Paleo vs. Clean eating?

bcattoes

why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!

We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.

I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.

I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!

You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.

No, there is not. Lectins are in many non-legume foods. Mushrooms, asparagus, radishes, zucchini, cherries, coffee beans, strawberries, walnuts, sunflower seeds ... the list is quite long. It's pretty much impossible to avoid lectins in food.

It's a completely ridiculous claim. Beans are not unhealthy food.

DamePiglet

When I was starting out on MFP, I often sought guidance by looking through the profiles and diaries of MFP forum posters to compare and contrast what they are doing and their personal goals with what I am doing and MY personal goals.

I found the information invaluable. For example, I thought I'd NEVER take strength training seriously, but after seeing the differences it's made in people's bodies, I changed my mind.

I've even checked out the profiles and diaries of people who are vegetarian and vegan to see how they get the nutrients they need. I've learned a lot.

Now, Paleo/Primal/Clean folks, this is NOT an attack. It's an observation (and eventually a suggestion...)

You claim that there are all kinds of studies out there that say that the foods I eat are unhealthy choices... that your choices are healthy and science backs that up, but you refuse to post articles that support that claim.

Okay, fine... maybe your profiles will provide some insight into how this method of eating is beneficial...
Very few of you have open diaries. You don't have pictures of yourself (or if you do, it's physically non-descript). Your profile is private.

Meanwhile, throughout the threads, I've seen posts by people numerous others that include links to publications, not to mention that they have photo and diary evidence that supports their claims.

Don't you think that perhaps you would be more encouraging and supportive of people who are considering / might consider your way if you actually provided SOMETHING that gave you some credibility, besides just saying, "this is my experience" in threads like this?

jmv7117

Obviously there is evidence. Do you not know how to do the research yourself? And, for the record you were the one to jump all over me because of our eating/lifestyle. What you agenda is, is of no concern to me. Eat clean, eat dirty, eat upside down. I don't care. As far as food additives, why don't you research on some of those found in foods like sodium benzoate or yellow dye #5 or BPA. All have direct and negative effects on health. Here's another hint for you to research; the effects of excess sodium and sugar on the human body, something most processed foods are high in. Oh, and HFCS is a real winner. You can even research the effects of antibiotics in meat and their effect on the human body or just take your chances and hope you don't actually need to use antibiotics at some point. I honestly don't care if you want to eat these ingredients. The list goes on and on. Be my guest. I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position.

You appear to have an axe to grind which I hear doesn't burn all that many calories but does raise your cortisol levels

Spoken like a true ignorant zealot

Wow - your response was typed with angry fingers. Lol

But just to get this straight - anyone who doesn't agree with you and asks you to look up your own research is an ignorant zealot (I'm sure there's some logic there somewhere)!

Logic? Like this logic?

" I 'choose' not to on the basis of scientific research that supports my position. "

What does he do with the wealth of scientific research that disagrees with his position? How does he factor in what the bulk of literature says on a given subject? If it disagrees with his position, just cherry picks ones that do agree?

Again, misinformation! I am a 'she' not a 'he' Perhaps I should do a bit of research to confirm that though. I am not cherry picking either. Go ahead, eat what you want. As I responded to others who have a huge problem with anyone who eats a bit different, I really don't care. I saw the same type of thing when vegetarianism first came into mainstream. Those who believe their way of eating is healthier are going to carry on regardless of what the naysayers say. I will say your insecurities are showing though. So lets flip this. You show me the studies that say these food additives are perfectly fine. They are not causing any cellular damage in the body and they are not have any and I do mean any negative health effects. You show me the studies that say 'eating clean' is an unhealthy way of eating. The shoe is on your foot...

Good luck with that within a few minutes one of them will say - you claimed it so you've got to prove it!! I think is like the rule or something - DERP

LOL - How funny, as I was typing my message above one of them did!!! This day is getting funnier and funnier

When you make a claim, it is up to the claimant to provide evidence.

If I was going to claim, for example, that eating apples gives you chronic myeloid leukemia, I would be expected to provide evidence so that other posters who might be interested could read the evidence. If, when asked for the evidence, I asserted that there was plenty of evidence and people would just have to look it up for themselves, then everyone would call bs, and so they should.

You are quite right.

