Athlean Bulking while Cutting

Stoshew71

hey guys. I came accross this youtube video. I am in no way promoting or criticizing what AthLean is preaching here.

I just wanted to get everyone's opinion. I am currently at maintenance as far as diet and I lift and I run a lot. I am training for a half marathon next Sunday. So trying to eat at a caloric surplus in order to gain muscle mass is a challange for me. This video is stating that you can actually eat at a caloric deficit, loose fat and still gain muscle mass by doing 3 things which keep you at "Positive Nitrogen Balance":

Strength Train (but not over train)
Get enough sleep
Get enough Protein (this guy suggests Cassein Protein Supplementation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3AG-oCXTE


Anyway, just wanted everyone's opinion so I can better change my routine in order to meet my goals. I would like to gain some muscle mass (therefore I eat about ~200 g of protein daily but to net 2280 or more daily calories with all the running I am doing is tough). it would be nice to know that I don't have to worry about eating at a caloric surplus just get enough protein and sleep along with my lifting to get that mass gain. I am not interested in bulking up really huge like competion level, just a little more lean muscle would be nice.

By the way, I am currently 6'2" and weight about 190 lbs (and 42 years old). Loosing fat is not that of a big deal, but gaining muscle with minimal fat gain is OK. I just have a hard time eating enough calories while I am running.


Also, I know many people will say to stop running and you will bulk. I am not ready to do that yet. Especially since there are plenty of people firmly believe that you can do heavy cardio and still bulk. Thoughts?

Thanks.

AJ_G

This video is stating that you can actually eat at a caloric deficit, loose fat and still gain muscle mass by doing 3 things which keep you at "Positive Nitrogen Balance":

Strength Train (but not over train)
Get enough sleep
Get enough Protein (this guy suggests Cassein Protein Supplementation)

This video is wrong

jwdieter

Nitrogen. It's an element. Atomic number 7. N. Science.

Stoshew71

This video is wrong

How so please?

sijomial

Well I'm confused!

Bulking is adding mass, eating at a deficit is losing mass.
What exactly are you trying to do? Sounds like you are talking about recomping but I'm not really sure.

If that's what you are trying to do then lift heavy, eat adequate protein, get enough rest, eat enough calories to maintain your weight.
And be patient.

AJ_G

This video is wrong

How so please?

Everybody on MFP who is remotely serious about weight lifting or any type of body building already does and has been doing all three of the things the video mentioned and NONE of them gained muscle mass on a deficit because the only instance where that can happen is if the person in question is severely obese. If you're anywhere near a healthy weight you cannot gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit, no matter how much sleep you get, or protein you eat, or lifting you do...

jwdieter

This video is wrong

How so please?

Well, I think the better question is: Does he have evidence for anything he's presenting?

My guess is if you take an overweight guy and provide hormonal assistance plus sleep, protein, lifting, that guy will probably recomp pretty well at a calorie deficit.

But I'm not trying to sell something, so I'm not going to post my speculation as fact on youtube.

mortuseon

You need energy to build muscle (it's anabolic) - hence you NEED a surplus. There is such a thing as 'recomping' which is slowly losing fat and adding muscle but it takes a long, long time.

AJ_G

You need energy to build muscle (it's anabolic) - hence you NEED a surplus.

Edmond_Dantes

It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

AJ_G

It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?

sijomial

It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?

The Helms study (looking at protein intake) is interesting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training

But as usual it measures either LBM or FFM.

You will notice that most of the believers that you need a surplus to gain muscle mass are those least likely to be able to achieve it (already lean, already at or near a training peak, already following a good lifting routine).
It's not quite the same for beginners, those returning from injury, subject to a new training regime or have significant energy stores (fat!).

Chris_Pierce

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

AJ_G

It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?

The Helms study (looking at protein intake) is interesting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training

But as usual it measures either LBM or FFM.

You will notice that most of the believers that you need a surplus to gain muscle mass are those least likely to be able to achieve it (already lean, already at or near a training peak, already following a good lifting routine).
It's not quite the same for beginners, those returning from injury, subject to a new training regime or have significant energy stores (fat!).

From the study:

Body fat percentage decreased (0.5% to 6.6%) in all study groups (N = 13) and FFM decreased (0.3 to 2.7kg) in nine of 13. Four groups gained or did not lose FFM. They had the highest body fat, smallest magnitudes of energy restriction or underwent novel resistance training stimuli.

None of that is surprising. Interesting study but I'd still like to see these "multiple studies" that the other poster mentioned that "debunk" what has been scientifically proven over and over...

mortuseon

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters
sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

sijomial

It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'.

Muscle doesn't actually use a lot of energy (about 6 cals a day per pound at rest).
Agree with you about these "feelings" likely to be a response to starting a new routine though.

Need to track measurements over weeks/months to confirm whether people are actually adding size. People often get confused by swelling and/or improved definition due to fat loss. If arms & legs get bigger over a long period of time while also losing weight then bingo!

AJ_G

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters
sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

Yea this is right on. Lots of new lifters think they are gaining muscle on a calorie deficit when in reality they are increasing strength. It's very possible to increase strength without gaining muscle if you're new to lifting. The strength gains coupled with the water that your muscles draw in to repair themselves after they've been damaged from lifting can trick people into thinking they are increasing muscle mass when in reality they are actually losing muscle mass. The strength increases come from neuromuscular adaptation. You're not getting stronger because you have more muscle, you're getting stronger because you're increasing muscle fiber recruitment due to the weight lifting. You're activating muscle fibers during weight lifting that you don't normally use in every day life and as a result you see a large magnitude of strength increases in a relatively short period of time.

