Everything in moderation

asdowe13

Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.

I'ma go ahead and disagree opie, quantity is itself a quality.

I like Doritos. I love Doritos. I think I'm fonder of Doritos than of most people. I'm not fond of Doritos in moderation. I'm not fond of weighing them. I especially hate eating 12 doritos and calling it a treat.

I've tried it, I can do it, got the postcard and the t-shirt. It performs anilingus on simians.

It provides you with a taste of deliciousness, then ends abruptly with no substance to its promise. I won't even dignify it by calling it a tease, it's a taunt and an insult to my masculinity. When I eat Doritos, I'll eat a bag (a big one) washed down by a few beers. I won't do so every day, but every now and again is fine.

I will no more eat Doritos in moderation and call it a treat than I will eat boiled cauliflower and call it steak. They're two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.

But isn't that actually just one way to achieve moderation? You don't eat Doritos everyday, but you don't (apparently) cut them out of your diet completely.


And I don't read these sorts of posts (the OP) as saying you HAVE to eat everything (in moderation). Just that, if you do really love something and chose to eat it occasionally, it is possible to do so without ruining your entire diet. A bag of Doritos/Reeses cup/bowl of ice cream once a week isn't going to kill you, or make you suddenly gain 10 lbs.

Some people think that if they eat ANY of their "forbidden" foods, they have failed. We've all seen the posts "I ate a pizza last night - does this mean I'm doomed?" No, no it doesn't. You don't have to ditch the entire diet because of one meal, even if it put you over your calorie goal for that day (or even week).

This is, as far as I can tell, about long term sustainability. If you are miserable on your diet because you have cut out X and it makes you want to quit, then eat X. Just do it in moderation. Whether that means a few bites every day, or a minor binge once a week/month. Plan for it, log it, look long term. Your diet is about the totality of what you eat, not one single item.

If you are happy with your diet and you can sustain it long term doing whatever you are doing, then good for you! Don't change.

ftr: I do understand that some people need to cut some things out short term in order to "break the cycle". These people need to make sure they do have a plan in place for how they are going to re-introduce those items (if indeed they ever do) back into their regular diet. You can lose weight by going low carb, but you'll gain it all back again if you start back eating huge bowls of pasta everyday once you hit maintenance.

^^ read this it makes all kind of sense ^^

asdowe13

I thought I locked him in my pantry, how did he get out??...... OR are there more than one??

nomeejerome

I am amazed that the words bully, shaming and addiction showed up in this thread. I am also surprised that somebody claimed science has not proven sugar addiction yet, but the claim is true.



Oh wait…..no. No, I am not amazed and surprised.

tennisdude2004

I am amazed that the words bully, shaming and addiction showed up in this thread. I am also surprised that somebody claimed science has not proven sugar addiction yet, but the claim is true.



Oh wait…..no. No, I am not amazed and surprised.

Yes but they have not been on every post - we are using those words in moderation!

Derpes

Hornsby

All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...

There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.


Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.

You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...

alcohol is an addictive drug which causes physiological changes in the body that leads to physiological dependence

food is something that's supposed to be in your body because that's how animals evolved

not the same

I don't know if I should even bother responding, because wow... but here goes nothing.

Food addiction -- Compulsive overeating, also sometimes called food addiction, is characterized by the compulsive eating of food. Professionals address this with either a behavior therapy model or a food-addiction model.

And I highly doubt our ancestors ate twinkies and potato chips to "evolve" as you put it. The high salt, high sugar foods of today are an overload to our systems and have been PROVEN to release pleasure neurotransmitters in our brain.

Did you miss the bit earlier in the thread where I said I used to have the same food addiction that you describe? I originally posted on this thread to describe my experiences and how I overcame them, with a view to hopefully helping others do the same thing.

and there are two types of addiction. psychological and physiological. pretty much anything can cause psychological addiction, and the answer isn't always total abstinence. physiological addiction actually changes how your body works, and going cold turkey from alcoholism can actually kill the person, as in the withrawal from alcohol can cause fits severe enough to kill the person. Is that remotely similar to someone who can't stop playing video games or can't stop using pornography or can't stop eating jaffa cakes? No.

also, I don't know why you took my post as "wow" because I didn't say anything unkind or anything untrue. I'm not going to start putting any psychological addiction in the same category as physiological addiction like alcohol or heroin, because they're not the same thing at all.

