Is 'eating at deficit' enough?
Replies
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You're confusing health with weight loss. Going over your calories doesn't make you unhealthy. Being fat makes you unhealthy. So eating that one tablespoon of olive oil might make an ever so slight dent in your weight loss progress, but it will positively affect your health. And what's wrong with planning your meals to allow for that olive oil? We need fat in our diets so why wouldn't you budget for it? And if you eat that salad alone with no fat you won't absorb all the nutrients either so I'd say you're always better off with the olive oil than without. You can make up for the extra 100 calories with exercise or the next day. Easy.
The term healthy really isn't as ambiguous as you make out. Either something is nutrient dense and contributes to health or it doesn't.
You were the one bashing the salad with plenty of olive oil on it, not me.
I love giant salads. I'm simply pointing out that a rich salad with plenty of oil and meat is not necessarily "unhealthy" as you seem to be suggesting and adding a generous amount of olive oil will not destroy the nutritional content of the salad. For that matter, there are plenty of situations where a rich salad is going to be the better choice. Simply put, whether a rich salad is a better choice than a dainty salad you make at home with "a little" olive oil depends on your activity level for the day and what else you've eaten. You can't just proclaim it's always more or less "healthy."
For that matter, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit with this line of thinking. First the rich salad was unhealthy... now you're saying it's healthy and you can make-up for surplus calories the next day. Which is it? Moreover, if being nutrient-dense is all that's required to make something "healthy" then you could eat healthy food all day long and get extremely fat from it. But wait, you're saying being fat isn't healthy, and yet you can easily get fat from eating only healthy foods by that definition of healthy... meaning you can damage your health by eating healthy foods. Why make it so confusing by trying to assign such labels to what you eat?
And I'd love to hear what "contributes to health" means, since you seem to be suggesting it's a separate factor from being nutrient dense... but other than providing macro and micronutrients, what exactly do foods contribute to your overall health? Perhaps an oversight, I don't know.
Honestly, it seems like you've done some research but you also have a pretty rigid view that needlessly overcomplicates things by assigning poorly defined labels to foods. I've defended calling certain foods "generally unhealthy" before but it seems like you're taking that to an extreme.
Not olive oil, vegetable oil (sunflower, rapeseed etc). Olives are a fruit
. And I'd never say to put tons on...1 tablespoon is more than sufficient. I also didn't say anything about oil on salad destroying nutrients - that was in relation to overcooking vegetables and using oil with them. The health part comes in with the type of fats and oils you are using, not the amount.
So no I haven't contradicted myself...a salad drowning in a sunflower oil based dressing is not healthy, whereas a salad with a little olive oil IS healthy. It depends on what you add to it. Going over your calories does not make it unhealthy, but if you are trying to lose weight then you can lower your calories the next day to make up for the excess.
Yes you could eat healthy food all day long and get fat if you're not expending enough energy and eating too much. That doesn't affect health, it affects your weight. Once you gain weight, THAT then affects your health. So it's not the foods that are making the person unhealthy, it's the over consumption of them, as with anything. After all, healthy foods aren't calorie free, are they?
Something being nutrient dense obviously relates to contributing to health. Many foods that contain nutrients also negatively affect health in certain situations. I don't know why something being nutrient dense and contributing to health has to be 2 separate issues, that's just me stating the obvious I guess. But, if you want to know how else foods contribute to your health, well certain foods contain substances that block minerals which negatively affects health. There are also certain carbohydrates that some people can't digest and that negatively affects their health. Foods contain more than just micro and macro nutrients and everything that goes into our body affects it in some way.
I don't think I'm taking anything to the extreme...if any food is low in nutrient value and negatively affects health then it is unhealthy because is promotes poor health. That's not me, that's just a fact. Eating those foods occasionally in small amounts may not majorly impact your health, but it by no measure makes them health giving.
I think you're confusing calorie dense with unhealthy. Both salads, assuming the are made with identical ingredients besides the oils, have the same nutritional value but one has a higher calorie content. High calorie content does not automatically make a dish unhealthy. It's all relative. Perhaps the salad eater that bathed their salad in sunflower oil hadn't eaten any fats that day. If that person is eating at a deficit and hitting macros, that salad they ate was perfectly healthy.
Taken a step further, if the person who eats the salad with only a tiny amount of olive oil (your more 'healthy' salad) regularly doesn't get enough fats in their diet, they will be a less healthy individual than the other salad eater.
