Paleo vs. Clean eating?

Charlottesometimes23

why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!

We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.

I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.

I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!

You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.

Can you show me the reasonable basis for avoidance of lectins because there is some pretty good evidence of several benefits of dietary plant lectins.

Anti-tumour properties http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24033443 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21329660

Enhanced immune response http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8082415

Antiviral and antifungal activity (from kidney bean lectin) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11732688

FlaxMilk

Do you tend to go around policing other people's religions and politics? Do you go on political boards and tell someone that they're not Libertarian enough, or because they disagree with one tenet of the Republican party, that they can't really call themselves Republicans? What about Jews, Catholics, Muslims, etc.?

To be fair, this isn't a Paleo forum. This is a Paleo thread, open to anyone. That's why MFP has groups. Any special interest group should expect public notice when having a public discussion. You don't get to walk into the Student Center at your University, post a sign advertising "Religion Political Meeting in the middle of the square" and expect it to be all supporters. You can offer a private meeting, in a private venue, and ask people to leave that clearly shouldn't be there. I definitely relate to not wanting to debate my diet or lifestyle. I love the groups I belong to here that focus on those, and if I wander into a vegan thread in the main forum, I do so with eyes wide open. When you post on a general forum, questions and challenges can be expected. I have little interest in defending the vegan diet, so my preferred place to post is again the groups. I will often go to veg threads and let them know about the groups because the main forums do invite really diverse opinions, and as you know, sometimes that's not what you're looking for. That's ok. We all make those choices in some area of our lives. Keeping an open-mind is one thing, constantly explaining and defending yourself is another.

MFP doesn't allow religious threads in the main forums, but I am confident that if someone came on stating that they follow Religion X's dietary practices 80% of the time, others would argue that that person does not actually follow the religion's guidelines in that area. (It's true that you'd be lucky to find someone who truly does adhere to all of a religion's practices 100% of the time. The idea that people do not is the basis for some major religions. But it's not a directive to "Sin 20% of the time." *I don't think that eating non-Paleo is sinning. It's recognized as a deviation from the teachings, from the beliefs.)

Semantics matter a great deal. Words have meaning, what people do and call what they do has meaning. The idea that the names we give to ideas is insignificant is as confusing to me as non-Paleo's criticizing the Paleo diet is to you. (It's actually what draws me to this topic, the resistance to examining what Paleo is in practice. It's not that it's Paleo, it's the idea that semantics are unimportant that gets my interest.) The most effective arguments on this point from the Paleo side for me has been explaining that the 80/20 is an accepted part of the diet/belief system/lifestyle structure and why. (A debate between 80/20 Paleo and Purist Paleos is a debate I would watch with interest.)

For this reason: a Paleo diet gave me Type II Diabetes. (LIes, all lies.) If I were to make this claim, my guess is the semantics would matter a great deal to Paleo dieters. You would likely want to know details. Was I Paleo "enough?" You'd be right to want to know. But you can't have it only one way. It doesn't work that way for pretty much anything I can think of in life. (I'm sure someone can think of something.)

To go back to religion, if a religion that emphasizes negatives of the gay lifestyle met openly and talked about having gay relationships only 20% of the time, yes, those people would get quite a lot of feedback, particularly from those who do not share their beliefs, for reasons that don't have to be explained.

jmv7117

For the debate of restriction vs. no restriction, I personally find that the decision turns on what the benefits you receive from the restriction -- whether that result makes it worth it to you. If you can achieve the same goal in a different manner, you may opt to ditch the restriction. But if the restriction gives you what you want, you often will stick with it due to that positive feedback loop.

For example, when I went Paleo/Primal, I was shocked by how much better I felt. Just shocked. So, it was easy for me to keep eating that way because I just felt so much better than I did before -- my whole concept of "normal" for me shifted dramatically. And when I go back to eating grains, I go back to feeling poorly. So, that's an easy restriction for me to adopt into a lifestyle.

I now know I have an underlying condition that probably contributed to that or was the sole cause as I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis -- an autoimmune thyroid disorder. Research isn't definitive, but some thyroid specialists believe that gluten or other items in grains set it off -- just as it is suspected to do for other autoimmune disorders like Celiac, certain rheumatoid arthritis, etc.

Are there other things I avoid that maybe I don't need to avoid? Maybe. I started to add back in dairy and found I had no problems with it, so that's when I shifted from stricter Paleo to the more permissive Primal. I don't generally eat legumes, but they aren't generally things I miss. The only exception is peanut butter. But I like almonds, cashews and macadamia nuts just as much if not more, so the substitution is an easy on for me.

I had a similar experience when I started to cut back the carbs, and then later learned I was insulin resistant. And a low carb diet is specifically recommended for that disorder. Again, the diagnosis came long after the diet change (and, man, do I wish I'd known about these issues 10+ years ago -- would have saved me a LOT of grief).

So, my guess for a lot of people that love Paleo/Primal, keto, low carb, etc. lifestyles it's because there is a real reason they react so much better to those diets -- some reasons that they know about, some that they don't and some that they may never know about (i.e. disorders/sensitivities that are too mild for a formal diagnosis or whose symptoms largely clear up with the different diet). After all, I was told for YEARS everything was fine by my doctors. My fiance feels similarly. He doesn't have any issues that we know of but he says he just feels a ton better eating Primally, especially without the grains. He doesn't know what it is specifically that does it -- but the combo works great for him and he saw increases in his sports performance which was the big deal (he comes from some serious genetic freaks in that department).