Also, when I was a kid I was addicted to a particular computer game. I have managed to overcome that psychological addiction without giving up computer games for the rest of my life, i can do computer/smartphone games in moderation these days. Even candy crush. Psychological addictions don't have to mean abstinence for the rest of your life, and the attempt at abstinence may even be counterproductive long term. Learning how to enjoy life's pleasures, especially food and sex, without harming yourself in the process (i.e. avoiding obesity, nutritional deficiency, STDs and unwanted pregnancy) is a really important life skill.

And as for evolution and the release of neurotransmitters in the brain in response to eating food, YES this happens with natural foods that our ancestors would have eaten, like fruit and honey. Because it's normal human physiology. And you get them in response to sex, playing sport and all kinds of other pleasurable activities. Why? Because Homo erectus didn't have enough frontal lobe to realise that having sex, hunting animals for sport and eating foods that have lots of calories are important things to do to stay alive and keep the species growing, so those who found those activities pleasurable because they released certain neurotransmitters into the brain survived better and left their genes in the population, and so their descendents, Homo sapiens, also find these activities pleasurable and have the same neurotransmitter responses in their brain. So to sum up, the reason why people like sweet tasting foods and find it hard to eat them in moderation is because the Homo erectus people who liked to eat ALL the honey and all the sweet tasting fruits when he or she could get them won at natural selection.

quoting for emphasis.

parkscs

ut what you're arguing for is moderation, and what the OP is advising people to do. No-one is saying that you MUST buy any particular food or eat it constantly (or if they are then I missed that post and they're in the minority). The argument is against what i bolded in your post above, i.e. total abstinence for a strongly desired food (which is punctuated by unplanned binge eating), which you said you don't agree with either. What you describe that you're doing IS moderation.

The point is that if someone is really hankering after a particular food, it's better to eat that food and find a way to make it fit in with their eating plan, rather than torturing themselves with abstenence, calling it "crack food" and themselves an addict and then binge eating on it the first time they're in a situation where they can't totally ban it from their environment. My personal experience with foods that I simply could not leave alone, was that to stop thinking of them as forbidden foods and allow myself to eat them when i want took away 95% of the desire to eat them, which is why there's currently half a chocolate bar in my fridge because I only wanted to eat half of it earlier as I'm on a cut, the other half I'll eat tomorrow or maybe this evening if I have spare calories for it AND really fancy eating it as opposed to anything else. In the past, I would have just compulsively eaten the whole chocolate bar because I saw it as forbidden food that was bad and I had to eat it when I got the chance... and trying to abstain from these foods just made the problem worse, not better.

Except when someone said they don't buy Reese's cups for their pantry because if they do they tend to overeat Reese's cups, they were told by the OP that they have an eating disorder (or disordered eating... difference?). I'm not even a huge fan of Reese's cups but if you put a giant bag of them in the cupboard, I'm likely to snack on several every week (assuming I'm not heavily limiting my carb intake) and it would make it quite a bit easier for me to slip up on any given day. I see no harm in people making a conscious choice to avoid certain foods when it comes to what they keep in their pantry; for that matter, we all do this on a weekly basis, because I don't know anyone's house that has every type of food stocked up.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't "get it" when it comes to bingeing, obsessing over certain foods and the like. I'm pretty good at eating the same over and over again, day in and day out (a perk when it comes to logging!) and I don't know that I've ever obsessed over specific foods. And at the end of the day, I suspect we largely agree on the subject. And perhaps had the OP responded by telling that person their decision not to purchase Reese's cups is fine provided they don't feel deprived/miserable without Reese's cups in the pantry, rather than telling them they have an eating disorder as diagnosed by a random guy on the Internet, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. :laugh:

1daylate1dollarshort

All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...

There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.


Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.

You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...

Rubbish. Alcohol is a drug, an addictive substance, food is not.

Anyone can eat in moderation if you physically serve yourself reasonable portions of food.

Comments like this really irritate me. People with an alcohol addiction, or a drug addiction, receive sympathy and help. People that have an eating disorder such an anorexia or bulimia, receive sympathy and help. Turn that eating disorder round though, and make it someone that has a binge eating disorder, and suddenly that person doesn't deserve sympathy and help. In too many cases, they are just labelled as greedy or lacking self-control.

As someone that suffers from binge eating, I can't have certain foods in the house. Sometimes the whole 'eat it in moderation' thing works, but sometimes it doesn't. And if I do have a bit of an emotional munch, having the stuff readily available in the house is not good. Having to physically drive to the supermarket to buy things for my binge gives me a chance to put that in perspective.

To the OP; demonizing food on this forum is a problem, but so is the 'this is what works for me and so you should all do it' approach that so many here seem to have. You included.

