Vegetarians found more unhealthy. Interesting article.
Replies
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Vegetarians tend to eat a lot of dairy. That stuff is terrible. Even the paleo crowd figured out to avoid it like the plague.
....... That's your conclusion from this study?
Seriously?0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
And did you do that for this study?
I did.0 -
Here's something I posted earlier on FB while discussing this article:
"That said, I'm not sure this study tells us a whole lot. It associates vegetarianism with a host of health problems.. but it's entirely possible causation is the other way. People with chronic health issues often look to their diet for a way out of it. People with nagging health issues, or who are prone to sickness, may turn to alternative diets like vegetarianism at a higher rate."0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
And did you do that for this study?
I did.
Nope, not yet, I got sidetracked. What did you find?0 -
All that article and the results suggested to me was what I have always thought.
All things in moderation, and in balance.0 -
Give it time. If you came to MFP to pick on those who are earlier on their journey than you, you probably ought to find a new site. This was me 2 years before that bike photo was taken, when i ate plenty of animal protein.
In all seriousness, you probably have a solid 20 pounds more muscle mass in this picture than you do currently. I can only assume that you lost all this mass because you did not do resistance training nor did you eat a high-protein diet while losing the weight.
Also: the vegan bodybuilder you posted is only recently vegan and was an admitted steroid-using meat-eating bodybuilder most of his life.0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
And did you do that for this study?
I did.
Nope, not yet, I got sidetracked. What did you find?
I found that the journal is open-access and author funded, and the authors of the study had no affiliations or funding that would be conflicting.0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
The problem with every pro-veg*n paper/study I've seen (regardless of credibility) is that they compare to the Standard American/Western Diet. That's a high bar when it comes to health. *eyeroll* I personally would be more interested in studies that compared whole food diets to whole food diets (ie - a proper vegetarian diet vs a proper Paleo diet).
That said, please remember your stated standards the next time The China Study or Forks Over Knives are cited in a conversation as support for veg*nism. I have no problem with the notion that there should be certain standards when citing research, just please make sure everyone is being held to the same ones.0 -
I was aware of the mental illness being more prevalent due to most vegetarians eating very low fat in general which causes chemical imbalances in the brain.
Interesting findings on the rest of the stuff.
I will stick with eating my meat, vegetables and fruit.
Absolutely agree with this. I was veg for 5 years and that's why I'm so mentally unstable. Getting better one bacon slice at a time.0 -
Everyone takes good and bad photos. Genetics and luck of the draw are a big factor in beauty too.Science FTW
[img][/img]
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The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
The problem with every pro-veg*n paper/study I've seen (regardless of credibility) is that they compare to the Standard American/Western Diet. That's a high bar when it comes to health. *eyeroll*
That said, please remember your stated standards the next time The China Study or Forks Over Knives are cited in a conversation as support for veg*nism.
Ummmmm, I do, that's why I brought up the point of looking into funding sources. The fact that I'm vegetarian has nothing to do with the fact that I know how to decide if a scientific article is credible. My Biology degree can take credit for that.0 -
I thought the original KFC was here in Utah.
That's at the original Kentucky Fried Chicken in Corbin, KY.I want to lighten the mood and point out that you are sitting next to Colonel Sanders?! Maybe it has just been a long day at work...but that makes me laugh!
That being said, I don't like KFC so I may be wrong.0 -
Eh, the brunette looks healthier to me.
Everyone takes good and bad photos. Genetics and luck of the draw are a big factor in beauty too.Science FTW
[img][/img]0 -
There is a class of vegetarians called "French fry vegetarians". When I was in college, a lot of my friends dabbled in vegetarianism and began living on cheese pizzas and vegetarian pastries. They were very unhealthy.
I've been a vegetarian (almost vegan) for 20 years. I'm over 50 now, my BMI is 21, my cholesterol is ideal, my blood pressure is as well. Next week, I'm doing the Hustle Up the Hancock (which I've done annually for the last 5 years.) I weight train seriously (one of my goals is to be a senior weight lifting competitor). I'd like to lose a few lbs to be able to competitive stairclimb which is why I'm here on MFP.
I'm not sure why discussions about vegetarianism become so contentious.
What you eat is your choice, what I eat is my choice.