Kinda what I am thinking as well. More calories does not equal unhealthy.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
What? That would be - MAYBE - 900-1000 calories right there, so maybe 40% of total calories for one day. And that would be just dinner. After a while, it would not be so tasty. (I like my dinner hot)
900-1000 calories is not a binge.
The why the hell did you claim it was? What was the point of "You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?"
As you just pointed out I said "You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?" I didn't say there must be thousands of calories in there and it will take you all day to eat. I asked it under the premise that you would be eating that food throughout the day and bingeing on it, not that one meal. I realise that things get confusing through text so I'll let you off.
How many meals do you see in that picture? Yes, confusing indeed. I see one meal, maybe 900-100 calories, depending on what's exactly on that potato. And the weight of both the meat and the potato are potentially deceiving in the picture.
YOU: Eating only for hunger isn't highly rewarding
ME: It is if the food is particularly yummy
YOU: Are you going to binge on it?
Yes, confused...0 -
And I don't believe they'd be serving anything healthy in those places either
They don't serve meat and vegetables at Brazilian steakhouses? I could've sworn the pounds of meat and vegetables I ate came from somewhere.....
I also washed it down with wine and Caramel Pecan Cheesecake.
Cooking methods and what's added to the food determine it's nutritional and health giving value. Vegetables that are charred and drowning in vegetable oil are no longer the health giving foods they were when they were fresh.
Oh see, that's perfect because I was referring to the salad bar.
As far are what is added to the food... you're telling me that adding in additional flavors, spices, oils and such makes the food devoid of nutrients then?
Yep. The addition of vegetable oil causes the nutrients to fly out of the food, presumably to Mars.
Cooking destroys nutrients. Vegetable oil causes oxidative damage in the body, reducing the effects of any nutrients in the vegetables. Please, it's not rocket science.
Cooking vegetables can preserve or even boost their nutritional value in comparison to their raw counterparts, depending on the cooking method used.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071224125524.htm
Man, science is a real jerk when it doesn't align with your misconceptions,
Yeah I don't think you've refuted what I said or that science doesn't align with what I've said. I gave a very vague example of a way in which one nutrient is destroyed while another is activated. I said earlier that cooking method and overcooking contribute, so what's your point exactly?
You wrote, "Cooking destroys nutrients." You didn't write, "Cooking sometimes degrades nutrients and sometimes it improves it."
I refuted that declarative, all-encompassing statement and even provided some backup. Maybe work on being more accurate with your language and you will be better understood.0 -
You're confusing health with weight loss. Going over your calories doesn't make you unhealthy. Being fat makes you unhealthy. So eating that one tablespoon of olive oil might make an ever so slight dent in your weight loss progress, but it will positively affect your health. And what's wrong with planning your meals to allow for that olive oil? We need fat in our diets so why wouldn't you budget for it? And if you eat that salad alone with no fat you won't absorb all the nutrients either so I'd say you're always better off with the olive oil than without. You can make up for the extra 100 calories with exercise or the next day. Easy.
The term healthy really isn't as ambiguous as you make out. Either something is nutrient dense and contributes to health or it doesn't.
You were the one bashing the salad with plenty of olive oil on it, not me. I love giant salads. I'm simply pointing out that a rich salad with plenty of oil and meat is not necessarily "unhealthy" as you seem to be suggesting and adding a generous amount of olive oil will not destroy the nutritional content of the salad. For that matter, there are plenty of situations where a rich salad is going to be the better choice. Simply put, whether a rich salad is a better choice than a dainty salad you make at home with "a little" olive oil depends on your activity level for the day and what else you've eaten. You can't just proclaim it's always more or less "healthy."
For that matter, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit with this line of thinking. First the rich salad was unhealthy... now you're saying it's healthy and you can make-up for surplus calories the next day. Which is it? Moreover, if being nutrient-dense is all that's required to make something "healthy" then you could eat healthy food all day long and get extremely fat from it. But wait, you're saying being fat isn't healthy, and yet you can easily get fat from eating only healthy foods by that definition of healthy... meaning you can damage your health by eating healthy foods. Why make it so confusing by trying to assign such labels to what you eat?
And I'd love to hear what "contributes to health" means, since you seem to be suggesting it's a separate factor from being nutrient dense... but other than providing macro and micronutrients, what exactly do foods contribute to your overall health? Perhaps an oversight, I don't know.