If food weren't an issue, groups like Overeater's Anonymous wouldn't exist. Binge Eating Disorder is an actual eating disorder and it's in the DSM and probably the ICD. It's a real issue and I understand why you are offended.

I've had eating disorders from anorexia, to bulimia to overeating. I know what you're talking about and I can see that the ignorance on the topic can be infuriating.

However, some people just aren't educated on the matter, and that isn't their fault. Some people don't believe any mental illness exists; those people are also infuriating, but there is no arguing with them.

I can't keep problem foods around either. If I become depressed, the only thing that makes me happy is food and no, I DON'T have control over it. I also have recurring episodes of depression so it's an issue.

So I understand "no moderation" on certain foods. I do that as well! I don't know if I'll ever eat french fries again. If that's what it takes to keep me at a healthy weight, that's what I'll do!

I'm glad it works for some people! That's fantastic. But there literally are people that CAN NOT do this without going overboard. If they could, they wouldn't have a diagnosable mental illness.

/rant.

scubasuenc

I do have trigger foods that I don't keep in the house, but that doesn't mean I can never have them. Potato chips are an example. I can't buy them at the store because I will sit down and binge. However I do occasionally purchase an individual portion bag. The convenience store is about a 1mi round trip walk, so if I want potato chips badly enough to get off my butt and walk to get them, and they will fit in my calorie limit for the day, then I have potato chips.

The same holds true for many of the foods I am prone to binge on if they are in the house.

rocketblaster

So far, this time losing weight I'm doing pretty good and I am also eating pretty much whatever I want. I have eliminated a few foods due to my thoughts that I'm a bit intolerant to them (ie they make me feel blorfy) but otherwise I'm enjoying plenty of fresh fruit, vegetables, lean protein, grains and things like Cheetos, a caramel now and then, a lindt truffle. The trick is that I log it all and have one now and then rather than all the time. I used to have a bunch of treats everyday, in fact they were no longer treats but staples of my diet. I'd eat cheese and crackers while making dinner, then not want to eat...how silly is that? I now figure I can eat whatever I want as long as it fits into my day and will be enjoyed. I think that this is the key to making this a life change - rather than a diet.

tennisdude2004

All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...

There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.


Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.

You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...

alcohol is an addictive drug which causes physiological changes in the body that leads to physiological dependence

food is something that's supposed to be in your body because that's how animals evolved

not the same

I don't know if I should even bother responding, because wow... but here goes nothing.

Food addiction -- Compulsive overeating, also sometimes called food addiction, is characterized by the compulsive eating of food. Professionals address this with either a behavior therapy model or a food-addiction model.

And I highly doubt our ancestors ate twinkies and potato chips to "evolve" as you put it. The high salt, high sugar foods of today are an overload to our systems and have been PROVEN to release pleasure neurotransmitters in our brain.

Did you miss the bit earlier in the thread where I said I used to have the same food addiction that you describe? I originally posted on this thread to describe my experiences and how I overcame them, with a view to hopefully helping others do the same thing.

and there are two types of addiction. psychological and physiological. pretty much anything can cause psychological addiction, and the answer isn't always total abstinence. physiological addiction actually changes how your body works, and going cold turkey from alcoholism can actually kill the person, as in the withrawal from alcohol can cause fits severe enough to kill the person. Is that remotely similar to someone who can't stop playing video games or can't stop using pornography or can't stop eating jaffa cakes? No.

also, I don't know why you took my post as "wow" because I didn't say anything unkind or anything untrue. I'm not going to start putting any psychological addiction in the same category as physiological addiction like alcohol or heroin, because they're not the same thing at all.

Also, when I was a kid I was addicted to a particular computer game. I have managed to overcome that psychological addiction without giving up computer games for the rest of my life, i can do computer/smartphone games in moderation these days. Even candy crush. Psychological addictions don't have to mean abstinence for the rest of your life, and the attempt at abstinence may even be counterproductive long term. Learning how to enjoy life's pleasures, especially food and sex, without harming yourself in the process (i.e. avoiding obesity, nutritional deficiency, STDs and unwanted pregnancy) is a really important life skill.

And as for evolution and the release of neurotransmitters in the brain in response to eating food, YES this happens with natural foods that our ancestors would have eaten, like fruit and honey. Because it's normal human physiology. And you get them in response to sex, playing sport and all kinds of other pleasurable activities. Why? Because Homo erectus didn't have enough frontal lobe to realise that having sex, hunting animals for sport and eating foods that have lots of calories are important things to do to stay alive and keep the species growing, so those who found those activities pleasurable because they released certain neurotransmitters into the brain survived better and left their genes in the population, and so their descendents, Homo sapiens, also find these activities pleasurable and have the same neurotransmitter responses in their brain. So to sum up, the reason why people like sweet tasting foods and find it hard to eat them in moderation is because the Homo erectus people who liked to eat ALL the honey and all the sweet tasting fruits when he or she could get them won at natural selection.

quoting for emphasis.

