Everything in moderation
Replies
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Sure, here are a few:I was waiting for someone to come back with this, you didn't disappoint me!
Just because something hasn't been scientifically proven (yet!) to be true, it doesn't mean it isn't. In the case of sugar addiction, I default to common sense. Besides, as far as the definition of addiction goes, sugar fits in there quite nicely. Just think of kids coming down off a sugar high!
So for me, I'm not going to wait until it's been proven, I'm going to be smart, do my health and well being a favor, and keep it out of my life. There are too many natural whole food "candies" out there to enjoy anyway. :happy:
You're the one saying there are studies about the addictiveness of refined sugar, so could you provide a link to one? Not being snarky, just asking for a link.
Sugar can be addictive, Princeton scientist says:
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories
Student-faculty research suggests Oreos can be compared to drugs of abuse in lab rats:
http://www.conncoll.edu/news/news-archive/2013/student-faculty-research-suggests-oreos-can-be-compared-to-drugs-of-abuse-in-lab-rats.htm#.Uz1q8fldWSo
Sugar Highs and Lows: The New Science of Sugar Addiction (this is actually a half-hour lecture):
http://uctv.ucsd.edu/search-details.aspx?showID=216920 -
Sure, here are a few:I was waiting for someone to come back with this, you didn't disappoint me!
Just because something hasn't been scientifically proven (yet!) to be true, it doesn't mean it isn't. In the case of sugar addiction, I default to common sense. Besides, as far as the definition of addiction goes, sugar fits in there quite nicely. Just think of kids coming down off a sugar high!
So for me, I'm not going to wait until it's been proven, I'm going to be smart, do my health and well being a favor, and keep it out of my life. There are too many natural whole food "candies" out there to enjoy anyway. :happy:
You're the one saying there are studies about the addictiveness of refined sugar, so could you provide a link to one? Not being snarky, just asking for a link.
Sugar can be addictive, Princeton scientist says:
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories
Student-faculty research suggests Oreos can be compared to drugs of abuse in lab rats:
http://www.conncoll.edu/news/news-archive/2013/student-faculty-research-suggests-oreos-can-be-compared-to-drugs-of-abuse-in-lab-rats.htm#.Uz1q8fldWSo
Sugar Highs and Lows: The New Science of Sugar Addiction (this is actually a half-hour lecture):
http://uctv.ucsd.edu/search-details.aspx?showID=21692
Was Homo erectus addicted to honey? Seeing as they had to fight bees and possibly also climb trees to get it, and when they got it they ate all of it. Probably didn't even want to share it.
Seems to me that a strong desire for sweet foods evolved in many animals because the calories from them provide a significant survival advantage. Even if obtaining them meant climbing trees and fighting with bees. Even gorillas, whose main diet is leaves and coarse plant foods, will choose to eat mangoes in preference to leaves, given a choice, and sweeter fruit in preference to less sweet fruit. And zoo apes can get obese eating sweet fruit if they don't get enough exercise due to a lack of mental stimulation from being in a boring environment (zookeepers need to ensure that primates living spaces are big and interesting enough for them to climb around and do stuff, not just sit around eating fruit).
Is this really addiction or is it a natural survival instinct? Sugar is what animal cells need to stay alive after all....0 -
I was waiting for someone to come back with this, you didn't disappoint me!
And do you think when eating at at deficit when you're more likely to be suspectible to binge eating is a good time to try and address the issues?For those saying "that's great, but that doesn't work for me because I can't control myself",
Might it not be better, say, when you've reached your goal weight and are eating more?
Please provide just one that proves it is an addictive drug to humans.Refined sugar is also an addictive drug, and numerous studies have proven this to be true.
And we're talking working the same way as an addictive drug, not the same way that people can get addicted to ANYTHING they enjoy.
Just because something hasn't been scientifically proven (yet!) to be true, it doesn't mean it isn't. In the case of sugar addiction, I default to common sense. Besides, as far as the definition of addiction goes, sugar fits in there quite nicely. Just think of kids coming down off a sugar high!
So for me, I'm not going to wait until it's been proven, I'm going to be smart, do my health and well being a favor, and keep it out of my life. There are too many natural whole food "candies" out there to enjoy anyway. :happy:
How does "kids coming down off a sugar high" correspond to a sugar addiction??0 -
I'ma go ahead and disagree opie, quantity is itself a quality.Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
I like Doritos. I love Doritos. I think I'm fonder of Doritos than of most people. I'm not fond of Doritos in moderation. I'm not fond of weighing them. I especially hate eating 12 doritos and calling it a treat.
I've tried it, I can do it, got the postcard and the t-shirt. It performs anilingus on simians.
It provides you with a taste of deliciousness, then ends abruptly with no substance to its promise. I won't even dignify it by calling it a tease, it's a taunt and an insult to my masculinity. When I eat Doritos, I'll eat a bag (a big one) washed down by a few beers. I won't do so every day, but every now and again is fine.