Honestly, it seems like you've done some research but you also have a pretty rigid view that needlessly overcomplicates things by assigning poorly defined labels to foods. I've defended calling certain foods "generally unhealthy" before but it seems like you're taking that to an extreme.
Not olive oil, vegetable oil (sunflower, rapeseed etc). Olives are a fruit. And I'd never say to put tons on...1 tablespoon is more than sufficient. I also didn't say anything about oil on salad destroying nutrients - that was in relation to overcooking vegetables and using oil with them. The health part comes in with the type of fats and oils you are using, not the amount.
So no I haven't contradicted myself...a salad drowning in a sunflower oil based dressing is not healthy, whereas a salad with a little olive oil IS healthy. It depends on what you add to it. Going over your calories does not make it unhealthy, but if you are trying to lose weight then you can lower your calories the next day to make up for the excess.
Yes you could eat healthy food all day long and get fat if you're not expending enough energy and eating too much. That doesn't affect health, it affects your weight. Once you gain weight, THAT then affects your health. So it's not the foods that are making the person unhealthy, it's the over consumption of them, as with anything. After all, healthy foods aren't calorie free, are they?
Something being nutrient dense obviously relates to contributing to health. Many foods that contain nutrients also negatively affect health in certain situations. I don't know why something being nutrient dense and contributing to health has to be 2 separate issues, that's just me stating the obvious I guess. But, if you want to know how else foods contribute to your health, well certain foods contain substances that block minerals which negatively affects health. There are also certain carbohydrates that some people can't digest and that negatively affects their health. Foods contain more than just micro and macro nutrients and everything that goes into our body affects it in some way.
I don't think I'm taking anything to the extreme...if any food is low in nutrient value and negatively affects health then it is unhealthy because is promotes poor health. That's not me, that's just a fact. Eating those foods occasionally in small amounts may not majorly impact your health, but it by no measure makes them health giving.
I think you're confusing calorie dense with unhealthy. Both salads, assuming the are made with identical ingredients besides the oils, have the same nutritional value but one has a higher calorie content. High calorie content does not automatically make a dish unhealthy. It's all relative. Perhaps the salad eater that bathed their salad in sunflower oil hadn't eaten any fats that day. If that person is eating at a deficit and hitting macros, that salad they ate was perfectly healthy.
Taken a step further, if the person who eats the salad with only a tiny amount of olive oil (your more 'healthy' salad) regularly doesn't get enough fats in their diet, they will be a less healthy individual than the other salad eater.
No, I'm not confusing calorie dense with healthy. Processed vegetable oils are not healthy. Not because of the calories, but because they are high in omega 6 fats which promote inflammation in the body and are damaged at high heats causing oxidative damage in the body. And I already said that more calories are not what makes something unhealthy. And I only gave the example of a tablespoon of olive oil in the case of not having any calories left for the day.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
What? That would be - MAYBE - 900-1000 calories right there, so maybe 40% of total calories for one day. And that would be just dinner. After a while, it would not be so tasty. (I like my dinner hot)
900-1000 calories is not a binge.
The why the hell did you claim it was? What was the point of "You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?"
As you just pointed out I said "You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?" I didn't say there must be thousands of calories in there and it will take you all day to eat. I asked it under the premise that you would be eating that food throughout the day and bingeing on it, not that one meal. I realise that things get confusing through text so I'll let you off.
How many meals do you see in that picture? Yes, confusing indeed. I see one meal, maybe 900-100 calories, depending on what's exactly on that potato. And the weight of both the meat and the potato are potentially deceiving in the picture.
YOU: Eating only for hunger isn't highly rewarding
ME: It is if the food is particularly yummy
YOU: Are you going to binge on it?
Yes, confused...
Alright, well as I said, things get confused in text. You quoted me and I assumed you were suggesting that you would binge on healthy foods. I obviously got that wrong. Apologies.0 -
Gosh, I'm really confused by all the piles of quotes, the contradictory comments and whatnot.
I've read through some of the posts here, and some people are saying that calorie deficit is good enough by itself to lose weight, while other are saying that it's all about the calories going in vs. the ones going out.
Is there an answer for this topic, or does it simply matter on the person itself?
I just feel like it's dangerous and not really healthy for people to be commenting on these kinds of topics without having proper knowledge.
