
Logic? Like this logic?
" I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position. "
What does he do with the wealth of scientific research that disagrees with his position? How does he factor in what the bulk of literature says on a given subject? If it disagrees with his position, just cherry picks ones that do agree?
Again, misinformation! I am a 'she' not a 'he' Perhaps I should do a bit of research to confirm that though. I am not cherry picking either. Go ahead, eat what you want. As I responded to others who have a huge problem with anyone who eats a bit different, I really don't care. I saw the same type of thing when vegetarianism first came into mainstream. Those who believe their way of eating is healthier are going to carry on regardless of what the naysayers say. I will say your insecurities are showing though. So lets flip this. You show me the studies that say these food additives are perfectly fine. They are not causing any cellular damage in the body and they are not have any and I do mean any negative health effects. You show me the studies that say 'eating clean' is an unhealthy way of eating. The shoe is on your foot...
Don't worry about it. Even if you give them the resources, they'll say 'Oh, I don't want to read that book...please send me the cites that the book provides..."
I hate to break it to you but books like the ones you suggest are usually written by people to make money. It's all about the money, and a hypothesis with cherry picked data to support that hypothesis. I prefer to obtain my nutritional information from a range of sources, mainly journal articles and textbooks because it provides balance.
Wait, people write books to make money? You don't say!
Do you think text books and journals are charities? Simply because they make money at it doesn't negate the value of the content in the book.
Reject the book for the content, not because someone wants to get paid for doing the work of writing. If this is your only complaint, this is completely asinine.
As for cherry picking data, of course, that's the basis of books. They put forth a hypothesis and then select data that supports it. That is the basis of persuasive writing.
Persuasive Writing is not Science, Science is the reality of hard data that can be reproduced and peer reviewed
Persuasive Writing is Literature, Political Science, History etc.
Maybe rather than chucking studies back and forth as I am sure there must be a ying study for every yang study and you will subconsciously (no matter how open minded you claim to be) will sway the direction of your ingrained believe - we should be focusing on our own study of one.
What works for me - works for me. What works for you - works for you. No matter how many studies you do you may never get proof that what works for you - works for me and vice versa.
So rather than everyone saying what doesn't work or isn't necessary - should understand that it only doesn't work or isn't necessary for them.
Unless they have never actually tried what they are arguing about and therefore maybe their view could be considered worthless (unless they have qualifications - and I don't mean a degree from the university of shirtless).
Maybe as a novel idea we should give accounts of what WE tried and the results WE found.
Anyway we can put all the stock into the studies we wave at each other with authority - but are they correct?
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.00201240 -
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Here's a food additive likely to cause you to gain weight...
Organic, free range... lard!
High calorie density = more likely to eat more calories = weight gain!
Sorry, the last quote was me and wasn't meant to be quoted.
So please do tell me what damage eating foods with 'pink slime' will do me?
Do you eat cheese?
And still - if you are saying your choices are healthier, will you agree you are at least saying others are "not as healthy"?
Sodium benzoate is found in some fruits too, both in the fruits and in products you may buy, levels are below those considered dangerous. Do you avoid the fruits with it in?0 -
Oh I don't know. So far there has been no butthurt or rage quitting. That's a good thing, right?0 -
Then
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When I was starting out on MFP, I often sought guidance by looking through the profiles and diaries of MFP forum posters to compare and contrast what they are doing and their personal goals with what I am doing and MY personal goals.
I found the information invaluable. For example, I thought I'd NEVER take strength training seriously, but after seeing the differences it's made in people's bodies, I changed my mind.
I've even checked out the profiles and diaries of people who are vegetarian and vegan to see how they get the nutrients they need. I've learned a lot.
Now, Paleo/Primal/Clean folks, this is NOT an attack. It's an observation (and eventually a suggestion...)
You claim that there are all kinds of studies out there that say that the foods I eat are unhealthy choices... that your choices are healthy and science backs that up, but you refuse to post articles that support that claim.
Okay, fine... maybe your profiles will provide some insight into how this method of eating is beneficial...
Very few of you have open diaries. You don't have pictures of yourself (or if you do, it's physically non-descript). Your profile is private.
Meanwhile, throughout the threads, I've seen posts by people numerous others that include links to publications, not to mention that they have photo and diary evidence that supports their claims.
Don't you think that perhaps you would be more encouraging and supportive of people who are considering / might consider your way if you actually provided SOMETHING that gave you some credibility, besides just saying, "this is my experience" in threads like this?