I will no more eat Doritos in moderation and call it a treat than I will eat boiled cauliflower and call it steak. They're two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.
But isn't that actually just one way to achieve moderation? You don't eat Doritos everyday, but you don't (apparently) cut them out of your diet completely.
And I don't read these sorts of posts (the OP) as saying you HAVE to eat everything (in moderation). Just that, if you do really love something and chose to eat it occasionally, it is possible to do so without ruining your entire diet. A bag of Doritos/Reeses cup/bowl of ice cream once a week isn't going to kill you, or make you suddenly gain 10 lbs.
Some people think that if they eat ANY of their "forbidden" foods, they have failed. We've all seen the posts "I ate a pizza last night - does this mean I'm doomed?" No, no it doesn't. You don't have to ditch the entire diet because of one meal, even if it put you over your calorie goal for that day (or even week).
This is, as far as I can tell, about long term sustainability. If you are miserable on your diet because you have cut out X and it makes you want to quit, then eat X. Just do it in moderation. Whether that means a few bites every day, or a minor binge once a week/month. Plan for it, log it, look long term. Your diet is about the totality of what you eat, not one single item.
If you are happy with your diet and you can sustain it long term doing whatever you are doing, then good for you! Don't change.
ftr: I do understand that some people need to cut some things out short term in order to "break the cycle". These people need to make sure they do have a plan in place for how they are going to re-introduce those items (if indeed they ever do) back into their regular diet. You can lose weight by going low carb, but you'll gain it all back again if you start back eating huge bowls of pasta everyday once you hit maintenance.0 -
I was waiting for someone to come back with this, you didn't disappoint me!
And do you think when eating at at deficit when you're more likely to be suspectible to binge eating is a good time to try and address the issues?For those saying "that's great, but that doesn't work for me because I can't control myself",
Might it not be better, say, when you've reached your goal weight and are eating more?
Please provide just one that proves it is an addictive drug to humans.Refined sugar is also an addictive drug, and numerous studies have proven this to be true.
And we're talking working the same way as an addictive drug, not the same way that people can get addicted to ANYTHING they enjoy.
[Just because something hasn't been scientifically proven (yet!) to be true, it doesn't mean it isn't. In the case of sugar addiction, I default to common sense. Besides, as far as the definition of addiction goes, sugar fits in there quite nicely. Just think of kids coming down off a sugar high!
So for me, I'm not going to wait until it's been proven, I'm going to be smart, do my health and well being a favor, and keep it out of my life. There are too many natural whole food "candies" out there to enjoy anyway. :happy:
MFP never disappoints...0 -
I'ma go ahead and disagree opie, quantity is itself a quality.Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
I like Doritos. I love Doritos. I think I'm fonder of Doritos than of most people. I'm not fond of Doritos in moderation. I'm not fond of weighing them. I especially hate eating 12 doritos and calling it a treat.
I've tried it, I can do it, got the postcard and the t-shirt. It performs anilingus on simians.
It provides you with a taste of deliciousness, then ends abruptly with no substance to its promise. I won't even dignify it by calling it a tease, it's a taunt and an insult to my masculinity. When I eat Doritos, I'll eat a bag (a big one) washed down by a few beers. I won't do so every day, but every now and again is fine.
I will no more eat Doritos in moderation and call it a treat than I will eat boiled cauliflower and call it steak. They're two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.
But isn't that actually just one way to achieve moderation? You don't eat Doritos everyday, but you don't (apparently) cut them out of your diet completely.
And I don't read these sorts of posts (the OP) as saying you HAVE to eat everything (in moderation). Just that, if you do really love something and chose to eat it occasionally, it is possible to do so without ruining your entire diet. A bag of Doritos/Reeses cup/bowl of ice cream once a week isn't going to kill you, or make you suddenly gain 10 lbs.
Some people think that if they eat ANY of their "forbidden" foods, they have failed. We've all seen the posts "I ate a pizza last night - does this mean I'm doomed?" No, no it doesn't. You don't have to ditch the entire diet because of one meal, even if it put you over your calorie goal for that day (or even week).
This is, as far as I can tell, about long term sustainability. If you are miserable on your diet because you have cut out X and it makes you want to quit, then eat X. Just do it in moderation. Whether that means a few bites every day, or a minor binge once a week/month. Plan for it, log it, look long term. Your diet is about the totality of what you eat, not one single item.
If you are happy with your diet and you can sustain it long term doing whatever you are doing, then good for you! Don't change.
ftr: I do understand that some people need to cut some things out short term in order to "break the cycle". These people need to make sure they do have a plan in place for how they are going to re-introduce those items (if indeed they ever do) back into their regular diet. You can lose weight by going low carb, but you'll gain it all back again if you start back eating huge bowls of pasta everyday once you hit maintenance.