If you feel good and you are where you want to be, I wish you well.
I hope people will wish me well in my choices.0 -
I thought the original KFC was here in Utah.
That's at the original Kentucky Fried Chicken in Corbin, KY.I want to lighten the mood and point out that you are sitting next to Colonel Sanders?! Maybe it has just been a long day at work...but that makes me laugh!
That being said, I don't like KFC so I may be wrong.
umm..
It is Kentucky Fried Chicken, not Utah Fried Chicken.0 -
Well, it's certainly not difficult to have more trouble getting the appropriate nutrients when you cut stuff out of your diet, so I'm not very surprised. Vegetarians have to work harder at balanced meals, and there are tons of vegetarians who seem to subsist on fries and white bread (especially young ones and those who are vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.) There's also a pretty substantial number of people with eating disorders who become "vegetarian" so it's easier to restrict food in public.
Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to their macro and micro nutrient intake and getting everything their bodies need, but vegetarians and other people who restrict their diets (paleo etc) need to be extra careful, obviously.
No need to throw paleo in with that. When you are eating an abundance of protein, fats, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds it is not hard at all to meet both your micronutrient and macronutrient needs.
One main reason my Doctor recommends the Paleo Lifestyle to his patients to get them off medications and just eating real food.
I should have known I'd get the paleo police on my case here...they're like Betelgeuse except you only have to say the word once for them to appear.
Yes, whole foods are good. Restricting your diet from a huge number of foods can be bad if you're not careful.
I'm not the Paleo police. I just don't appreciate people stating that you will be deficient eating this way.
Eating this way is what DID correct my deficiencies.0 -
Just one study, ya'll. Let's not get crazy.
Also, they don't factor in genetics to this.
But I will say that I found it most interesting about Mental Health. My sister was diagnosed bipolar & she was told to basically eat clean.
Yes. I am also bi-polar and no longer have symptoms unless I eat a lot of sugar or packaged foods. Which I don't any longer, so my moods are pretty stable.0 -
what about vegans?
Do you really want to open that can of worms???
http://www.science20.com/science_20/meat_eaters_are_more_tolerant_vegans-1179790 -
I thought the original KFC was here in Utah.
That's at the original Kentucky Fried Chicken in Corbin, KY.I want to lighten the mood and point out that you are sitting next to Colonel Sanders?! Maybe it has just been a long day at work...but that makes me laugh!
That being said, I don't like KFC so I may be wrong.
umm..
It is Kentucky Fried Chicken, not Utah Fried Chicken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC
The first franchise was in Salt Lake. But the colonel's original restaraunt was in Corbin.
Glad I googled it, because I was thinking the same thing.0 -
She's half right...the first franchise is in Utah. I've been there and the side of it says "World's first KFC" or something. The difference is the one in KY is Kentucky Fried Chicken and not KFC. Or something.
Edited for grammar0 -
Well, it's certainly not difficult to have more trouble getting the appropriate nutrients when you cut stuff out of your diet, so I'm not very surprised. Vegetarians have to work harder at balanced meals, and there are tons of vegetarians who seem to subsist on fries and white bread (especially young ones and those who are vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.) There's also a pretty substantial number of people with eating disorders who become "vegetarian" so it's easier to restrict food in public.
Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to their macro and micro nutrient intake and getting everything their bodies need, but vegetarians and other people who restrict their diets (paleo etc) need to be extra careful, obviously.
No need to throw paleo in with that. When you are eating an abundance of protein, fats, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds it is not hard at all to meet both your micronutrient and macronutrient needs.
One main reason my Doctor recommends the Paleo Lifestyle to his patients to get them off medications and just eating real food.
I should have known I'd get the paleo police on my case here...they're like Betelgeuse except you only have to say the word once for them to appear.
Yes, whole foods are good. Restricting your diet from a huge number of foods can be bad if you're not careful.
I'm not the Paleo police. I just don't appreciate people stating that you will be deficient eating this way.
Eating this way is what DID correct my deficiencies.
I certainly didn't say that you WOULD be deficient, I said that any diet restricting a large amount of foods can make it more DIFFICULT and requires more effort and planning than an unrestricted one. You really don't have to jump on the defensive about it. Any time you remove something from a diet (yes, even grains) you have to replace it with something and that takes some thought.