Others without any sensitivities or underlying conditions try the diets and go "what's the big deal?" because they feel the same on them as they did on their previous diet. So, to those people that have the luck to be able to tolerate different diets rather well, the restriction seems silly, faulty or just plain not worth it.

But, at least for me, I never would have realized that a change in my diet could lead to feeling SO SO much better. And, it is what ultimately pushed me to push my doctors on figuring out what was up with me as for the previous 6-8 years, they told me everything was "fine" when it really wasn't and I'm finally getting the treatment that is needed and on the best diet for my situation. I think you'll find a lot of similar stories on Paleo/Primal websites -- people just feeling much better or having previous issues just clear up or get remarkably better, and they never really know why necessarily.

Here's the thing, Lindsey: you have health issues that are alleviated when you eat this way. It's certainly a good choice for you. I will always think the name "paleo" or "primal" is dumb because its not an accurate name. I describe your diet as "beneficial for Lindsey (or "insert name here") because that's what it REALLY is.

However, OP is intrigued at the thought of different eating styles, yet she doesn't actually have any dietary / health issues ( at least none she disclosed). Most of us are actually saying the same thing you did: it's probably not worth it for her.
In her case, it probably won't be sustainable... It will end up just being a "fad diet". And there's where the discord enters... No one really wants people to suffer through fad diets. Again, even though its not a fad for you, other people wear it like a trendy accessory.

In fairness though, some dietary/health issues are not revealed or accented until a dietary change is made especially those with subtle, could fit into any category symptoms like irritability, moodiness and a whole range of gastro-intestinal symptoms. The simple removal of a food additive by avoiding processed foods may alleviate the symptoms without realizing that the root of the problem was that food additive in the first place. Re-introducing that food will cause those symptoms to return. This is the whole basis of elimination diets used to pin point problematic foods. The OP did not say because she may not be aware a particular food or food additive is causing her problems. That aside, a person should be encouraged and supported anytime he or she is moving towards a healthier diet. That being said, unless OP logs the food accurately during her weight loss period, healthier food may not make any difference in losing weight although it may help her feel better.

geebusuk

On the religion/polotics thing -
I have no problem going around questioning either of those and asking for proof/explanations.
So yes, from that you can work out I do think religion is a little stupid. Possibly why I'm quite happy to question the basis behind fad diets too, as often they seem to be closer to religion than scientific based process.
Sadly, all too often the same can be said of politics - with myth and tradition trumping facts.

jmv7117

It's just a fad, it seems most people would rather brag about themselves being Paleo or "clean eaters" than anything. I guess they think it's a status symbol to uneducated unfit people but the rest of us just think they are pretentious and wasting their time.

Calorie deficit and get all of your nutrients and you will be healthy and lose weight! You could even eat McDonald's!!!!! O.o

I.C.E. Cream Official Tester
IKEA Professional Put Together-er
Kickboxing Class Attender
Been in fitness for about 2 years and have studied kinesiology, nutrition and Dinosaurs

Ummm... ouch? I don't brag about eating paleo, and I've never told anyone else that they were wrong for not eating the way I do. As I've said before, Paleo makes me feel great and is the easiest lifestyle for me to maintain, but it's not for everyone. Rather, I find people who insist that Paleos follow a "fad diet" are rather more pretentious. I plan to eat this way for life, it's by no means a fad or a gimmick for me.

Perhaps it is a lack of understanding. I can remember eons ago when vegetarianism was considered a fad diet only hippies and back to the land folk did. We have always eaten what is now fadishly referred to a 'clean' and quite frankly I never even thought about it until it was thrown in my face by an acquaintance commenting on my new fitness journey, not that it was any of her business. She said 'of course you will lose weight since you already eat clean'. Aside of the fact she uses every excuse under the moon why she can't lose weight, I saw no reason to correct her. All these fad terms are just that. As far as bragging about being Paleo, our friends' kid who is Paleo is very much in your face about it as if her and her husband are going to save the world by preaching Paleo in your face. You can't talk to them without it coming up with the underlying premise that they are superior beings for eating Paleo! They are young so eventually the novelty of pushing their eating style on others will wear off.

jmv7117

Paleo is basically going back to how your ancestors lived, there we're not chocolate bars on store shelves, no Mr Noodles, no Frozen Lasanga.... i have been living Paleo for a month - I chose Paleo because of poor health, lack of energy, no desire to do anything, and my dr couldnt find anything wrong with me.
So, now i am full of energy, i can think straight again, i have lost inches, and am WAY easier to get a long with.
I dont eat anything processed, this includes, BREAD!.
If i want a chocolate treat, i mix some Organic Powedered unsweaten Cocoa, with some honey, and dip some dates in it, or Orange slices or whatever.. NOT COOKIES
I do eat Dairy, so, some would banish me from the Paleo Group.... Greek - 0 Fat - Yogurt... And i put half n half in my coffee.
And yes, i still drink coffee.
For the most part my diet consists of , Fresh washed fruits and vegetables, 100 Meat products, no Frozen pumped full of chemical chicken breasts.
to Sum it up, read the label, if it contains any form of sugar, and any ingredients that are not naturally part of the product, dont eat it!
Email me if you would like more tips, i am going on 6 weeks, and LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

We eat bread - wholesome, homemade fresh from the oven using basic organic ingredients. It's awesome! Sugar, in and of itself, is not evil. I personally don't like white sugar for a number of reasons so choose to use raw sugar, honey, maple syrup or molasses. If you are not consuming foods with any form of sugar, what are you eating? Even vegetables have sugar in them

jmv7117

I mention a McDonald's MEAL (breakfast in my statement) and then you flip it asking about just the burger! Which obviously is how everyone had the McDonald's - oh just the burger thanks hold the bun, crappy salad, sort of sauce stuff - no fries and left the coke!