^^^^ this
and very well explained0 -
I love these posts. You must eat EVERYTHING in moderation or you will necessarily fail... oh, you don't enjoy the temptation of having calorie-dense and unsatiating food in your house? Welp, you're going to fail, but moreover you're weak and gluttonous too! Not to mention, if you don't eat these foods on a regular basis, you will have no self control around them! I'm sure people mean well, but the ignorance in these posts is astounding, and to some extent I think these posts are just an excuse for IIFYM advocates to attack people who choose to cut weight without eating certain foods and tell them how wrong they.
Case in point, the folks in my office have an insatiable sweet tooth and our break room at times looks like a dessert buffet with all the things bring in to share. The suggestion that I can't control myself around donuts and other desserts in the break room simply because I don't eat donuts on a regular basis or buy them for my house is a complete fallacy; I carry on conversations with people eating donuts, cake, and a host of other desserts in the breakroom on a daily basis, without partaking of any myself. I'm not miserable or likely to binge, simply because I don't eat a lot of sweets; that may be you, but it's certainly not everyone, and attacking people for disagreeing with such a mindset is just silly. What you buy at the grocery store and stock your pantry with is completely separate from your willpower and your desire to eat certain foods.
That said, I have no problem with an "everything in moderation" approach; just stop pushing it on people and attacking them when they say they choose not to follow it when cutting weight.
if someone can take or leave something but chooses to leave it, then the OP isn't aimed at them
it's aimed at people who tend to binge on certain foods, then respond to that by total abstinence
no-one's shoving anything down anyone's throat, this is an internet forum you can choose which threads to read and not read. but I have been on both sides of the fence in this, i.e. someone who in the past couldn't leave certain foods alone, had to eat the whole pack, overate ridiculously on certain foods..... and I've also learned how not to do that. And having been on both sides of this fence, I like being able to eat what i want in sensible portion sizes without going OTT side of the fence a lot better. My first post on this thread I explained how I did that. and it wasn't abstinence. I post all of this with the intention of possibly helping someone else break out of a cycle of overeating and feeling guilty in response to certain foods, and total abstinence from those foods, and be able to learn how to enjoy those foods without overindulgence or guilt and still hit their calorie targets... I think it would be mean not to share that experience, don't you think?
And I suppose my point is that there are many foods that, if said foods are just lying around, many people will tend to over-consume them; not necessarily in terms of a caloric surplus, but in terms of eating "more than they objectively want to eat" of said food. I personally don't see the harm in avoiding those foods, at least when it comes to having a stockpile of them in your house, and I'm not convinced that's an unhealthy mentality to have.
You don't have to declare a war against those foods and avoid them entirely or avoid them for the rest of your life, but at the same time that doesn't mean you must buy them and consume them regularly. For instance, I tend to over-consume Quest bars if I have a box of them sitting in the pantry. I'll rationalize it by still hitting my macros and calories for the day, but I'll do so through eating multiple Quest bars instead of whole foods, leaving me operating and feeling less than 100%. Have I eliminated Quest bars entirely? No, they're delicious and fit my target macros. Do I buy them and eat them on a regular basis to stave off a binge? No, I don't stock them in the pantry, because I don't want the temptation to use them as meal substitutes. Besides, plenty of things are delicious and my life doesn't revolve around Quest bars. It's just food.
When you say people aren't shoving anything down others throats...Thats disordered eating BTW. It's a mentality thing. I found that if I don't have something I enjoy in the house, I think about it all day long. So now, instead of obsessing over Ben and Jerrys but refusing to have it in the house, I have some but only on lift nights. I'll eat a pint within a week. It's my reward system for a day well spent.
Telling someone they have an eating disorder because they choose not to stock Reese's peanut butter cups in their house isn't shoving an "everything in moderation" down people's throats? I don't stock my pantry with candy either, nor do I obsess over it or think about it all day long. If I did stock my pantry with candy, odds are I'd eat more candy on a weekly basis. However, that's not my goal, so I don't stock my pantry with such foods. I'm failing to see where the problem is.0 -
the concept of EVERYTHING is moderation is a tad ironic no?
also diagnosing people on the forums of having an ED seems irresponsible.0 -
:happy: What you just posted sure does make alot of sense--let's see how I do when I try it--I know I am going to allow myself some goodie at least onnce a week to keep me on the up and up--after all,Rome wasn't built in a day. Jjnancy700
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the concept of EVERYTHING is moderation is a tad ironic no?
also diagnosing people on the forums of having an ED seems irresponsible.
[I know you're not the only person to comment on this, but you're the most recent so I quoted you.]
Just want to point out here that "having an ED" and "having disordered eating" are NOT the same thing.