I can't speak for the other members you are referring to, but I can give insight into my choices. Sometimes 'this is my experience' is all that is necessary. We've eaten this way for over 30 years <shrug>. All I did was initially reply on this thread that we ate what would be considered clean and have done so for a number of years. I personally have not told anyone here that their food choices were not healthy. I have stressed a few times that I really don't care what I eat. You actually made assumptions about our lifestyle then went further to put me down by saying if I had to go to school and raise kids as a single parent it would have been different. You started the mud slinging so why on earth would I want you crawling through my diary? Sure shooting you would find one little thing you didn't consider 'clean' or whatever label you give it to use as another attack. No thanks! My diary is closed because I have seen what happens when you make any comment on the forums. It is solely a member's choice whether to have an open diary or not. In my case it is a privacy issue, not that I need to defend that to you. I could care less what other members are eating. Now, if you were to browse mine you would see a large number of homemade dishes which wouldn't help you one bit. As it is, use your imagination.
Okay... you are taking things waaaay too personally and out of context.
First of all, I actually said that your commitment and choices are commendable. I agreed with you about calories. I simply pointed out that you obviously have resource advantages that others do not have... a single mother, for example.
How is any of that slinging mud in the least??? Please explain that to me... I'm interested in knowing!
As for "healthy" vs. "unhealthy"... You said (not in response to me):If you are referring to our lifestyle, our food choices are healthier because they are free of a number of food additives and residues that are carcinogenic or detrimental to health in one way or another. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of food dyes to the point that some are not even allowed Europe forcing the American food manufacturer to remove them if they want to sell that product there. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of GMO on the gastro-intestinal tract. Food preservatives can cause a huge problem and there is pressure on companies for their removal. There is all kinds of information on the harmful side effects of BPA found in the lining of commercially canned foods. Then there is pink slime, meat glue and a whole range of questionable food additives that are only removed from our foods after the damage has been done. Certain food additives are actually addictive and there is scientific studies that prove that. Whether these harmful chemicals have a short half-life or not, they are still in your body and have the potential to do harm as they pass through your body. If your food is making you sick, or has the potential to cause physical harm at some level, then it isn't really healthy, is it? If you avoid exposure to these harmful chemicals by choosing foods free of them, then by default the food itself is a healthier choice.
Hormone free with respect to animals refers to the addition of growth hormone to force the animal to maturity faster. It's a cost savings measure to boost profits. There is a lot of scientific research on how growth hormones and antibiotics in meats and milk are affecting especially children. All you have to do is go directly to the peer reviewed scientific journals to find this information.
Even my post about suggesting a better way to set an example wasn't mudslinging or ugly. You took that personally and out of context, too.
I think you need to try that "read the post in a monotone" method or something. 'Cause... day-um.0 -
(unless they have qualifications - and I don't mean a degree from the university of shirtless).
Hilarious!! :laugh:0 -
Persuasive Writing is not Science, Science is the reality of hard data that can be reproduced and peer reviewed
Persuasive Writing is Literature, Political Science, History etc.
Not totally true. There is persuasive writing in science too. And the books I suggested have tons of peer-reviewed studies cited in them.
Most peer-reviewed studies start out with a hypothesis and then an experiment to test that hypothesis. And then the author of the study draws certain conclusions from the experiment. Depending on the outcome, it may get published. Then, others may debate the experiment itself or the conclusions drawn by the author.
This is mostly right.
Actually, the scientists establishes the topic (could be a hypothesis, could be just a question, as in, "What influence does river discharge have on particulate organic carbon age structure in a particular river basin?")
Run experiment, study data, draw conclusion... (often ends in more questions for further study)
BEFORE the paper is available for publication, it is reviewed by the author's peers (or authors' peers, whatever the case may be).
Certainly, there may be more scrutiny and/ or debate POST publication, but the PRE-publication is generally pretty thorough.
(If y'all think forum posters are sticklers, you DON'T EVER want to submit a journal article.)
The outcome doesn't determine whether or not the article is published. The subject matter and whether it "cuts the mustard" does.0 -
So I've been reading up on Paleo.. it looks pretty interesting? Do any of you do Paleo? or Eat Clean.. Im having a little bit trouble finding the true definition of Eating Clean.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. does it mean no processed food... as in nothing coming from a box? or is it something else?
I'm hesitant to jump on the band wagon since i have a lot of stuff in my pantry but I'm really fascinated by it. Can anyone of you give me some insight or share your experience how you started or transitioned in to Paleo or Eating Clean
Thank you
Happy
I've been paleo/primal/perfect health diet for about a year now and I'm very happy with it. I've maintained my weight/body comp with ZERO calorie counting. I feel much better especially since following supplement guidelines in PHD.0 -
(unless they have qualifications - and I don't mean a degree from the university of shirtless).
Hilarious!! :laugh:
What about great punctuation?0
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