Well, nice that you finally see, but it'd have been nicer if you'd have taken the time to READ the first post where I made it clear it was the meat, then the many after.
The reason I was seperating it out because it's easiest to compare like for like.
Otherwise we should probably be comparing one of their salads with an organge juice and some fruit.

I don't know.

Well, it would seem I know more than you now, as I took the time to read a good many articles about it until I found ones that had useful facts, despite it not being something of great interest to me.

As you don't know about the meat, did you really expect (from your earlier posts) that I would be confused about whether a selection of steamed vegetables had more useful micronutrients than a bread roll, sauce with a very small bit of salad?

Anyway, now we've cleared that up cheers, how about the final bit....

If you have already had enough micronutrients of that kind, do you think that having more will be beneficial?

nd most neglect to mention the fact that modern farm animals are the result of selective breeding and have different macros to the wild animal species they're descended from.

Indeed, the vast majority of foods we eat humans have used advanced (compared to 'nature') techniques to modify their genetic make up to suit our needs.
You could call this process, oh I don't know, Genetic.... modification?


Oh and in response to other posts - yes, I eat clean-vegan-paelo 66% of the time. The other 33% I eat real food.

As it goes, I DO actually go for 'whole foods' in that 33%.
Ok, the apple pie let me down today*
But I had frozen yoghurt - WHOLE pot
Ham - WHOLE pack.
Chicken Breast - TWO WHOLE breasts
Chicken Tagliatelle ready meal - WHOLE packet.
Beed and black bean 'take away' ready meal - WHOLE 2 serving packet.
* I only had 1/3rd of the apple pie - rest for tomorrow.

I'm confused. You only eat real food 33% of the time? So the other 67% (not 66%) is not real food? Is it frankenfood or what? You do realize that living organisms, some of which we eat, undergo genetic modification naturally. The process is known as evolution. See the problem I have with some folks preaching their way of eating is the downright fuzzy logic. I don't care if you call it Paleo, vegan, or smurfilious it all boils down to fuzzy logic. Someone referred to our way of eating as being clean. Umm, no. It is just plain, simple eating AND it isn't a diet, it's the way we have eating ever since either of us can remember. See, no fuzzy logic, no in your face I'm better than you, just a simple this is the way we eat, end of. I have also noticed those including yourself that eat a certain way do a lot of defending why they do so and spend enough time preaching about it. I don't defend or preach about the way we eat. This is the way we eat, pure and simple

geebusuk

A little research is needed here!
Were you to click on my profile, you'd see I mostly eat between the hours of 1-9pm, so 8 hours, leaving 16 hours when I don't eat, or 66% of the time.
Also, by my consumption of two ready meals yesterday, I'd have hoped it was clear I wasn't worried by alarmism like 'frankenfood'!

And yes, I am well aware of how evolution by natural selection works!
Note that humans intentionally changing genetics as we have done for many thousands of years is still evolution.
You can see this in dogs too, with some 'breeds' changing massively over the last 100 years.

One person's "defending and preaching" is another one's "explaining scientific facts to the best of our knowledge".
However, if you look back through most of posts on here, you'll find I also QUESTION people a fair bit - to my mind, a good start to understanding someone else's stance.

DamePiglet

Dame Piglet (great moniker btw) -- the one point of my story that I think you're missing is that I didn't know I had any issues for years. Yes, the later diagnosis definitely connected the dots for me as to why it worked for me. But, before that diagnosis, I just know that I felt a lot better -- that it was the only thing that I'd seen a real definitive difference in fatigue in particular. I don't believe my story is singular in that regard.

From what I know of people that tried the diet, is that an amazing number of them reported things similar to me -- that they felt a LOT better on it, clearer thinking, more energy, digestive issues cleared up or went away, headaches they used to be plagued by vanished or greatly reduced, sleep a lot better, etc. I do believe a lot of these people, like myself, probably have some underlying issue that the diet alleviated. But, like myself, I bet you a lot of them are undiagnosed or are told by their doctors that it's stress (such a common answer for doctors when no "disorder" is readily apparent). Or simply it's a food sensitivity that they were unaware of until they weren't eating it a lot whatever was causing them issues. I certainly had a huge shift in what was "normal" for me.

Accordingly, I believe that's why so many people that have such experiences praise it so highly. In many ways, it did "cure" them. Was is the only "cure"? Maybe, maybe not. Do they feel a lot better on it? Yes. Does that encourage them to continue it? Yes. If it doesn't work, then they simply stop. It's really nothing that rises to the level of "suffering" that you reference. It's meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, good fats, nuts, dairy (if it works for you) -- at least for the Primal I follow. There are a lot of choices -- very little "suffering" (#firstworldproblems).

So, you can call it a fad all you want, but I've read a lot of the nutritional science behind many of the concepts, and many of them are reasonable from a biological, biochemical and physiological perspective. Definitive, no. Reasonable, yes. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions -- and that's the nature of so much of science.

What I still fail to understand is where people like you or others on this board care about the semantics of the label, the anthropological accuracy (that's not really what a real Caveman ate!), or other peripheral non-sense. It's not a movement that you're a part of, so why do you care? Why not just keep your eyes on your own paper? If you disagree with the science of the nutritional precepts, fine. State so and enter a lively debate about them. But, most of the anit-Paleo/Primal assertions I've seen are conclusory statements, mockery, ridicule or baseless assertions. Or frankly, self-righteous puffery, which is terribly ironic coming from the very same people complaining about insufferable pretention coming from the Paleo/Primal people. Pot or kettle?