But as you are claiming there is no evidence and therefore the claims are false the burden has switched and you are now the holder of the burden

Wow, I can really smell the desperation. :laugh:

Nevertheless I'll play (but I must go to bed in a minute). If you go back a few pages you will see that in fact I simply questioned the claims and asked the claimant to provide evidence to support the claims. As nutrition and genetics are both interests of mine, I would have been particularly interested in reading the evidence that the claimant could provide. Instead of providing that evidence she (and you) got defensive. That, of course, speaks volumes.

They say a skunk smells its own stink first As the claimant, I am not getting defensive. I am rather amused though. How was your run?

jmv7117

I personally do not think the 'processing' is a good way to choose what food to consume or not, unless it's a religious thing.
Err, except that I think religion is pretty stupid, so still not then, actually.

And yes, so far I've not had a congruent answer that is consistent.
Can you provide me with one?
___

Has anyone claimed there is 'no evidence'? I, for instnace, have said I haven't seen any good evidence. Not the same as 'no evidence'.

I hear ya, I do. No, I couldn't give you a definitive answer for clean, only my meaning. To me healthier is just selecting the lions share of my food that are more nutrient dense than calorie dense, which generally points to more whole foods. Processed well, for example, last night we had fish and chips. The fish was pickerel that we caught ice fishing a month ago to which I suspended in water and froze. I use lard in my deep fryer and cooked up a mess of fish and chips......to me this is minimally processed and natural....yes I used a breading of panko. I grow veg and also get it locally but sometimes I buy canned, for example I really like the san marzano tomatoes from Italy and only come from there. There's a few examples of me eating clean.

Pickerel is delicious! We are lucky that we get to enjoy it several times a year, all fresh caught and froze the way you do. I don't use panko though but rather organic unbleached flour. We had perch a couple of nights ago coated with almond flour. That was tasty! I have heard a lot about the san marzano tomatoes but haven't tried them as we don't buy commercially canned foods. It might be worth finding the seeds

bcattoes

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

DamePiglet

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

Organ meats tend to have a lot of fat content. My guess is that's where they got it.

tennisdude2004

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

I am no expert, but I would hazard a guess that when they ate the animal they ate the whole thing. Flesh (depending on the animal maybe skin - maybe not if it was too furry. lol), sinew, organs (offal), bone marrow.

I don't eat this style to wear as a badge by the way, but I eat primal Blue Print and it is very much recommended to eat as much of the animal as possible (they have a great recipe for bone marrow soup).

That is best guess I'm afraid.

bcattoes

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

I am no expert, but I would hazard a guess that when they ate the animal they ate the whole thing. Flesh, sinew, organs (offal), bone marrow.

I don't eat this style to wear as a badge by the way, but I eat primal Blue Print and it is very much recommended to eat as much of the animal as possible (they have a great recipe for bone marrow soup).

That is best guess I'm afraid.

And there is a lot of fat in the organs and marrow? My husband eats some of the organs of deer he kills and they never seem very fatty.

Charlottesometimes23

You are quite right.

But as you are claiming there is no evidence and therefore the claims are false the burden has switched and you are now the holder of the burden

Wow, I can really smell the desperation. :laugh:

Nevertheless I'll play (but I must go to bed in a minute). If you go back a few pages you will see that in fact I simply questioned the claims and asked the claimant to provide evidence to support the claims. As nutrition and genetics are both interests of mine, I would have been particularly interested in reading the evidence that the claimant could provide. Instead of providing that evidence she (and you) got defensive. That, of course, speaks volumes.

They say a skunk smells its own stink first As the claimant, I am not getting defensive. I am rather amused though. How was your run?

It was good but nowhere near as fun as watching your complete inability to back up your bs.

I'll now take my GMO affected enterocytes to bed. :laugh:

Sreneesa

Edit: lol

neanderthin

I personally do not think the 'processing' is a good way to choose what food to consume or not, unless it's a religious thing.
Err, except that I think religion is pretty stupid, so still not then, actually.

And yes, so far I've not had a congruent answer that is consistent.
Can you provide me with one?
___

Has anyone claimed there is 'no evidence'? I, for instnace, have said I haven't seen any good evidence. Not the same as 'no evidence'.

I hear ya, I do. No, I couldn't give you a definitive answer for clean, only my meaning. To me healthier is just selecting the lions share of my food that are more nutrient dense than calorie dense, which generally points to more whole foods. Processed well, for example, last night we had fish and chips. The fish was pickerel that we caught ice fishing a month ago to which I suspended in water and froze. I use lard in my deep fryer and cooked up a mess of fish and chips......to me this is minimally processed and natural....yes I used a breading of panko. I grow veg and also get it locally but sometimes I buy canned, for example I really like the san marzano tomatoes from Italy and only come from there. There's a few examples of me eating clean.