Dan suggested that this person has disordered eating thoughts -- NOT the same thing as saying he has an eating disorder. Read the DSM before you try to claim that they're the same.0 -
I love these posts. You must eat EVERYTHING in moderation or you will necessarily fail... oh, you don't enjoy the temptation of having calorie-dense and unsatiating food in your house? Welp, you're going to fail, but moreover you're weak and gluttonous too! Not to mention, if you don't eat these foods on a regular basis, you will have no self control around them! I'm sure people mean well, but the ignorance in these posts is astounding, and to some extent I think these posts are just an excuse for IIFYM advocates to attack people who choose to cut weight without eating certain foods and tell them how wrong they.
Case in point, the folks in my office have an insatiable sweet tooth and our break room at times looks like a dessert buffet with all the things bring in to share. The suggestion that I can't control myself around donuts and other desserts in the break room simply because I don't eat donuts on a regular basis or buy them for my house is a complete fallacy; I carry on conversations with people eating donuts, cake, and a host of other desserts in the breakroom on a daily basis, without partaking of any myself. I'm not miserable or likely to binge, simply because I don't eat a lot of sweets; that may be you, but it's certainly not everyone, and attacking people for disagreeing with such a mindset is just silly. What you buy at the grocery store and stock your pantry with is completely separate from your willpower and your desire to eat certain foods.
That said, I have no problem with an "everything in moderation" approach; just stop pushing it on people and attacking them when they say they choose not to follow it when cutting weight.
if someone can take or leave something but chooses to leave it, then the OP isn't aimed at them
it's aimed at people who tend to binge on certain foods, then respond to that by total abstinence
no-one's shoving anything down anyone's throat, this is an internet forum you can choose which threads to read and not read. but I have been on both sides of the fence in this, i.e. someone who in the past couldn't leave certain foods alone, had to eat the whole pack, overate ridiculously on certain foods..... and I've also learned how not to do that. And having been on both sides of this fence, I like being able to eat what i want in sensible portion sizes without going OTT side of the fence a lot better. My first post on this thread I explained how I did that. and it wasn't abstinence. I post all of this with the intention of possibly helping someone else break out of a cycle of overeating and feeling guilty in response to certain foods, and total abstinence from those foods, and be able to learn how to enjoy those foods without overindulgence or guilt and still hit their calorie targets... I think it would be mean not to share that experience, don't you think?
And I suppose my point is that there are many foods that, if said foods are just lying around, many people will tend to over-consume them; not necessarily in terms of a caloric surplus, but in terms of eating "more than they objectively want to eat" of said food. I personally don't see the harm in avoiding those foods, at least when it comes to having a stockpile of them in your house, and I'm not convinced that's an unhealthy mentality to have.
You don't have to declare a war against those foods and avoid them entirely or avoid them for the rest of your life, but at the same time that doesn't mean you must buy them and consume them regularly. For instance, I tend to over-consume Quest bars if I have a box of them sitting in the pantry. I'll rationalize it by still hitting my macros and calories for the day, but I'll do so through eating multiple Quest bars instead of whole foods, leaving me operating and feeling less than 100%. Have I eliminated Quest bars entirely? No, they're delicious and fit my target macros. Do I buy them and eat them on a regular basis to stave off a binge? No, I don't stock them in the pantry, because I don't want the temptation to use them as meal substitutes. Besides, plenty of things are delicious and my life doesn't revolve around Quest bars. It's just food.
but what you're arguing for is moderation, and what the OP is advising people to do. No-one is saying that you MUST buy any particular food or eat it constantly (or if they are then I missed that post and they're in the minority). The argument is against what i bolded in your post above, i.e. total abstinence for a strongly desired food (which is punctuated by unplanned binge eating), which you said you don't agree with either. What you describe that you're doing IS moderation.
The point is that if someone is really hankering after a particular food, it's better to eat that food and find a way to make it fit in with their eating plan, rather than torturing themselves with abstenence, calling it "crack food" and themselves an addict and then binge eating on it the first time they're in a situation where they can't totally ban it from their environment. My personal experience with foods that I simply could not leave alone, was that to stop thinking of them as forbidden foods and allow myself to eat them when i want took away 95% of the desire to eat them, which is why there's currently half a chocolate bar in my fridge because I only wanted to eat half of it earlier as I'm on a cut, the other half I'll eat tomorrow or maybe this evening if I have spare calories for it AND really fancy eating it as opposed to anything else. In the past, I would have just compulsively eaten the whole chocolate bar because I saw it as forbidden food that was bad and I had to eat it when I got the chance... and trying to abstain from these foods just made the problem worse, not better.0 -
People tend to get pissed off when they hear they've been depriving themselves for nothing. To them, weight-loss takes a miracle and requires OBSCENE willpower! No one can be thin and not ever go to some extreme (diet, exercise or otherwise).
Yes, most of us got overweight by going crazy and/or being lazy etc, but I'm much happier and almost to where I was at my lowest when I was eating 15g of fat per meal with alli back in 2009. 15g of fat per meal is barely anything.. and I gained it all back when I stopped taking it, so that means it didn't work...