Also where are these people that wear their diets like trendy accessories? I live in Northern California, a place that is pretty focused on food and healthy living, and I've literally never met them. I've met plenty of other types that are plenty obnoxious, but none that brag about their diets -- whether Paleo, IIFYM or otherwise. Do you find them hanging out at the juice bar in the gym or something?

It's almost as if Paleo/Primal did such people some ancestral wrong or ran over their puppy -- that's the level of irrational hostility I see from many (not aimed at you in particular) on this board. It really feels very similar to religious or political zealots who invest themselves in trying to tear down all other ideologies in order to give themselves greater comfort for their own beliefs (or doubt therein). Just what I've observed...

My personal issue with the name of the diet is that it encourages ignorance. It implies (and, to be honest, the diet IS touted as) "what ancestral people ate" - and as you can see even in this thread - people actually believe that.

There's already too much ignorance and mis-information out there. Breeding more is wrong.

I know 3 people who have opted to eat that way IRL. One does it because he has digestive issues. He is happy and has a good attitude.

Unfortunately, two do it because they believe (mistakenly) that it's a "get slim quick" diet. Neither one is succeeding, both complain (whine) that they "can't" (won't allow themselves) to eat things they enjoy, and both roll their eyes at me when I eat what they're missing. Then I have to hear lovely things like, "if i didn't like you so much, I'd hate you. It must be nice to be able to eat what you want." They both binge and call themselves "bad" because they "failed." I DON'T like to hear people call themselves "bad" or gain weight because they're misinformed.
And all because they're buying in to garbage information.

FTR, my gym does not have a juice bar. It does have a vending machine with water & Powerade, but that's it. And when I'm at the gym, I'm not socializing... I'm busting *kitten*. The people that I'm referring to don't go to my gym. One doesn't do any exercise.

ETA: you clearly had issues that led you investigate changing your eating. I find all this telling people who aren't experiencing any issues that it "cures problems that you don't even know you have" as terribly condescending. That was my issue with some of your pals here in the forums. If I say I'm doing well, it's insulting to say "but how do YOU know?" As if people can't make those determinations for themselves and other forum posters know better. :noway:

tennisdude2004

Dame Piglet (great moniker btw) -- the one point of my story that I think you're missing is that I didn't know I had any issues for years. Yes, the later diagnosis definitely connected the dots for me as to why it worked for me. But, before that diagnosis, I just know that I felt a lot better -- that it was the only thing that I'd seen a real definitive difference in fatigue in particular. I don't believe my story is singular in that regard.

From what I know of people that tried the diet, is that an amazing number of them reported things similar to me -- that they felt a LOT better on it, clearer thinking, more energy, digestive issues cleared up or went away, headaches they used to be plagued by vanished or greatly reduced, sleep a lot better, etc. I do believe a lot of these people, like myself, probably have some underlying issue that the diet alleviated. But, like myself, I bet you a lot of them are undiagnosed or are told by their doctors that it's stress (such a common answer for doctors when no "disorder" is readily apparent). Or simply it's a food sensitivity that they were unaware of until they weren't eating it a lot whatever was causing them issues. I certainly had a huge shift in what was "normal" for me.

Accordingly, I believe that's why so many people that have such experiences praise it so highly. In many ways, it did "cure" them. Was is the only "cure"? Maybe, maybe not. Do they feel a lot better on it? Yes. Does that encourage them to continue it? Yes. If it doesn't work, then they simply stop. It's really nothing that rises to the level of "suffering" that you reference. It's meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, good fats, nuts, dairy (if it works for you) -- at least for the Primal I follow. There are a lot of choices -- very little "suffering" (#firstworldproblems).

So, you can call it a fad all you want, but I've read a lot of the nutritional science behind many of the concepts, and many of them are reasonable from a biological, biochemical and physiological perspective. Definitive, no. Reasonable, yes. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions -- and that's the nature of so much of science.

What I still fail to understand is where people like you or others on this board care about the semantics of the label, the anthropological accuracy (that's not really what a real Caveman ate!), or other peripheral non-sense. It's not a movement that you're a part of, so why do you care? Why not just keep your eyes on your own paper? If you disagree with the science of the nutritional precepts, fine. State so and enter a lively debate about them. But, most of the anit-Paleo/Primal assertions I've seen are conclusory statements, mockery, ridicule or baseless assertions. Or frankly, self-righteous puffery, which is terribly ironic coming from the very same people complaining about insufferable pretention coming from the Paleo/Primal people. Pot or kettle?

Also where are these people that wear their diets like trendy accessories? I live in Northern California, a place that is pretty focused on food and healthy living, and I've literally never met them. I've met plenty of other types that are plenty obnoxious, but none that brag about their diets -- whether Paleo, IIFYM or otherwise. Do you find them hanging out at the juice bar in the gym or something?

It's almost as if Paleo/Primal did such people some ancestral wrong or ran over their puppy -- that's the level of irrational hostility I see from many (not aimed at you in particular) on this board. It really feels very similar to religious or political zealots who invest themselves in trying to tear down all other ideologies in order to give themselves greater comfort for their own beliefs (or doubt therein). Just what I've observed...

My personal issue with the name of the diet is that it encourages ignorance. It implies (and, to be honest, the diet IS touted as) "what ancestral people ate" - and as you can see even in this thread - people actually believe that.