I'm not attacking anyone here, jeez. And people wonder why so much of the MFP population makes fun of people with militant ideas about food.0 -
I'm not going to chose a lifestyle based upon celebrities, but a few celebrity vegetarians:
Kristin Bell
Carrie Underwood
Anne Hathaway
Christy Turlington
Nigella is lovely.
There are also lovely vegetarians.0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
The problem with every pro-veg*n paper/study I've seen (regardless of credibility) is that they compare to the Standard American/Western Diet. That's a high bar when it comes to health. *eyeroll*
That said, please remember your stated standards the next time The China Study or Forks Over Knives are cited in a conversation as support for veg*nism.
Ummmmm, I do, that's why I brought up the point of looking into funding sources. The fact that I'm vegetarian has nothing to do with the fact that I know how to decide if a scientific article is credible. My Biology degree can take credit for that.
Sorry, my attempt to make that not so harsh didn't work too well. It was also more of a general thing, not saying that you, specifically, were doing that.
It just gets annoying when the veg*n evangelists (not necessarily you, specifically) use The China Study and Forks Over Knives (as well as other "resources" with obviously vegan agendas) as compelling evidence that veg*n is the way everyone should go, and then turn around and say that studies suggesting veg*n may not be so healthy, or ones supporting eating meat need to be self-funded, double-blind lab studies or they don't count, and anything less is "confirmation bias" or otherwise invalid, you know?0 -
Well, it's certainly not difficult to have more trouble getting the appropriate nutrients when you cut stuff out of your diet, so I'm not very surprised. Vegetarians have to work harder at balanced meals, and there are tons of vegetarians who seem to subsist on fries and white bread (especially young ones and those who are vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.) There's also a pretty substantial number of people with eating disorders who become "vegetarian" so it's easier to restrict food in public.
Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to their macro and micro nutrient intake and getting everything their bodies need, but vegetarians and other people who restrict their diets (paleo etc) need to be extra careful, obviously.
No need to throw paleo in with that. When you are eating an abundance of protein, fats, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds it is not hard at all to meet both your micronutrient and macronutrient needs.
One main reason my Doctor recommends the Paleo Lifestyle to his patients to get them off medications and just eating real food.
I should have known I'd get the paleo police on my case here...they're like Betelgeuse except you only have to say the word once for them to appear.
Yes, whole foods are good. Restricting your diet from a huge number of foods can be bad if you're not careful.
I'm not the Paleo police. I just don't appreciate people stating that you will be deficient eating this way.
Eating this way is what DID correct my deficiencies.
I certainly didn't say that you WOULD be deficient, I said that any diet restricting a large amount of foods can make it more DIFFICULT and requires more effort and planning than an unrestricted one. You really don't have to jump on the defensive about it. Any time you remove something from a diet (yes, even grains) you have to replace it with something and that takes some thought.
I'm not attacking anyone here, jeez. And people wonder why so much of the MFP population makes fun of people with militant ideas about food.
As someone else mentioned, when you remove dairy, grains and legumes from your way of eating you replace it with fruits and vegetables that are more nutrient dense naturally.
It is damn near impossible to be nutrient deficient with eating this way. Grains and beans are not the nutritious items they are portrayed to be unless they are soaked and sprouted and fermented.
Anytime you have to heavily process something to make it edible, then add back in nutrients that were stripped out is not something I want to put in my body any longer.
I want to eat something that I can kill and eat (yes I like raw and nearly raw meat), pluck it out of the ground or pick off a tree and eat it. Whether I cook said items or not is up to me, but I prefer to eat stuff that I can eat without cooking it.
Raw liver, spinach salad and a bowl of berries is a grand meal to me and very nutrient dense.0 -
The study was not from that magazine the study was out of Austria which I don't think has a big corporate meat industry.There are many more university and hospital studies that say the opposite. Plus, you have to find out who funds that magazine and who funds the person or organization that wrote the article. There's a lot of money spent every DAY by the cattle and dairy industries to discredit people who promote not eating their products. It usually comes down to economics. And big corporate concerns don't want you messing with their profit whether it's animal products or other consumer goods.
Scientific journals can have backers that want to promote certain studies over others, and meat can be imported, so it makes sense to look at where the funding came from.