I think the point that is being missed in this highlighted statement is the assumption that everyone thinks and reacts to mental stimuli (if that is the correct term) the same.

What maybe addictive for one person may not be for another. Hence why most of the population can function normally whilst including alcohol into the lives and others cannot.

Seems a bit strange that we cannot accept that food can be addictive!

Elsie_Brownraisin

Yes, that may be the case for YOU, op.

But for many people, we have self control issues.
That means if I buy a small bit of cheese, I'll eat it and it'll all be good.
If I buy a much better value large bit of cheese, I'll eat the whole 2000 calories. Not so good as that much fat doesn't really fit in my goals.

I'm the same with cheese and good bread. If it's there, I will keep going back to it. I'll have some if the rest of my family are, so that it's gone and not hanging around the house. I don't view it as 'evil' or anything, I just really, really like it. Although I have quite a high calorie limit, I don't have enough for a whole camembert on a regular basis.

I know I have turned a corner with some things, because I can keep ice cream in the freezer for ages and there's always crisps and biscuits in for my son. I can go days without eating any of them.

But cheese...nope. It depresses me to weigh a portion of stilton.

DamePiglet

I thought I locked him in my pantry, how did he get out??...... OR are there more than one??

The bacon cake let him out. Sneaky, sneaky bacon cake!!!

richardheath

I think that for some people (maybe not all, so no point in getting all butthurt), they won't allow themselves any "treats" because they are punishing themselves for "being bad" (allowing themselves to gain weight).

When they're able to forgive themselves, they can eat the "forbidden" stuff in moderation.

Just something to ponder.

I agree with this. It does sometimes seem to be the case - especially with some of the cleanses/detoxes/fasts that go on.

everforever8

There are just some foods that are terrible trigger foods. Bread happens to be one of them for me. On top of that, I have gallstones anyway, so I had to eliminate it from my diet altogether. I also have to severely limit dairy and greasy foods to avoid gallbladder pain.
There are some people though (me being one of them) who get seriously addicted to food to the point where "moderation" doesn't actually work. There is a reason why so many people suffer from obesity. That crap is addicting! Junk food manufacturers KNOW that. That's how they keep you coming back for more. There's a reason why CocaCola considers people who drink more than 3 cans a day "users".

it's a lot more complicated than "oh, I'll just eat in moderation" because several people eat beyond full just like an alcoholic will drink far beyond 'buzzed'. There's a reason I lost almost 100 pounds and gained a significant amount back. There is no such thing as moderation for me.

FitnessLover001

I'm really good at controlling my junk food intake and alcoholic beverage intake --> If it's not in the house, I don't eat it!

verptwerp

shoot, gotta get to work ..... will have to catch up later :drinker:

kuolo

For those saying "that's great, but that doesn't work for me because I can't control myself",

And do you think when eating at at deficit when you're more likely to be suspectible to binge eating is a good time to try and address the issues?
Might it not be better, say, when you've reached your goal weight and are eating more?

Refined sugar is also an addictive drug, and numerous studies have proven this to be true.

Please provide just one that proves it is an addictive drug to humans.
And we're talking working the same way as an addictive drug, not the same way that people can get addicted to ANYTHING they enjoy.

I was waiting for someone to come back with this, you didn't disappoint me!

Just because something hasn't been scientifically proven (yet!) to be true, it doesn't mean it isn't. In the case of sugar addiction, I default to common sense. Besides, as far as the definition of addiction goes, sugar fits in there quite nicely. Just think of kids coming down off a sugar high!

So for me, I'm not going to wait until it's been proven, I'm going to be smart, do my health and well being a favor, and keep it out of my life. There are too many natural whole food "candies" out there to enjoy anyway. :happy:

You're the one saying there are studies about the addictiveness of refined sugar, so could you provide a link to one? Not being snarky, just asking for a link.

On my phone so can't post links but just google 'rats sugar cocaine' and you will find studies.

Sugar is more addictive in rats than cocaine. Yes we're not rats but considering how much of our medical science comes from these kinds of tests this is probably worth something.

Might revisit this with some links when have access to a computer.

nomeejerome

All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...

There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.


Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.

You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...

Rubbish. Alcohol is a drug, an addictive substance, food is not.

Anyone can eat in moderation if you physically serve yourself reasonable portions of food.