Pickerel is delicious! We are lucky that we get to enjoy it several times a year, all fresh caught and froze the way you do. I don't use panko though but rather organic unbleached flour. We had perch a couple of nights ago coated with almond flour. That was tasty! I have heard a lot about the san marzano tomatoes but haven't tried them as we don't buy commercially canned foods. It might be worth finding the seeds

Good luck trying to grow san marzano. It's the terroir that makes this product. I grow heirlooms mostly and can a lot, but I have to admit the san marzano's make a damn good passata and I use them exclusively in the Bistro and catering.

Othelie157

So I've been reading up on Paleo.. it looks pretty interesting? Do any of you do Paleo? or Eat Clean.. Im having a little bit trouble finding the true definition of Eating Clean.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. does it mean no processed food... as in nothing coming from a box? or is it something else?

I'm hesitant to jump on the band wagon since i have a lot of stuff in my pantry but I'm really fascinated by it. Can anyone of you give me some insight or share your experience how you started or transitioned in to Paleo or Eating Clean

Thank you
Happy

For my part, I try not to make my diet to complicated. I've tried that in the past and it didn't work. But that is me.
If you want to try out Clean or Paleo diet then do it. Try Paleo for a few weeks, see if it's something you can live with and if it doesn't there is no shame in trying something else.

The important part? This is your journey. Find what works for you.

JocyChan

I did the atkins diet for a while, mostly just eating meat and veggies and once i hit my goal i went back to normal eating and just watching the calories and marcos. I am still dropping weight, so really i think either one can work. You just need to do what works for you, try it, if it works, great! If not, then try something less restrictive.

jmv7117

When I was starting out on MFP, I often sought guidance by looking through the profiles and diaries of MFP forum posters to compare and contrast what they are doing and their personal goals with what I am doing and MY personal goals.

I found the information invaluable. For example, I thought I'd NEVER take strength training seriously, but after seeing the differences it's made in people's bodies, I changed my mind.

I've even checked out the profiles and diaries of people who are vegetarian and vegan to see how they get the nutrients they need. I've learned a lot.

Now, Paleo/Primal/Clean folks, this is NOT an attack. It's an observation (and eventually a suggestion...)

You claim that there are all kinds of studies out there that say that the foods I eat are unhealthy choices... that your choices are healthy and science backs that up, but you refuse to post articles that support that claim.

Okay, fine... maybe your profiles will provide some insight into how this method of eating is beneficial...
Very few of you have open diaries. You don't have pictures of yourself (or if you do, it's physically non-descript). Your profile is private.

Meanwhile, throughout the threads, I've seen posts by people numerous others that include links to publications, not to mention that they have photo and diary evidence that supports their claims.

Don't you think that perhaps you would be more encouraging and supportive of people who are considering / might consider your way if you actually provided SOMETHING that gave you some credibility, besides just saying, "this is my experience" in threads like this?

I can't speak for the other members you are referring to, but I can give insight into my choices. Sometimes 'this is my experience' is all that is necessary. We've eaten this way for over 30 years <shrug>. All I did was initially reply on this thread that we ate what would be considered clean and have done so for a number of years. I personally have not told anyone here that their food choices were not healthy. I have stressed a few times that I really don't care what I eat. You actually made assumptions about our lifestyle then went further to put me down by saying if I had to go to school and raise kids as a single parent it would have been different. You started the mud slinging so why on earth would I want you crawling through my diary? Sure shooting you would find one little thing you didn't consider 'clean' or whatever label you give it to use as another attack. No thanks! My diary is closed because I have seen what happens when you make any comment on the forums. It is solely a member's choice whether to have an open diary or not. In my case it is a privacy issue, not that I need to defend that to you. I could care less what other members are eating. Now, if you were to browse mine you would see a large number of homemade dishes which wouldn't help you one bit. As it is, use your imagination.

bcattoes

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

Organ meats tend to have a lot of fat content. My guess is that's where they got it.

Interesting. I just assumed they were lean because I can't see the fat.

tennisdude2004

<snip>Paleo is basically eating healthily via Low Carb and High Fat. <snip>

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. Given that most wild meat is very lean, where did the caveman get so much fat?