However that's just my opinion, and it's not meant to offend anyone in any way.
I'm just looking for some legitimate answers to help my weight loss.
I tried MFP last year and started out really great and then fell off very quickly and gained all my lost weight back because I got very obsessed and very confused with all the differing information regarding macros and micros and healthy vs. unhealthy and clean vs. unclean and IIFYM and IF and blah blah blah. I've started over and have decided to just go with calorie deficit. So far, so good. I'm less stressed out, I'm less obsessive. I try to eat a good variety of foods, but I don't freak out if I'm 20g over for fat or 40g under for protein in a given day. I've set my calories slightly lower than TDEE-20% because I'm also a food estimator instead of a weigher (oh the horror) and I want to have a little cushion.
Though I am disappointed to hear that cooking my vegetables apparently negates them being healthy anymore. SInce I can't stomach raw veggies (literally, they do a number on my stomach), I guess I should just not eat them(?). Nah, just kidding. I love me some roasted broccoli with olive oil, garlic, and parmesan out of a green can.0 -
No, I'm not confusing calorie dense with healthy. Processed vegetable oils are not healthy. Not because of the calories, but because they are high in omega 6 fats which promote inflammation in the body and are damaged at high heats causing oxidative damage in the body. And I already said that more calories are not what makes something unhealthy. And I only gave the example of a tablespoon of olive oil in the case of not having any calories left for the day.
What does this have to do with changes in body composition?
Oh wait... nothing.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/how-clean-eating-made-me-fat-but-ice-cream-and-subway-got-me-lean/
"[...] With the Paleo diet, there are no rules on how much you can eat. By that, I mean you’re not given a set calorie or macronutrient goal to hit each day, as the theory behind Paleo eating is that the low-carb, high-protein nature of the diet leads you to feeling naturally full, and prevents over-eating.
Well, say hello to the incredible eating machine. Also known as “bottomless pit Samuels,” or “the human bin.” I don’t seem to have a full setting. When I’m not given a set amount to eat, I just eat."
And your point is? Overeating is overeating. Bingeing is quite another thing. People generally don't "binge" on healthy foods, but yes they most certainly can and do overeat on them.
You should publish a dictionary of terms and then we can keep up with you!!
I didn't decide on what the word binge means. I used it in a sentence, if you don't understand the meaning then perhaps you need to consult a dictionary before responding.
And what did yours tell you the difference between binging and over eating was in the context you used it? Were you asking if the person who posted the pics had an eating disorder? Come on, share with us that amazing mind of yours!0 -
Something being nutrient dense obviously relates to contributing to health. Many foods that contain nutrients also negatively affect health in certain situations. I don't know why something being nutrient dense and contributing to health has to be 2 separate issues, that's just me stating the obvious I guess.
The problem with the definitions you've concocted for these terms is they don't make a lot of sense in practice. You keep talking about nutrient-dense food, but realize that fat, carbs and protein are nutrients. As such, ice cream is an incredibly nutrient-dense food, with a small portion of ice cream bringing in hundreds of calories based on the density of fat and carbs (i.e., nutrients). Is ice cream "healthy"? Well, it's dense in nutrients, so it passes the nutrient-dense prong of your test.Yes you could eat healthy food all day long and get fat if you're not expending enough energy and eating too much. That doesn't affect health, it affects your weight. Once you gain weight, THAT then affects your health. So it's not the foods that are making the person unhealthy, it's the over consumption of them, as with anything. After all, healthy foods aren't calorie free, are they?
Okay, so healthy foods make you healthy, but if you eat them in excess, they make you unhealthy... why are they always healthy again? That's the problem I have with your definitions for these terms; they're overgeneralized, as nothing is absolutely "healthy" for you. If you said they're "generally a healthy choice" we'd likely have no disagreement on this issue, but the generic label of any particular food as simply "healthy" really doesn't account for every situation. At the end of the day, I just don't see how such generic labels are helpful.But, if you want to know how else foods contribute to your health, well certain foods contain substances that block minerals which negatively affects health. There are also certain carbohydrates that some people can't digest and that negatively affects their health. Foods contain more than just micro and macro nutrients and everything that goes into our body affects it in some way
You really couldn't get more vague with that answer?0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
This meal? Oh yeah, I could eat that meal several times over in one day. Especially the steak-y park. And I do binge on meat...it's one of my issues. I freakin' love meat.0 -
Gosh, I'm really confused by all the piles of quotes, the contradictory comments and whatnot.