Now I get to have cookies, candy (in fact I was just looking to see if I could budget my kitkat in somewhere), ice cream etc. I may not have QUITE got my macros perfected yet.. but I surely don't feel deprived and thus I don't have "cheat days" or days where I pig out on junk all day because I'm going crazy. I'll never feel horrible for having some of something I like and that is a better feeling.0 -
People tend to get pissed off when they hear they've been depriving themselves for nothing. To them, weight-loss takes a miracle and requires OBSCENE willpower! No one can be thin and not ever go to some extreme (diet, exercise or otherwise).
Yes, most of us got overweight by going crazy and/or being lazy etc, but I'm much happier and almost to where I was at my lowest when I was eating 15g of fat per meal with alli back in 2009. 15g of fat per meal is barely anything.. and I gained it all back when I stopped taking it, so that means it didn't work...
Now I get to have cookies, candy (in fact I was just looking to see if I could budget my kitkat in somewhere), ice cream etc. I may not have QUITE got my macros perfected yet.. but I surely don't feel deprived and thus I don't have "cheat days" or days where I pig out on junk all day because I'm going crazy. I'll never feel horrible for having some of something I like and that is a better feeling.
me too.0 -
I think that for some people (maybe not all, so no point in getting all butthurt), they won't allow themselves any "treats" because they are punishing themselves for "being bad" (allowing themselves to gain weight).
When they're able to forgive themselves, they can eat the "forbidden" stuff in moderation.
Just something to ponder.0 -
I love these posts. You must eat EVERYTHING in moderation or you will necessarily fail... oh, you don't enjoy the temptation of having calorie-dense and unsatiating food in your house? Welp, you're going to fail, but moreover you're weak and gluttonous too! Not to mention, if you don't eat these foods on a regular basis, you will have no self control around them! I'm sure people mean well, but the ignorance in these posts is astounding, and to some extent I think these posts are just an excuse for IIFYM advocates to attack people who choose to cut weight without eating certain foods and tell them how wrong they.
Case in point, the folks in my office have an insatiable sweet tooth and our break room at times looks like a dessert buffet with all the things bring in to share. The suggestion that I can't control myself around donuts and other desserts in the break room simply because I don't eat donuts on a regular basis or buy them for my house is a complete fallacy; I carry on conversations with people eating donuts, cake, and a host of other desserts in the breakroom on a daily basis, without partaking of any myself. I'm not miserable or likely to binge, simply because I don't eat a lot of sweets; that may be you, but it's certainly not everyone, and attacking people for disagreeing with such a mindset is just silly. What you buy at the grocery store and stock your pantry with is completely separate from your willpower and your desire to eat certain foods.
That said, I have no problem with an "everything in moderation" approach; just stop pushing it on people and attacking them when they say they choose not to follow it when cutting weight.
if someone can take or leave something but chooses to leave it, then the OP isn't aimed at them
it's aimed at people who tend to binge on certain foods, then respond to that by total abstinence
no-one's shoving anything down anyone's throat, this is an internet forum you can choose which threads to read and not read. but I have been on both sides of the fence in this, i.e. someone who in the past couldn't leave certain foods alone, had to eat the whole pack, overate ridiculously on certain foods..... and I've also learned how not to do that. And having been on both sides of this fence, I like being able to eat what i want in sensible portion sizes without going OTT side of the fence a lot better. My first post on this thread I explained how I did that. and it wasn't abstinence. I post all of this with the intention of possibly helping someone else break out of a cycle of overeating and feeling guilty in response to certain foods, and total abstinence from those foods, and be able to learn how to enjoy those foods without overindulgence or guilt and still hit their calorie targets... I think it would be mean not to share that experience, don't you think?
And I suppose my point is that there are many foods that, if said foods are just lying around, many people will tend to over-consume them; not necessarily in terms of a caloric surplus, but in terms of eating "more than they objectively want to eat" of said food. I personally don't see the harm in avoiding those foods, at least when it comes to having a stockpile of them in your house, and I'm not convinced that's an unhealthy mentality to have.
You don't have to declare a war against those foods and avoid them entirely or avoid them for the rest of your life, but at the same time that doesn't mean you must buy them and consume them regularly. For instance, I tend to over-consume Quest bars if I have a box of them sitting in the pantry. I'll rationalize it by still hitting my macros and calories for the day, but I'll do so through eating multiple Quest bars instead of whole foods, leaving me operating and feeling less than 100%. Have I eliminated Quest bars entirely? No, they're delicious and fit my target macros. Do I buy them and eat them on a regular basis to stave off a binge? No, I don't stock them in the pantry, because I don't want the temptation to use them as meal substitutes. Besides, plenty of things are delicious and my life doesn't revolve around Quest bars. It's just food.