The problem with every pro-veg*n paper/study I've seen (regardless of credibility) is that they compare to the Standard American/Western Diet. That's a high bar when it comes to health. *eyeroll*
That said, please remember your stated standards the next time The China Study or Forks Over Knives are cited in a conversation as support for veg*nism.
Ummmmm, I do, that's why I brought up the point of looking into funding sources. The fact that I'm vegetarian has nothing to do with the fact that I know how to decide if a scientific article is credible. My Biology degree can take credit for that.
Sorry, my attempt to make that not so harsh didn't work too well. It was also more of a general thing, not saying that you, specifically, were doing that.
It just gets annoying when the veg*n evangelists (not necessarily you, specifically) use The China Study and Forks Over Knives (as well as other "resources" with obviously vegan agendas) as compelling evidence that veg*n is the way everyone should go, and then turn around and say that studies suggesting veg*n may not be so healthy, or ones supporting eating meat need to be self-funded, double-blind lab studies or they don't count, and anything less is "confirmation bias" or otherwise invalid, you know?
Yea, I get it. I had to delete a couple sentences because I'm not holier-than-thou, and get defensive when people just assume I am. But I agree, people need to be more educated on how to take in information, decide if its valid, and go from there without getting evangelical. Taking life THAT seriously is just a recipe for unhappiness.0 -
I thought the original KFC was here in Utah.
That's at the original Kentucky Fried Chicken in Corbin, KY.I want to lighten the mood and point out that you are sitting next to Colonel Sanders?! Maybe it has just been a long day at work...but that makes me laugh!
That being said, I don't like KFC so I may be wrong.
umm..
It is Kentucky Fried Chicken, not Utah Fried Chicken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC
The first franchise was in Salt Lake. But the colonel's original restaraunt was in Corbin.
Glad I googled it, because I was thinking the same thing.
:laugh: glad we could get that cleared up in this thread0 -
There 2 types of vegetarians.. those that eat right ( vegetables, no dairy, no excessive carbs) and those who just don't want to eat meat.. I know both types.. My friend is a vegetarian and she hates vegetables.. so naturally, she is overweight because all she eats is processed junk food and dairy. My sister in law is a vegetarian, and you don't get any healthier then her... she takes really good care of her body and eats the way man was intended to eat... If your a vegetarian, you have to learn how to get your protein.... and in most cases its from fish and beans.. But there are unhealthy meat eaters and vegetarians, its all about choices in food.
Fish isn't vegetarian.
However, I do agree with you that there are definitely two types of vegetarians; the ones that pay attention to proper nutrition and adequate protein, and those who don't. It truly makes a huge difference in a lot of the health issues that can happen, but don't have to happen.
As with ANY diet though, people can be negligent and become deficient in one or more nutrients whether they choose to eat meat or not. I know people who eat meat that are severely anaemic, yet I'm vegetarian and my iron levels are perfect. Any diet is capable of acquiring deficiencies if it's unbalanced. It really depends on each individual's choices.0 -
I got all my health problems as a meat/dairy etc eater.
Lost about 30kg on a vegetarian, then vegan diet.
Have had no problems with my health since, have a lot better skin, my hair is shiny..
And im just an a lot happier person.
I got all my health problems as a SAD eater and by eating crap food and grains.
I've lost about 20lbs on a Primal diet and still eat ample meat and some dairy.
I've also been healing my body through it. My skin is clearer than it has ever been, my cholesterol numbers are better than ever, my mood is more stable, it's easier to eat less food, among other things.
Eating meat is the least of the problems with the Standard American/Western Diet. That's the thing that nearly all whole-foods based diets have in common and why you can get pretty much the same results regardless of whether you go the Paleo or the Veg*n route. It's not "meat" that's the problem, it's all the other garbage that's put into the food supply, and the way the animals used for meat are raised (the CAFO environment destroys a large amount of the beneficial qualities of the meat, because livestock like cows and pigs aren't meant to eat grain or be in such cramped environments).0 -
Well, it's certainly not difficult to have more trouble getting the appropriate nutrients when you cut stuff out of your diet, so I'm not very surprised. Vegetarians have to work harder at balanced meals, and there are tons of vegetarians who seem to subsist on fries and white bread (especially young ones and those who are vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.) There's also a pretty substantial number of people with eating disorders who become "vegetarian" so it's easier to restrict food in public.
Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to their macro and micro nutrient intake and getting everything their bodies need, but vegetarians and other people who restrict their diets (paleo etc) need to be extra careful, obviously.
No need to throw paleo in with that. When you are eating an abundance of protein, fats, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds it is not hard at all to meet both your micronutrient and macronutrient needs.
One main reason my Doctor recommends the Paleo Lifestyle to his patients to get them off medications and just eating real food.
I should have known I'd get the paleo police on my case here...they're like Betelgeuse except you only have to say the word once for them to appear.
Yes, whole foods are good. Restricting your diet from a huge number of foods can be bad if you're not careful.
I'm not the Paleo police. I just don't appreciate people stating that you will be deficient eating this way.
Eating this way is what DID correct my deficiencies.
I certainly didn't say that you WOULD be deficient, I said that any diet restricting a large amount of foods can make it more DIFFICULT and requires more effort and planning than an unrestricted one. You really don't have to jump on the defensive about it. Any time you remove something from a diet (yes, even grains) you have to replace it with something and that takes some thought.
I'm not attacking anyone here, jeez. And people wonder why so much of the MFP population makes fun of people with militant ideas about food.
As someone else mentioned, when you remove dairy, grains and legumes from your way of eating you replace it with fruits and vegetables that are more nutrient dense naturally.
It is damn near impossible to be nutrient deficient with eating this way. Grains and beans are not the nutritious items they are portrayed to be unless they are soaked and sprouted and fermented.
Anytime you have to heavily process something to make it edible, then add back in nutrients that were stripped out is not something I want to put in my body any longer.
I want to eat something that I can kill and eat (yes I like raw and nearly raw meat), pluck it out of the ground or pick off a tree and eat it. Whether I cook said items or not is up to me, but I prefer to eat stuff that I can eat without cooking it.
Raw liver, spinach salad and a bowl of berries is a grand meal to me and very nutrient dense.
You're not really on the subject anymore...
And trust me, plenty of people who say they're "paleo" end up making bad choices. Bacon isn't a great substitute for toast, actually, when you consume it in large quantities.
I'm glad you're happy and healthy about your diet, but my point stands for the population. There are healthy vegetarians and healthy paleo eaters, but there are just as many cheese pizza/prime rib for every meal people out there, unfortunately, and it was those to which I was referring when stating that eating a restrictive diet requires some effort to do properly. If you're doing it properly, that's awesome, but not everyone is.0 -
Well, it's certainly not difficult to have more trouble getting the appropriate nutrients when you cut stuff out of your diet, so I'm not very surprised. Vegetarians have to work harder at balanced meals, and there are tons of vegetarians who seem to subsist on fries and white bread (especially young ones and those who are vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.) There's also a pretty substantial number of people with eating disorders who become "vegetarian" so it's easier to restrict food in public.
Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to their macro and micro nutrient intake and getting everything their bodies need, but vegetarians and other people who restrict their diets (paleo etc) need to be extra careful, obviously.
No need to throw paleo in with that. When you are eating an abundance of protein, fats, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds it is not hard at all to meet both your micronutrient and macronutrient needs.
One main reason my Doctor recommends the Paleo Lifestyle to his patients to get them off medications and just eating real food.
I should have known I'd get the paleo police on my case here...they're like Betelgeuse except you only have to say the word once for them to appear.
Yes, whole foods are good. Restricting your diet from a huge number of foods can be bad if you're not careful.
I'm not the Paleo police. I just don't appreciate people stating that you will be deficient eating this way.
Eating this way is what DID correct my deficiencies.
I certainly didn't say that you WOULD be deficient, I said that any diet restricting a large amount of foods can make it more DIFFICULT and requires more effort and planning than an unrestricted one. You really don't have to jump on the defensive about it. Any time you remove something from a diet (yes, even grains) you have to replace it with something and that takes some thought.
I'm not attacking anyone here, jeez. And people wonder why so much of the MFP population makes fun of people with militant ideas about food.
To be fair, your response came off pretty snide and ****ish, particularly when you immediately called them "the paleo police" solely because they pointed out that your original statement really isn't as accurate as you seem to think.0
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