I've read through some of the posts here, and some people are saying that calorie deficit is good enough by itself to lose weight, while other are saying that it's all about the calories going in vs. the ones going out.
Is there an answer for this topic, or does it simply matter on the person itself?
I just feel like it's dangerous and not really healthy for people to be commenting on these kinds of topics without having proper knowledge.
However that's just my opinion, and it's not meant to offend anyone in any way.
I'm just looking for some legitimate answers to help my weight loss.
And here it is!!!! This is why I was so adamantly digging my heels in. Pennylayne, would you agree with me to advise this lady to just worry about calories to get started? Because that is all that matters for weight loss?
Of course. But I'd always advise people to look at making steady lifestyle changes and working on portion size. But in the beginning, lower your calories and you'll be on your way. But if you hit some bumps in the road or things are getting tough you want to take a look at what you're eating and also if you care enough about your health. Losing weight will obviously positively affect health anyway, but there's more to health than just weight loss. Anyway, it's a long winded issue and any advice that is given to you will probably get lost up in all the silly arguing.
I do agree that if you haven't researched the subject you shouldn't be advising people on weight loss or health, but this is a discussion forum and it's freedom of speech so people will pipe in when they feel like it. If you want real health and weight loss advice you'll have to message someone privately who has some knowledge on the subject because things just get out of control on the forum I'm afraid. Welcome to drop me a line, but if you'd like to find someone more knowledgeable I'm sure there are people who will be happy to oblige.0 -
No, I'm not confusing calorie dense with healthy. Processed vegetable oils are not healthy. Not because of the calories, but because they are high in omega 6 fats which promote inflammation in the body and are damaged at high heats causing oxidative damage in the body. And I already said that more calories are not what makes something unhealthy. And I only gave the example of a tablespoon of olive oil in the case of not having any calories left for the day.
What does this have to do with changes in body composition?
Oh wait... nothing.
Yes, what does it have to do with that. I don't think I was talking about changes in body composition.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/how-clean-eating-made-me-fat-but-ice-cream-and-subway-got-me-lean/
"[...] With the Paleo diet, there are no rules on how much you can eat. By that, I mean you’re not given a set calorie or macronutrient goal to hit each day, as the theory behind Paleo eating is that the low-carb, high-protein nature of the diet leads you to feeling naturally full, and prevents over-eating.
Well, say hello to the incredible eating machine. Also known as “bottomless pit Samuels,” or “the human bin.” I don’t seem to have a full setting. When I’m not given a set amount to eat, I just eat."
And your point is? Overeating is overeating. Bingeing is quite another thing. People generally don't "binge" on healthy foods, but yes they most certainly can and do overeat on them.
You should publish a dictionary of terms and then we can keep up with you!!
I didn't decide on what the word binge means. I used it in a sentence, if you don't understand the meaning then perhaps you need to consult a dictionary before responding.
And what did yours tell you the difference between binging and over eating was in the context you used it? Were you asking if the person who posted the pics had an eating disorder? Come on, share with us that amazing mind of yours!
Overeating can take place over long periods of time and can mean going over calorie needs by any amount. Binges are short bursts of excessive eating that are far above your calorie needs. It has nothing to do with an eating disorder, I mentioned it first when I said people don't binge on healthy food. I stand by that.0 -
And I don't believe they'd be serving anything healthy in those places either
They don't serve meat and vegetables at Brazilian steakhouses? I could've sworn the pounds of meat and vegetables I ate came from somewhere.....
I also washed it down with wine and Caramel Pecan Cheesecake.
Cooking methods and what's added to the food determine it's nutritional and health giving value. Vegetables that are charred and drowning in vegetable oil are no longer the health giving foods they were when they were fresh.
Oh see, that's perfect because I was referring to the salad bar.
As far are what is added to the food... you're telling me that adding in additional flavors, spices, oils and such makes the food devoid of nutrients then?
Yep. The addition of vegetable oil causes the nutrients to fly out of the food, presumably to Mars.
Cooking destroys nutrients. Vegetable oil causes oxidative damage in the body, reducing the effects of any nutrients in the vegetables. Please, it's not rocket science.
Actually the nutrients of certain vegetables is actually enhanced by cooking them...kale is a great example....