When you say people aren't shoving anything down others throats...Thats disordered eating BTW. It's a mentality thing. I found that if I don't have something I enjoy in the house, I think about it all day long. So now, instead of obsessing over Ben and Jerrys but refusing to have it in the house, I have some but only on lift nights. I'll eat a pint within a week. It's my reward system for a day well spent.
Telling someone they have an eating disorder because they choose not to stock Reese's peanut butter cups in their house isn't shoving an "everything in moderation" down people's throats? I don't stock my pantry with candy either, nor do I obsess over it or think about it all day long. If I did stock my pantry with candy, odds are I'd eat more candy on a weekly basis. However, that's not my goal, so I don't stock my pantry with such foods. I'm failing to see where the problem is.
Mainly this ^^^^^^ especially the last part (although not sure I would call it an eating disorder).0 -
SMH
Now another person new to the forums is going to run to the market and stock up on cookies, icecream, soda and chips, all because they were told they could and SHOULD eat them in moderation.
2 months from now they are going to be just as frustrated as they were the day they started MFP.
Some people have to learn new behaviors and get their weight and body fat down to a point that they understand what will happen to them if they binge and know it is not worth it.
Until that day comes, they need to cut the foods out of their life they are incapable of moderating.
To shame people that can not moderate food is bullying them.......period.........some of us have things we are incapable of moderating, and we have to abstain from them. I have not died yet from not having a drink of alcohol in 6 years or a bag of Costco cashew pumpkin clusters.....cant moderate them....and I am not ashamed of that fact.
Bullying and shaming......a two for one sale on buzz words!
All words in moderation are okay.....THERE ARE NO BAD WORDS! :happy:0 -
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All words in moderation are okay.....THERE ARE NO BAD WORDS! :happy:
I can think of a few!!! lol0 -
All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...
There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.
Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.
You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...
Rubbish. Alcohol is a drug, an addictive substance, food is not.
Anyone can eat in moderation if you physically serve yourself reasonable portions of food.
Comments like this really irritate me. People with an alcohol addiction, or a drug addiction, receive sympathy and help. People that have an eating disorder such an anorexia or bulimia, receive sympathy and help. Turn that eating disorder round though, and make it someone that has a binge eating disorder, and suddenly that person doesn't deserve sympathy and help. In too many cases, they are just labelled as greedy or lacking self-control.
As someone that suffers from binge eating, I can't have certain foods in the house. Sometimes the whole 'eat it in moderation' thing works, but sometimes it doesn't. And if I do have a bit of an emotional munch, having the stuff readily available in the house is not good. Having to physically drive to the supermarket to buy things for my binge gives me a chance to put that in perspective.
To the OP; demonizing food on this forum is a problem, but so is the 'this is what works for me and so you should all do it' approach that so many here seem to have. You included.0 -
SMH
Now another person new to the forums is going to run to the market and stock up on cookies, icecream, soda and chips, all because they were told they could and SHOULD eat them in moderation.
2 months from now they are going to be just as frustrated as they were the day they started MFP.
Some people have to learn new behaviors and get their weight and body fat down to a point that they understand what will happen to them if they binge and know it is not worth it.
Until that day comes, they need to cut the foods out of their life they are incapable of moderating.
To shame people that can not moderate food is bullying them.......period.........some of us have things we are incapable of moderating, and we have to abstain from them. I have not died yet from not having a drink of alcohol in 6 years or a bag of Costco cashew pumpkin clusters.....cant moderate them....and I am not ashamed of that fact.
Bullying and shaming......a two for one sale on buzz words!
All words in moderation are okay.....THERE ARE NO BAD WORDS! :happy:
Are you "moderation-shaming"?0 -
I'ma go ahead and disagree opie, quantity is itself a quality.Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
I like Doritos. I love Doritos. I think I'm fonder of Doritos than of most people. I'm not fond of Doritos in moderation. I'm not fond of weighing them. I especially hate eating 12 doritos and calling it a treat.
I've tried it, I can do it, got the postcard and the t-shirt. It performs anilingus on simians.
It provides you with a taste of deliciousness, then ends abruptly with no substance to its promise. I won't even dignify it by calling it a tease, it's a taunt and an insult to my masculinity. When I eat Doritos, I'll eat a bag (a big one) washed down by a few beers. I won't do so every day, but every now and again is fine.
I will no more eat Doritos in moderation and call it a treat than I will eat boiled cauliflower and call it steak. They're two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.
But isn't that actually just one way to achieve moderation? You don't eat Doritos everyday, but you don't (apparently) cut them out of your diet completely.
And I don't read these sorts of posts (the OP) as saying you HAVE to eat everything (in moderation). Just that, if you do really love something and chose to eat it occasionally, it is possible to do so without ruining your entire diet. A bag of Doritos/Reeses cup/bowl of ice cream once a week isn't going to kill you, or make you suddenly gain 10 lbs.