There's already too much ignorance and mis-information out there. Breeding more is wrong.

I know 3 people who have opted to eat that way IRL. One does it because he has digestive issues. He is happy and has a good attitude.

Unfortunately, two do it because they believe (mistakenly) that it's a "get slim quick" diet. Neither one is succeeding, both complain (whine) that they "can't" (won't allow themselves) to eat things they enjoy, and both roll their eyes at me when I eat what they're missing. Then I have to hear lovely things like, "if i didn't like you so much, I'd hate you. It must be nice to be able to eat what you want." They both binge and call themselves "bad" because they "failed." I DON'T like to hear people call themselves "bad" or gain weight because they're misinformed.
And all because they're buying in to garbage information.

FTR, my gym does not have a juice bar. It does have a vending machine with water & Powerade, but that's it. And when I'm at the gym, I'm not socializing... I'm busting *kitten*. The people that I'm referring to don't go to my gym. One doesn't do any exercise.

I agree with you 100% on the ignorance and lack of understanding issue.

I've been on these forums for a couple of months now and I am gob smacked at how quick people are to make comment and judgement on things they haven't even researched.

I also agree that the name Paleo/primal are a bit lame - but then most people doing the diets - follow them for the health benefits and don't really worry about the correct naming of the diet.

Lets be honest you don't care how ugly your house from the outside when you're inside looking out.

So maybe it would be best if we didn't mention Paleo anymore and just refer to it as LICHIF.

Holly_Roman_Empire

Dame Piglet (great moniker btw) -- the one point of my story that I think you're missing is that I didn't know I had any issues for years. Yes, the later diagnosis definitely connected the dots for me as to why it worked for me. But, before that diagnosis, I just know that I felt a lot better -- that it was the only thing that I'd seen a real definitive difference in fatigue in particular. I don't believe my story is singular in that regard.

From what I know of people that tried the diet, is that an amazing number of them reported things similar to me -- that they felt a LOT better on it, clearer thinking, more energy, digestive issues cleared up or went away, headaches they used to be plagued by vanished or greatly reduced, sleep a lot better, etc. I do believe a lot of these people, like myself, probably have some underlying issue that the diet alleviated. But, like myself, I bet you a lot of them are undiagnosed or are told by their doctors that it's stress (such a common answer for doctors when no "disorder" is readily apparent). Or simply it's a food sensitivity that they were unaware of until they weren't eating it a lot whatever was causing them issues. I certainly had a huge shift in what was "normal" for me.

Accordingly, I believe that's why so many people that have such experiences praise it so highly. In many ways, it did "cure" them. Was is the only "cure"? Maybe, maybe not. Do they feel a lot better on it? Yes. Does that encourage them to continue it? Yes. If it doesn't work, then they simply stop. It's really nothing that rises to the level of "suffering" that you reference. It's meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, good fats, nuts, dairy (if it works for you) -- at least for the Primal I follow. There are a lot of choices -- very little "suffering" (#firstworldproblems).

So, you can call it a fad all you want, but I've read a lot of the nutritional science behind many of the concepts, and many of them are reasonable from a biological, biochemical and physiological perspective. Definitive, no. Reasonable, yes. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions -- and that's the nature of so much of science.

What I still fail to understand is where people like you or others on this board care about the semantics of the label, the anthropological accuracy (that's not really what a real Caveman ate!), or other peripheral non-sense. It's not a movement that you're a part of, so why do you care? Why not just keep your eyes on your own paper? If you disagree with the science of the nutritional precepts, fine. State so and enter a lively debate about them. But, most of the anit-Paleo/Primal assertions I've seen are conclusory statements, mockery, ridicule or baseless assertions. Or frankly, self-righteous puffery, which is terribly ironic coming from the very same people complaining about insufferable pretention coming from the Paleo/Primal people. Pot or kettle?

Also where are these people that wear their diets like trendy accessories? I live in Northern California, a place that is pretty focused on food and healthy living, and I've literally never met them. I've met plenty of other types that are plenty obnoxious, but none that brag about their diets -- whether Paleo, IIFYM or otherwise. Do you find them hanging out at the juice bar in the gym or something?

It's almost as if Paleo/Primal did such people some ancestral wrong or ran over their puppy -- that's the level of irrational hostility I see from many (not aimed at you in particular) on this board. It really feels very similar to religious or political zealots who invest themselves in trying to tear down all other ideologies in order to give themselves greater comfort for their own beliefs (or doubt therein). Just what I've observed...

I hypothesize that whole "feel better" conclusion to eating a certain way has more to do with better macro balance than anything else.

DamePiglet

Dame Piglet (great moniker btw) -- the one point of my story that I think you're missing is that I didn't know I had any issues for years. Yes, the later diagnosis definitely connected the dots for me as to why it worked for me. But, before that diagnosis, I just know that I felt a lot better -- that it was the only thing that I'd seen a real definitive difference in fatigue in particular. I don't believe my story is singular in that regard.

From what I know of people that tried the diet, is that an amazing number of them reported things similar to me -- that they felt a LOT better on it, clearer thinking, more energy, digestive issues cleared up or went away, headaches they used to be plagued by vanished or greatly reduced, sleep a lot better, etc. I do believe a lot of these people, like myself, probably have some underlying issue that the diet alleviated. But, like myself, I bet you a lot of them are undiagnosed or are told by their doctors that it's stress (such a common answer for doctors when no "disorder" is readily apparent). Or simply it's a food sensitivity that they were unaware of until they weren't eating it a lot whatever was causing them issues. I certainly had a huge shift in what was "normal" for me.