Some are, others aren't. Vitamin C is destroyed in cooking, but lycopene is activated by cooking. It depends on which nutrients are in which vegetables. Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting you should eat all your foods raw, but overcooking does more harm than good.
But vitamin C intake becomes a no-brainer when you are eating plenty of citrus fruits. And who cooks their orange before eating it?
I was giving an example...is that allowed? Many vegetables contain vitamin C too - it is ONE example of ONE nutrient that is destroyed in cooking. Jeez. And no, not everyone does eat a lot of fruit.
An example is fine. What's not ok is to assume that one particular food item, out of context of an overall diet, is either healthy or unhealthy.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/how-clean-eating-made-me-fat-but-ice-cream-and-subway-got-me-lean/
"[...] With the Paleo diet, there are no rules on how much you can eat. By that, I mean you’re not given a set calorie or macronutrient goal to hit each day, as the theory behind Paleo eating is that the low-carb, high-protein nature of the diet leads you to feeling naturally full, and prevents over-eating.
Well, say hello to the incredible eating machine. Also known as “bottomless pit Samuels,” or “the human bin.” I don’t seem to have a full setting. When I’m not given a set amount to eat, I just eat."
And your point is? Overeating is overeating. Bingeing is quite another thing. People generally don't "binge" on healthy foods, but yes they most certainly can and do overeat on them.
You should publish a dictionary of terms and then we can keep up with you!!
I didn't decide on what the word binge means. I used it in a sentence, if you don't understand the meaning then perhaps you need to consult a dictionary before responding.
And what did yours tell you the difference between binging and over eating was in the context you used it? Were you asking if the person who posted the pics had an eating disorder? Come on, share with us that amazing mind of yours!
Overeating can take place over long periods of time and can mean going over calorie needs by any amount. Binges are short bursts of excessive eating that are far above your calorie needs. It has nothing to do with an eating disorder, I mentioned it first when I said people don't binge on healthy food. I stand by that.
And how do you know Mike never binged?
"As you can see from the food pyramid, you’re supposed to eat the fat on meats, which meant I’d devour a hefty serving of full-fat beef or lamb mince, or a couple of salmon fillets, accompanied by four or five different veggies — all cooked in oil or grass-fed butter."
Hell by your definition people generally don't binge, so maybe again I missed the point of your question0 -
Cooking destroys nutrients. Vegetable oil causes oxidative damage in the body, reducing the effects of any nutrients in the vegetables. Please, it's not rocket science.
Got it. I will eat raw potatoes moving forward.
Good. Raw potatoes contain high amounts of resistant starch. It's very good for you
So, eating something that is potentially toxic is "good for you"?0 -
You're confusing health with weight loss. Going over your calories doesn't make you unhealthy. Being fat makes you unhealthy. So eating that one tablespoon of olive oil might make an ever so slight dent in your weight loss progress, but it will positively affect your health. And what's wrong with planning your meals to allow for that olive oil? We need fat in our diets so why wouldn't you budget for it? And if you eat that salad alone with no fat you won't absorb all the nutrients either so I'd say you're always better off with the olive oil than without. You can make up for the extra 100 calories with exercise or the next day. Easy.
The term healthy really isn't as ambiguous as you make out. Either something is nutrient dense and contributes to health or it doesn't.
You were the one bashing the salad with plenty of olive oil on it, not me. I love giant salads. I'm simply pointing out that a rich salad with plenty of oil and meat is not necessarily "unhealthy" as you seem to be suggesting and adding a generous amount of olive oil will not destroy the nutritional content of the salad. For that matter, there are plenty of situations where a rich salad is going to be the better choice. Simply put, whether a rich salad is a better choice than a dainty salad you make at home with "a little" olive oil depends on your activity level for the day and what else you've eaten. You can't just proclaim it's always more or less "healthy."
For that matter, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit with this line of thinking. First the rich salad was unhealthy... now you're saying it's healthy and you can make-up for surplus calories the next day. Which is it? Moreover, if being nutrient-dense is all that's required to make something "healthy" then you could eat healthy food all day long and get extremely fat from it. But wait, you're saying being fat isn't healthy, and yet you can easily get fat from eating only healthy foods by that definition of healthy... meaning you can damage your health by eating healthy foods. Why make it so confusing by trying to assign such labels to what you eat?