Some people think that if they eat ANY of their "forbidden" foods, they have failed. We've all seen the posts "I ate a pizza last night - does this mean I'm doomed?" No, no it doesn't. You don't have to ditch the entire diet because of one meal, even if it put you over your calorie goal for that day (or even week).
This is, as far as I can tell, about long term sustainability. If you are miserable on your diet because you have cut out X and it makes you want to quit, then eat X. Just do it in moderation. Whether that means a few bites every day, or a minor binge once a week/month. Plan for it, log it, look long term. Your diet is about the totality of what you eat, not one single item.
If you are happy with your diet and you can sustain it long term doing whatever you are doing, then good for you! Don't change.
ftr: I do understand that some people need to cut some things out short term in order to "break the cycle". These people need to make sure they do have a plan in place for how they are going to re-introduce those items (if indeed they ever do) back into their regular diet. You can lose weight by going low carb, but you'll gain it all back again if you start back eating huge bowls of pasta everyday once you hit maintenance.
^^ read this it makes all kind of sense ^^0 -
I thought I locked him in my pantry, how did he get out??...... OR are there more than one??0 -
I am amazed that the words bully, shaming and addiction showed up in this thread. I am also surprised that somebody claimed science has not proven sugar addiction yet, but the claim is true.
Oh wait…..no. No, I am not amazed and surprised.0 -
I am amazed that the words bully, shaming and addiction showed up in this thread. I am also surprised that somebody claimed science has not proven sugar addiction yet, but the claim is true.
Oh wait…..no. No, I am not amazed and surprised.
Yes but they have not been on every post - we are using those words in moderation!0 -
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All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...
There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.
Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.
You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...
alcohol is an addictive drug which causes physiological changes in the body that leads to physiological dependence
food is something that's supposed to be in your body because that's how animals evolved
not the same
I don't know if I should even bother responding, because wow... but here goes nothing.
Food addiction -- Compulsive overeating, also sometimes called food addiction, is characterized by the compulsive eating of food. Professionals address this with either a behavior therapy model or a food-addiction model.
And I highly doubt our ancestors ate twinkies and potato chips to "evolve" as you put it. The high salt, high sugar foods of today are an overload to our systems and have been PROVEN to release pleasure neurotransmitters in our brain.
Did you miss the bit earlier in the thread where I said I used to have the same food addiction that you describe? I originally posted on this thread to describe my experiences and how I overcame them, with a view to hopefully helping others do the same thing.
and there are two types of addiction. psychological and physiological. pretty much anything can cause psychological addiction, and the answer isn't always total abstinence. physiological addiction actually changes how your body works, and going cold turkey from alcoholism can actually kill the person, as in the withrawal from alcohol can cause fits severe enough to kill the person. Is that remotely similar to someone who can't stop playing video games or can't stop using pornography or can't stop eating jaffa cakes? No.
also, I don't know why you took my post as "wow" because I didn't say anything unkind or anything untrue. I'm not going to start putting any psychological addiction in the same category as physiological addiction like alcohol or heroin, because they're not the same thing at all.
Also, when I was a kid I was addicted to a particular computer game. I have managed to overcome that psychological addiction without giving up computer games for the rest of my life, i can do computer/smartphone games in moderation these days. Even candy crush. Psychological addictions don't have to mean abstinence for the rest of your life, and the attempt at abstinence may even be counterproductive long term. Learning how to enjoy life's pleasures, especially food and sex, without harming yourself in the process (i.e. avoiding obesity, nutritional deficiency, STDs and unwanted pregnancy) is a really important life skill.
And as for evolution and the release of neurotransmitters in the brain in response to eating food, YES this happens with natural foods that our ancestors would have eaten, like fruit and honey. Because it's normal human physiology. And you get them in response to sex, playing sport and all kinds of other pleasurable activities. Why? Because Homo erectus didn't have enough frontal lobe to realise that having sex, hunting animals for sport and eating foods that have lots of calories are important things to do to stay alive and keep the species growing, so those who found those activities pleasurable because they released certain neurotransmitters into the brain survived better and left their genes in the population, and so their descendents, Homo sapiens, also find these activities pleasurable and have the same neurotransmitter responses in their brain. So to sum up, the reason why people like sweet tasting foods and find it hard to eat them in moderation is because the Homo erectus people who liked to eat ALL the honey and all the sweet tasting fruits when he or she could get them won at natural selection.
quoting for emphasis.0 -
ut what you're arguing for is moderation, and what the OP is advising people to do. No-one is saying that you MUST buy any particular food or eat it constantly (or if they are then I missed that post and they're in the minority). The argument is against what i bolded in your post above, i.e. total abstinence for a strongly desired food (which is punctuated by unplanned binge eating), which you said you don't agree with either. What you describe that you're doing IS moderation.