Accordingly, I believe that's why so many people that have such experiences praise it so highly. In many ways, it did "cure" them. Was is the only "cure"? Maybe, maybe not. Do they feel a lot better on it? Yes. Does that encourage them to continue it? Yes. If it doesn't work, then they simply stop. It's really nothing that rises to the level of "suffering" that you reference. It's meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, good fats, nuts, dairy (if it works for you) -- at least for the Primal I follow. There are a lot of choices -- very little "suffering" (#firstworldproblems).

So, you can call it a fad all you want, but I've read a lot of the nutritional science behind many of the concepts, and many of them are reasonable from a biological, biochemical and physiological perspective. Definitive, no. Reasonable, yes. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions -- and that's the nature of so much of science.

What I still fail to understand is where people like you or others on this board care about the semantics of the label, the anthropological accuracy (that's not really what a real Caveman ate!), or other peripheral non-sense. It's not a movement that you're a part of, so why do you care? Why not just keep your eyes on your own paper? If you disagree with the science of the nutritional precepts, fine. State so and enter a lively debate about them. But, most of the anit-Paleo/Primal assertions I've seen are conclusory statements, mockery, ridicule or baseless assertions. Or frankly, self-righteous puffery, which is terribly ironic coming from the very same people complaining about insufferable pretention coming from the Paleo/Primal people. Pot or kettle?

Also where are these people that wear their diets like trendy accessories? I live in Northern California, a place that is pretty focused on food and healthy living, and I've literally never met them. I've met plenty of other types that are plenty obnoxious, but none that brag about their diets -- whether Paleo, IIFYM or otherwise. Do you find them hanging out at the juice bar in the gym or something?

It's almost as if Paleo/Primal did such people some ancestral wrong or ran over their puppy -- that's the level of irrational hostility I see from many (not aimed at you in particular) on this board. It really feels very similar to religious or political zealots who invest themselves in trying to tear down all other ideologies in order to give themselves greater comfort for their own beliefs (or doubt therein). Just what I've observed...

I hypothesize that whole "feel better" conclusion to eating a certain way has more to do with better macro balance than anything else.

I know for me, personally, I would not have improved macro balance on Paleo because it excludes foods that I eat to balance my micros and macros. I think that your hypothesis would be a good one to test.

jmv7117

A little research is needed here!
Were you to click on my profile, you'd see I mostly eat between the hours of 1-9pm, so 8 hours, leaving 16 hours when I don't eat, or 66% of the time.
Also, by my consumption of two ready meals yesterday, I'd have hoped it was clear I wasn't worried by alarmism like 'frankenfood'!

And yes, I am well aware of how evolution by natural selection works!
Note that humans intentionally changing genetics as we have done for many thousands of years is still evolution.
You can see this in dogs too, with some 'breeds' changing massively over the last 100 years.

One person's "defending and preaching" is another one's "explaining scientific facts to the best of our knowledge".
However, if you look back through most of posts on here, you'll find I also QUESTION people a fair bit - to my mind, a good start to understanding someone else's stance.

Quite frankly I don't have the inclination to research what you are doing. It's your choice. However, don't be preaching something you are clearly not practicing. It is hypocritical and that is the thing I don't like about those droning on and on about the Paleo diet as if it is some magical cure-all. It isn't. To me, it makes perfect sense to avoid potentially harmful ingredients in the foods you eat. Why not just say that's what you are doing instead of claiming Paleo? Why not just say you are making healthy food choices? A lot of times, and I have dealt with it a on many occasions, those eating Paleo (current fad term) come across as arrogant, condescending and very judgmental as if their way is the only way. Now, I personally would not put a ready meal in my body BUT I sure would not tell someone else they should or shouldn't. It's their choice to eat as they choose.

H0neybug

I couldn't even read all 7 pages of posts and get a clear answer. Here's my 2 cents:

Eat what makes YOUR body feel good

If you want to grow your own fruits and vegetables so you know they are healthy go for it. If you can kill a cactus like me go to the store and buy what you hope is the healthiest.

YOU will know what works best for your body...your body will tell you, not a million people telling you what works for THEIR bodies.

Whatever you decide stick with it for 7 to 14 days to give it time to see if it works or not, then adjust from there if needed.

Good luck!

tennisdude2004

A little research is needed here!
Were you to click on my profile, you'd see I mostly eat between the hours of 1-9pm, so 8 hours, leaving 16 hours when I don't eat, or 66% of the time.
Also, by my consumption of two ready meals yesterday, I'd have hoped it was clear I wasn't worried by alarmism like 'frankenfood'!

And yes, I am well aware of how evolution by natural selection works!
Note that humans intentionally changing genetics as we have done for many thousands of years is still evolution.
You can see this in dogs too, with some 'breeds' changing massively over the last 100 years.

One person's "defending and preaching" is another one's "explaining scientific facts to the best of our knowledge".
However, if you look back through most of posts on here, you'll find I also QUESTION people a fair bit - to my mind, a good start to understanding someone else's stance.

Quite frankly I don't have the inclination to research what you are doing. It's your choice. However, don't be preaching something you are clearly not practicing. It is hypocritical and that is the thing I don't like about those droning on and on about the Paleo diet as if it is some magical cure-all. It isn't. To me, it makes perfect sense to avoid potentially harmful ingredients in the foods you eat. Why not just say that's what you are doing instead of claiming Paleo? Why not just say you are making healthy food choices? A lot of times, and I have dealt with it a on many occasions, those eating Paleo (current fad term) come across as arrogant, condescending and very judgmental as if their way is the only way. Now, I personally would not put a ready meal in my body BUT I sure would not tell someone else they should or shouldn't. It's their choice to eat as they choose.