Comments like this really irritate me. People with an alcohol addiction, or a drug addiction, receive sympathy and help. People that have an eating disorder such an anorexia or bulimia, receive sympathy and help. Turn that eating disorder round though, and make it someone that has a binge eating disorder, and suddenly that person doesn't deserve sympathy and help. In too many cases, they are just labelled as greedy or lacking self-control.

As someone that suffers from binge eating, I can't have certain foods in the house. Sometimes the whole 'eat it in moderation' thing works, but sometimes it doesn't. And if I do have a bit of an emotional munch, having the stuff readily available in the house is not good. Having to physically drive to the supermarket to buy things for my binge gives me a chance to put that in perspective.

To the OP; demonizing food on this forum is a problem, but so is the 'this is what works for me and so you should all do it' approach that so many here seem to have. You included.

If food weren't an issue, groups like Overeater's Anonymous wouldn't exist. Binge Eating Disorder is an actual eating disorder and it's in the DSM and probably the ICD. It's a real issue and I understand why you are offended.

I've had eating disorders from anorexia, to bulimia to overeating. I know what you're talking about and I can see that the ignorance on the topic can be infuriating.

However, some people just aren't educated on the matter, and that isn't their fault. Some people don't believe any mental illness exists; those people are also infuriating, but there is no arguing with them.

I can't keep problem foods around either. If I become depressed, the only thing that makes me happy is food and no, I DON'T have control over it. I also have recurring episodes of depression so it's an issue.

So I understand "no moderation" on certain foods. I do that as well! I don't know if I'll ever eat french fries again. If that's what it takes to keep me at a healthy weight, that's what I'll do!

I'm glad it works for some people! That's fantastic. But there literally are people that CAN NOT do this without going overboard. If they could, they wouldn't have a diagnosable mental illness.

/rant.

BED is not as common as people think it is today. There may be other diagnosis that capture other issues (food and non-food related), but overeating (not diagnosable) is far more common than true BED.

neandermagnon

ut what you're arguing for is moderation, and what the OP is advising people to do. No-one is saying that you MUST buy any particular food or eat it constantly (or if they are then I missed that post and they're in the minority). The argument is against what i bolded in your post above, i.e. total abstinence for a strongly desired food (which is punctuated by unplanned binge eating), which you said you don't agree with either. What you describe that you're doing IS moderation.

The point is that if someone is really hankering after a particular food, it's better to eat that food and find a way to make it fit in with their eating plan, rather than torturing themselves with abstenence, calling it "crack food" and themselves an addict and then binge eating on it the first time they're in a situation where they can't totally ban it from their environment. My personal experience with foods that I simply could not leave alone, was that to stop thinking of them as forbidden foods and allow myself to eat them when i want took away 95% of the desire to eat them, which is why there's currently half a chocolate bar in my fridge because I only wanted to eat half of it earlier as I'm on a cut, the other half I'll eat tomorrow or maybe this evening if I have spare calories for it AND really fancy eating it as opposed to anything else. In the past, I would have just compulsively eaten the whole chocolate bar because I saw it as forbidden food that was bad and I had to eat it when I got the chance... and trying to abstain from these foods just made the problem worse, not better.

Except when someone said they don't buy Reese's cups for their pantry because if they do they tend to overeat Reese's cups, they were told by the OP that they have an eating disorder (or disordered eating... difference?). I'm not even a huge fan of Reese's cups but if you put a giant bag of them in the cupboard, I'm likely to snack on several every week (assuming I'm not heavily limiting my carb intake) and it would make it quite a bit easier for me to slip up on any given day. I see no harm in people making a conscious choice to avoid certain foods when it comes to what they keep in their pantry; for that matter, we all do this on a weekly basis, because I don't know anyone's house that has every type of food stocked up.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't "get it" when it comes to bingeing, obsessing over certain foods and the like. I'm pretty good at eating the same over and over again, day in and day out (a perk when it comes to logging!) and I don't know that I've ever obsessed over specific foods. And at the end of the day, I suspect we largely agree on the subject. And perhaps had the OP responded by telling that person their decision not to purchase Reese's cups is fine provided they don't feel deprived/miserable without Reese's cups in the pantry, rather than telling them they have an eating disorder as diagnosed by a random guy on the Internet, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. :laugh:

I think you're right that without that comment we wouldn't be having this conversation.... maybe he knew something about that person from previous threads (as often happens here), or he misread something, or he sees eating disorders when they don't exist for some reason. In any case the overall message is what dame piglet said earlier in this thread (in about 15 words what took me several paragraphs.... lol I type too much lol)