This is a serious question.

I am no expert, but I would hazard a guess that when they ate the animal they ate the whole thing. Flesh, sinew, organs (offal), bone marrow.

I don't eat this style to wear as a badge by the way, but I eat primal Blue Print and it is very much recommended to eat as much of the animal as possible (they have a great recipe for bone marrow soup).

That is best guess I'm afraid.

And there is a lot of fat in the organs and marrow? My husband eats some of the organs of deer he kills and they never seem very fatty.

? sorry I really do not know, but I would guess you kill a large animal like the dear (not sure what the equivalent would be) and if they have say - even 10% body fat that's a fair amount of fat. Plus if you eat the whole thing over a short period of time I would assume your liver will convert some of that excess protein you've consumed into body fat to store and call upon later, when you don't have an animal to eat.

tennisdude2004

So I've been reading up on Paleo.. it looks pretty interesting? Do any of you do Paleo? or Eat Clean.. Im having a little bit trouble finding the true definition of Eating Clean.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. does it mean no processed food... as in nothing coming from a box? or is it something else?

I'm hesitant to jump on the band wagon since i have a lot of stuff in my pantry but I'm really fascinated by it. Can anyone of you give me some insight or share your experience how you started or transitioned in to Paleo or Eating Clean

Thank you
Happy

For my part, I try not to make my diet to complicated. I've tried that in the past and it didn't work. But that is me.
If you want to try out Clean or Paleo diet then do it. Try Paleo for a few weeks, see if it's something you can live with and if it doesn't there is no shame in trying something else.

The important part? This is your journey. Find what works for you.

tennisdude2004

I did the atkins diet for a while, mostly just eating meat and veggies and once i hit my goal i went back to normal eating and just watching the calories and marcos. I am still dropping weight, so really i think either one can work. You just need to do what works for you, try it, if it works, great! If not, then try something less restrictive.

^^^^^ This - what's so hard to comprehend!

Just do what works for YOU

eddiesmith1

"Modern day diseases" ? Would that be the ones that are a lot more seen now because our lifestyles mean we live a lot longer on average?

No, they would be the ones that have only occurred since we've started eating too much processed food full of additives, preservatives and junk food such as diabetes, heart disease, non-alcoholic cirrosis of the liver, bowel cancer and the like some of which are occurring in children and teenages and people under 40 so not because we are living longer as children have never had these diseases 50 or more years ago.

Before the 1930's or so, these diseases were so rare they didn't even have names, and there were plenty of old people around then too.

Really instead of hearsay and analogous BS perhaps you could provide a peer reviewed scientific study that shows an increase in all these diseases linked to diet
I'm betting you can't


OP it sounds like what you've been doing works for you, If you feel healthy and aren't tired run down then stick with it. If you want to eat less processed foods I won't argue it (keeping to the caloric goals that work is the important part) In fact I rarely eat anything heavily processed myself. But I think diets like Paleo are pretty much BS (you couldn't eat the diet if you wanted to because we have no real data on what they ate , and all the plants and animals will have undergone evolution as we have. Why we'd want to eat like ancestors with a third of our lifespan is another thing...

lindsey1979

why do people get soo upset when someone mentions Paleo diet!!?? If that's what they wanna do then the more power to them , who are we to judge?? Geesh!!

We don't judge the diet. We judge the imaginary "caveman" philosophical underpinnings and the bogus reasons to avoid commonly eaten staples.

I judge the diet. Caveman aside it makes completely false assertions like legumes are unhealthy. Legumes are not unheatlhy or toxic.

I don't care if people eat legumes or not, and I don't care what diet strangers choose to follow. But I judge the paleo diet to be a pack of lies! Beans are good food!!

You may not agree with the explanation, but there is a basis. That basis has to do with lectins. You may disagree with the ultimate conclusion that lectins are unhealthy, but there is a reasonable basis for the assertion of why they should be avoided.

No, there is not. Lectins are in many non-legume foods. Mushrooms, asparagus, radishes, zucchini, cherries, coffee beans, strawberries, walnuts, sunflower seeds ... the list is quite long. It's pretty much impossible to avoid lectins in food.

It's a completely ridiculous claim. Beans are not unhealthy food.

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it ridiculous. And, yes, lechtins are in many things, and that's one of the reasons some suggest avoiding the foods that have so many of them (like legumes).