We all come across different people from different diets in PREACH mode. I tend not to judge the diet by the actions of a few individuals - but hey that's just me.

I would say however that in the couple of months I have been on MFP (and they are a great community) I haven't come across one thread or post with anyone saying Don't eat whatever you want Low Carb High Fat is the ONLY way to go (That's not saying there aren't any threads, just I haven't seen them).

Now on the reverse the moment you mention Paleo or primal - straight off the bat people say Don't do it just eat what you want in moderation - In fact on a similar thread running now one of the first couple of post start ' Paleo diet is CRAP' - this was written by someone who doesn't know anything about the diet!!!

I'm with you in regards to we shouldn't tell people what to do. What forums like this were set up to do where for like minded people to offer suggestion and support - not to vilify others.

lindsey1979

Do you tend to go around policing other people's religions and politics? Do you go on political boards and tell someone that they're not Libertarian enough, or because they disagree with one tenet of the Republican party, that they can't really call themselves Republicans? What about Jews, Catholics, Muslims, etc.?

To be fair, this isn't a Paleo forum. This is a Paleo thread, open to anyone. That's why MFP has groups. Any special interest group should expect public notice when having a public discussion. You don't get to walk into the Student Center at your University, post a sign advertising "Religion Political Meeting in the middle of the square" and expect it to be all supporters. You can offer a private meeting, in a private venue, and ask people to leave that clearly shouldn't be there. I definitely relate to not wanting to debate my diet or lifestyle. I love the groups I belong to here that focus on those, and if I wander into a vegan thread in the main forum, I do so with eyes wide open. When you post on a general forum, questions and challenges can be expected. I have little interest in defending the vegan diet, so my preferred place to post is again the groups. I will often go to veg threads and let them know about the groups because the main forums do invite really diverse opinions, and as you know, sometimes that's not what you're looking for. That's ok. We all make those choices in some area of our lives. Keeping an open-mind is one thing, constantly explaining and defending yourself is another.

MFP doesn't allow religious threads in the main forums, but I am confident that if someone came on stating that they follow Religion X's dietary practices 80% of the time, others would argue that that person does not actually follow the religion's guidelines in that area. (It's true that you'd be lucky to find someone who truly does adhere to all of a religion's practices 100% of the time. The idea that people do not is the basis for some major religions. But it's not a directive to "Sin 20% of the time." *I don't think that eating non-Paleo is sinning. It's recognized as a deviation from the teachings, from the beliefs.)

Semantics matter a great deal. Words have meaning, what people do and call what they do has meaning. The idea that the names we give to ideas is insignificant is as confusing to me as non-Paleo's criticizing the Paleo diet is to you. (It's actually what draws me to this topic, the resistance to examining what Paleo is in practice. It's not that it's Paleo, it's the idea that semantics are unimportant that gets my interest.) The most effective arguments on this point from the Paleo side for me has been explaining that the 80/20 is an accepted part of the diet/belief system/lifestyle structure and why. (A debate between 80/20 Paleo and Purist Paleos is a debate I would watch with interest.)

For this reason: a Paleo diet gave me Type II Diabetes. (LIes, all lies.) If I were to make this claim, my guess is the semantics would matter a great deal to Paleo dieters. You would likely want to know details. Was I Paleo "enough?" You'd be right to want to know. But you can't have it only one way. It doesn't work that way for pretty much anything I can think of in life. (I'm sure someone can think of something.)

To go back to religion, if a religion that emphasizes negatives of the gay lifestyle met openly and talked about having gay relationships only 20% of the time, yes, those people would get quite a lot of feedback, particularly from those who do not share their beliefs, for reasons that don't have to be explained.

I guess I just see a lot of these issues as useless judging. Not the type of judging relative to moral issues, which I think is valuable, but the useless judging as to lifestyle preferences. The type from people that serves no purpose other than to be divisive. I don't see it as respectful, nor helpful, and oftentimes just downright emotionally dishonest (i.e. not from a place of honest desire to help, but out of misplaced self-righteousness and occasionally downright bullying by small, petty people). You're free to do it, of course, but I just disagree with it and see no value in it. But, I guess if it makes you feel better, there's at least that.

lindsey1979

Paleo is basically going back to how your ancestors lived, there we're not chocolate bars on store shelves, no Mr Noodles, no Frozen Lasanga.... i have been living Paleo for a month - I chose Paleo because of poor health, lack of energy, no desire to do anything, and my dr couldnt find anything wrong with me.
So, now i am full of energy, i can think straight again, i have lost inches, and am WAY easier to get a long with.
I dont eat anything processed, this includes, BREAD!.
If i want a chocolate treat, i mix some Organic Powedered unsweaten Cocoa, with some honey, and dip some dates in it, or Orange slices or whatever.. NOT COOKIES
I do eat Dairy, so, some would banish me from the Paleo Group.... Greek - 0 Fat - Yogurt... And i put half n half in my coffee.
And yes, i still drink coffee.
For the most part my diet consists of , Fresh washed fruits and vegetables, 100 Meat products, no Frozen pumped full of chemical chicken breasts.
to Sum it up, read the label, if it contains any form of sugar, and any ingredients that are not naturally part of the product, dont eat it!
Email me if you would like more tips, i am going on 6 weeks, and LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

This is why we mock.

You're not eating clean. You're not eating Paleo or Primal. You're practicing moderation and enjoying processed foods like everyone else.