The point is that if someone is really hankering after a particular food, it's better to eat that food and find a way to make it fit in with their eating plan, rather than torturing themselves with abstenence, calling it "crack food" and themselves an addict and then binge eating on it the first time they're in a situation where they can't totally ban it from their environment. My personal experience with foods that I simply could not leave alone, was that to stop thinking of them as forbidden foods and allow myself to eat them when i want took away 95% of the desire to eat them, which is why there's currently half a chocolate bar in my fridge because I only wanted to eat half of it earlier as I'm on a cut, the other half I'll eat tomorrow or maybe this evening if I have spare calories for it AND really fancy eating it as opposed to anything else. In the past, I would have just compulsively eaten the whole chocolate bar because I saw it as forbidden food that was bad and I had to eat it when I got the chance... and trying to abstain from these foods just made the problem worse, not better.
Except when someone said they don't buy Reese's cups for their pantry because if they do they tend to overeat Reese's cups, they were told by the OP that they have an eating disorder (or disordered eating... difference?). I'm not even a huge fan of Reese's cups but if you put a giant bag of them in the cupboard, I'm likely to snack on several every week (assuming I'm not heavily limiting my carb intake) and it would make it quite a bit easier for me to slip up on any given day. I see no harm in people making a conscious choice to avoid certain foods when it comes to what they keep in their pantry; for that matter, we all do this on a weekly basis, because I don't know anyone's house that has every type of food stocked up.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't "get it" when it comes to bingeing, obsessing over certain foods and the like. I'm pretty good at eating the same over and over again, day in and day out (a perk when it comes to logging!) and I don't know that I've ever obsessed over specific foods. And at the end of the day, I suspect we largely agree on the subject. And perhaps had the OP responded by telling that person their decision not to purchase Reese's cups is fine provided they don't feel deprived/miserable without Reese's cups in the pantry, rather than telling them they have an eating disorder as diagnosed by a random guy on the Internet, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. :laugh:0 -
All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...
There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.
Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.
You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...
Rubbish. Alcohol is a drug, an addictive substance, food is not.
Anyone can eat in moderation if you physically serve yourself reasonable portions of food.
Comments like this really irritate me. People with an alcohol addiction, or a drug addiction, receive sympathy and help. People that have an eating disorder such an anorexia or bulimia, receive sympathy and help. Turn that eating disorder round though, and make it someone that has a binge eating disorder, and suddenly that person doesn't deserve sympathy and help. In too many cases, they are just labelled as greedy or lacking self-control.
As someone that suffers from binge eating, I can't have certain foods in the house. Sometimes the whole 'eat it in moderation' thing works, but sometimes it doesn't. And if I do have a bit of an emotional munch, having the stuff readily available in the house is not good. Having to physically drive to the supermarket to buy things for my binge gives me a chance to put that in perspective.
To the OP; demonizing food on this forum is a problem, but so is the 'this is what works for me and so you should all do it' approach that so many here seem to have. You included.
If food weren't an issue, groups like Overeater's Anonymous wouldn't exist. Binge Eating Disorder is an actual eating disorder and it's in the DSM and probably the ICD. It's a real issue and I understand why you are offended.
I've had eating disorders from anorexia, to bulimia to overeating. I know what you're talking about and I can see that the ignorance on the topic can be infuriating.
However, some people just aren't educated on the matter, and that isn't their fault. Some people don't believe any mental illness exists; those people are also infuriating, but there is no arguing with them.
I can't keep problem foods around either. If I become depressed, the only thing that makes me happy is food and no, I DON'T have control over it. I also have recurring episodes of depression so it's an issue.
So I understand "no moderation" on certain foods. I do that as well! I don't know if I'll ever eat french fries again. If that's what it takes to keep me at a healthy weight, that's what I'll do!
I'm glad it works for some people! That's fantastic. But there literally are people that CAN NOT do this without going overboard. If they could, they wouldn't have a diagnosable mental illness.
/rant.0 -
I do have trigger foods that I don't keep in the house, but that doesn't mean I can never have them. Potato chips are an example. I can't buy them at the store because I will sit down and binge. However I do occasionally purchase an individual portion bag. The convenience store is about a 1mi round trip walk, so if I want potato chips badly enough to get off my butt and walk to get them, and they will fit in my calorie limit for the day, then I have potato chips.
The same holds true for many of the foods I am prone to binge on if they are in the house.0 -
So far, this time losing weight I'm doing pretty good and I am also eating pretty much whatever I want. I have eliminated a few foods due to my thoughts that I'm a bit intolerant to them (ie they make me feel blorfy) but otherwise I'm enjoying plenty of fresh fruit, vegetables, lean protein, grains and things like Cheetos, a caramel now and then, a lindt truffle. The trick is that I log it all and have one now and then rather than all the time. I used to have a bunch of treats everyday, in fact they were no longer treats but staples of my diet. I'd eat cheese and crackers while making dinner, then not want to eat...how silly is that? I now figure I can eat whatever I want as long as it fits into my day and will be enjoyed. I think that this is the key to making this a life change - rather than a diet.0
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