Chris_Pierce

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters
sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

Dang, you're argument makes the sense too.
I don't think that it's water in my muscles since I'm not new to lifting and I am losing weight. I'm lifting a little more then I have in the past, but that's just natural progression as I become stronger. The only thing I changed is that I'm doing cardio and eating a deficit. I still eat 2200-2400 calories a day and lots of protein.
Anyway I don't mean to say that I'm putting on as much muscle as I would if I were over eating. That's just not going to happen.

Chris_Pierce

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters
sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

Yea this is right on. Lots of new lifters think they are gaining muscle on a calorie deficit when in reality they are increasing strength. It's very possible to increase strength without gaining muscle if you're new to lifting. The strength gains coupled with the water that your muscles draw in to repair themselves after they've been damaged from lifting can trick people into thinking they are increasing muscle mass when in reality they are actually losing muscle mass. The strength increases come from neuromuscular adaptation. You're not getting stronger because you have more muscle, you're getting stronger because you're increasing muscle fiber recruitment due to the weight lifting. You're activating muscle fibers during weight lifting that you don't normally use in every day life and as a result you see a large magnitude of strength increases in a relatively short period of time.

The only problem is that I'm not new to lifting. Sorry

AJ_G

The only problem is that I'm not new to lifting. Sorry

My bad haha

Chris_Pierce

I've read in other older threads here on mfp that there is a small % folks who can add muscle while losing weight. Could it be that I am one of the lucky few?
I'm going to do some more reading on this. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that everyone and their mothers are saying what is happening to me is impossible.

mortuseon

I've read in other older threads here on mfp that there is a small % folks who can add muscle while losing weight. Could it be that I am one of the lucky few?
I'm going to do some more reading on this. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that everyone and their mothers are saying what is happening to me is impossible.

Your genetics might make it easier for you (some people may put on muscle a little more readily), but I think you'll probably reach a point where you stall and will have to eventually eat at a surplus. It's no bad thing. If you're sure you're building right now, keep doing what you're doing and then eat at a surplus when that fails! Other people might think differently, though.

Unknown

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Chris_Pierce

Your have a point there mrm27. We all want to be "special" right? We will see what happens in the long run for me. I know after I use my me fat stores I'll have to start eating a surplus if I want to make large gains. But for now I'm happy with weight loss and small gains.

sijomial

I've read in other older threads here on mfp that there is a small % folks who can add muscle while losing weight. Could it be that I am one of the lucky few?
I'm going to do some more reading on this. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that everyone and their mothers are saying what is happening to me is impossible.

I don't believe it's as rare as people make out - there is a lot of "group think" on MFP.
Just don't expect dramatic increases!
My experience is that I recorded a small increase of LBM while losing weight (along with small measured increases in arm and leg size). I really came under the category of returning from injury/training break. I also follow an IF routine which may help.

Whatever the outcome the worst you will achieve is retaining as much muscle as possible if you do the right things. I would caution that is you are running a big deficit that's not going to help your cause.
If you are returning to lifting it is in your favour as is your age and gender.

Unknown

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Chris_Pierce

I don't know if I would be considered "returning" But I did have an injury and an illness last fall, I didn't get back into working out until December. But it's been business as usual since then, except for the added cardio and the whole dairy thing.

I did read an article that mentioned how if in the past your were more muscular that it would help you gain while losing so to speak. Back in highschool I was pretty muscular, I don't know if it's true or not, the guy has a best selling series of books on fitness. So yeah. Salesman.

Chris_Pierce

I've read in other older threads here on mfp that there is a small % folks who can add muscle while losing weight. Could it be that I am one of the lucky few?
I'm going to do some more reading on this. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that everyone and their mothers are saying what is happening to me is impossible.

I don't believe it's as rare as people make out - there is a lot of "group think" on MFP.
Just don't expect dramatic increases!
My experience is that I recorded a small increase of LBM while losing weight (along with small measured increases in arm and leg size). I really came under the category of returning from injury/training break. I also follow an IF routine which may help.

Whatever the outcome the worst you will achieve is retaining as much muscle as possible if you do the right things. I would caution that is you are running a big deficit that's not going to help your cause.
If you are returning to lifting it is in your favour as is your age and gender.

My position on this topic isn't that some/small gains are not possible, mostly within the first year of training. But I definitely don't agree with the idea that a lot of people throw around here when someone posts that they have been lifting for a couple months and they hit a 2, 3, 4 week time frame where they don't lose weight then other people jump in saying that it is because they are gaining muscle. Especially when the person is barely lifting and if they are it's not heavy or in progressive overload. Under ideal, deliberate situations where people are bulking you're looking at 2-3 lbs a month in muscle gains so if you think about someone in deficit, how much can actually be gained? Certainly not enough to mask fat loss like so many suspect.

Oh yeah that's for sure. I'm not expecting to gain as much as I lose. HAHA. That's just silly talk. Even If I were 50lbs over weight I think that'd be a hard thing to do.

iPlatano

Of course you can and sometimes ONLY maintain if you've been doing this for quite some time! You dont look to muscular so of course you can but the process is so freaking slow that you wont even notice it!

ndj1979

This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
I've never heard of Athlean though.

you lost body fat which revealed the muscle that you already have…

losing fat AND building muscle are diametrically opposed to one another. You need a calorie surplus to build new muscle, because you want to build something new out of nothing. you need a calorie deficit to lose fat. To say that you can build new muscle and lose fat at the same time, is like saying you can build a house and tear it down at the same time. ..

i find it pretty hard to believe that you are burning 1200 calories a day ANd building new muscle..

an obese beginner can have "newbie" gains but after a few months that ceases...

ndj1979

oh and LOL at "positive nitrogen balance"