You tell people you don't eat any processed foods, and then run down a list of all the processed foods you eat. You tell people that if it contains any form of sugar or ingredients not natural to the product they shouldn't eat it, but you drink half and half and eat store brand yogurt.

You can't even follow the diet you claim to be on and you tell others to ask you for tips on how to do it.

You're not Paleo. You're practicing moderation. Congratulations. You aren't really on the fad diet you claim you're on, and that's a good thing.

Do you find mocking and ridicule to be useful interpersonal tool in you life? Do you regularly mock and ridicule people who think or act differently than you do or may be mistaken about something?

This is what I find ironic, and frankly, downright cowardly. I have a hard time imagining so many people doing this in real life. In my experience, if you do this, you'll lose pretty much all credibility in a group of reasonable adults. It makes you sound like a petulant teenager and complete jerk. And that's what is so confusing to me -- do you have any understanding that you delivery undercuts your supposed message? People look like jerks when they stoop to such levels. And either they really are like this in life -- and if so, it must be very, very lonely -- or they only do this on anonymous internet boards (far too common as a general rule) -- and it's cowardly in my opinion.

tennisdude2004

Paleo is basically going back to how your ancestors lived, there we're not chocolate bars on store shelves, no Mr Noodles, no Frozen Lasanga.... i have been living Paleo for a month - I chose Paleo because of poor health, lack of energy, no desire to do anything, and my dr couldnt find anything wrong with me.
So, now i am full of energy, i can think straight again, i have lost inches, and am WAY easier to get a long with.
I dont eat anything processed, this includes, BREAD!.
If i want a chocolate treat, i mix some Organic Powedered unsweaten Cocoa, with some honey, and dip some dates in it, or Orange slices or whatever.. NOT COOKIES
I do eat Dairy, so, some would banish me from the Paleo Group.... Greek - 0 Fat - Yogurt... And i put half n half in my coffee.
And yes, i still drink coffee.
For the most part my diet consists of , Fresh washed fruits and vegetables, 100 Meat products, no Frozen pumped full of chemical chicken breasts.
to Sum it up, read the label, if it contains any form of sugar, and any ingredients that are not naturally part of the product, dont eat it!
Email me if you would like more tips, i am going on 6 weeks, and LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

This is why we mock.

You're not eating clean. You're not eating Paleo or Primal. You're practicing moderation and enjoying processed foods like everyone else.

You tell people you don't eat any processed foods, and then run down a list of all the processed foods you eat. You tell people that if it contains any form of sugar or ingredients not natural to the product they shouldn't eat it, but you drink half and half and eat store brand yogurt.

You can't even follow the diet you claim to be on and you tell others to ask you for tips on how to do it.

You're not Paleo. You're practicing moderation. Congratulations. You aren't really on the fad diet you claim you're on, and that's a good thing.

The name Paleo may be fad but the diet is not.

You don't have to be free of sin to be catholic - that's why they have confessionals!!!! Yet I would not claim someone having to go to confession as not being Catholic.

Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat.

Now unless I am wrong but people were following this style of diet over a century ago - so I wouldn't class eating this style as Fad.

If you really are only hung up on the name (which clearly you are) then when you refer to it call it LICHIF or something else which describes it more accurately.

But at the end of the day unless you point out some health reason for not eating low car / high fat - I really don't understand your anger?

Holly_Roman_Empire

Paleo is basically going back to how your ancestors lived, there we're not chocolate bars on store shelves, no Mr Noodles, no Frozen Lasanga.... i have been living Paleo for a month - I chose Paleo because of poor health, lack of energy, no desire to do anything, and my dr couldnt find anything wrong with me.
So, now i am full of energy, i can think straight again, i have lost inches, and am WAY easier to get a long with.
I dont eat anything processed, this includes, BREAD!.
If i want a chocolate treat, i mix some Organic Powedered unsweaten Cocoa, with some honey, and dip some dates in it, or Orange slices or whatever.. NOT COOKIES
I do eat Dairy, so, some would banish me from the Paleo Group.... Greek - 0 Fat - Yogurt... And i put half n half in my coffee.
And yes, i still drink coffee.
For the most part my diet consists of , Fresh washed fruits and vegetables, 100 Meat products, no Frozen pumped full of chemical chicken breasts.
to Sum it up, read the label, if it contains any form of sugar, and any ingredients that are not naturally part of the product, dont eat it!
Email me if you would like more tips, i am going on 6 weeks, and LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

This is why we mock.

You're not eating clean. You're not eating Paleo or Primal. You're practicing moderation and enjoying processed foods like everyone else.

You tell people you don't eat any processed foods, and then run down a list of all the processed foods you eat. You tell people that if it contains any form of sugar or ingredients not natural to the product they shouldn't eat it, but you drink half and half and eat store brand yogurt.

You can't even follow the diet you claim to be on and you tell others to ask you for tips on how to do it.

You're not Paleo. You're practicing moderation. Congratulations. You aren't really on the fad diet you claim you're on, and that's a good thing.

The name Paleo may be fad but the diet is not.

You don't have to be free of sin to be catholic - that's why they have confessionals!!!! Yet I would not claim someone having to go to confession as not being Catholic.

Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat.

Now unless I am wrong but people were following this style of diet over a century ago - so I wouldn't class eating this style as Fad.

If you really are only hung up on the name (which clearly you are) then when you refer to it call it LICHIF or something else which describes it more accurately.

But at the end of the day unless you point out some health reason for not eating low car / high fat - I really don't understand your anger?

wtf does this even mean?!