And I'd love to hear what "contributes to health" means, since you seem to be suggesting it's a separate factor from being nutrient dense... but other than providing macro and micronutrients, what exactly do foods contribute to your overall health? Perhaps an oversight, I don't know.
Honestly, it seems like you've done some research but you also have a pretty rigid view that needlessly overcomplicates things by assigning poorly defined labels to foods. I've defended calling certain foods "generally unhealthy" before but it seems like you're taking that to an extreme.
Not olive oil, vegetable oil (sunflower, rapeseed etc). Olives are a fruit. And I'd never say to put tons on...1 tablespoon is more than sufficient. I also didn't say anything about oil on salad destroying nutrients - that was in relation to overcooking vegetables and using oil with them. The health part comes in with the type of fats and oils you are using, not the amount.
So no I haven't contradicted myself...a salad drowning in a sunflower oil based dressing is not healthy, whereas a salad with a little olive oil IS healthy. It depends on what you add to it. Going over your calories does not make it unhealthy, but if you are trying to lose weight then you can lower your calories the next day to make up for the excess.
Yes you could eat healthy food all day long and get fat if you're not expending enough energy and eating too much. That doesn't affect health, it affects your weight. Once you gain weight, THAT then affects your health. So it's not the foods that are making the person unhealthy, it's the over consumption of them, as with anything. After all, healthy foods aren't calorie free, are they?
Something being nutrient dense obviously relates to contributing to health. Many foods that contain nutrients also negatively affect health in certain situations. I don't know why something being nutrient dense and contributing to health has to be 2 separate issues, that's just me stating the obvious I guess. But, if you want to know how else foods contribute to your health, well certain foods contain substances that block minerals which negatively affects health. There are also certain carbohydrates that some people can't digest and that negatively affects their health. Foods contain more than just micro and macro nutrients and everything that goes into our body affects it in some way.
I don't think I'm taking anything to the extreme...if any food is low in nutrient value and negatively affects health then it is unhealthy because is promotes poor health. That's not me, that's just a fact. Eating those foods occasionally in small amounts may not majorly impact your health, but it by no measure makes them health giving.
I think you're confusing calorie dense with unhealthy. Both salads, assuming the are made with identical ingredients besides the oils, have the same nutritional value but one has a higher calorie content. High calorie content does not automatically make a dish unhealthy. It's all relative. Perhaps the salad eater that bathed their salad in sunflower oil hadn't eaten any fats that day. If that person is eating at a deficit and hitting macros, that salad they ate was perfectly healthy.
Taken a step further, if the person who eats the salad with only a tiny amount of olive oil (your more 'healthy' salad) regularly doesn't get enough fats in their diet, they will be a less healthy individual than the other salad eater.
No, I'm not confusing calorie dense with healthy. Processed vegetable oils are not healthy. Not because of the calories, but because they are high in omega 6 fats which promote inflammation in the body and are damaged at high heats causing oxidative damage in the body. And I already said that more calories are not what makes something unhealthy. And I only gave the example of a tablespoon of olive oil in the case of not having any calories left for the day.
I'll keep quoting credible sources instead of my own imperfect memory.
Sunflower oil is 68% linoleic acid. http://www.news-medical.net/health/Oils-Rich-in-Linoleic-Acid.aspx
Linoleic acid:
Alpha-linolenic acid is an essential omega-3 fatty acid. It is called “essential” because it is needed for normal human growth and development. Nuts, such as walnuts, are good sources of alpha-linolenic acid. It is also found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed (linseed) oil, canola (rapeseed) oil, and soybean oil, as well as in red meat and dairy products.
Alpha-linolenic acid is popular for preventing and treating diseases of the heart and blood vessels. It is used to prevent heart attacks, lower high blood pressure, lower cholesterol, and reverse “hardening of the blood vessels” (atherosclerosis). There is some evidence that alpha-linolenic acid from dietary sources might be effective for all these uses except lowering cholesterol. Not enough is known yet to be able to rate alpha-linolenic acid’s effect on high cholesterol.
From: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1035-ALPHA-LINOLENIC ACID.aspx?activeIngredientId=1035&activeIngredientName=ALPHA-LINOLENIC ACID
Please stop spouting off information as though it is irrefutable fact that is set in dietary stone. This is science, ever changing as new information pops up. They once said that eggs were bad for us, now they say they're good for us.
The key is moderation when it comes to diet and what you have in it. Douse your salad with sunflower oil one day, eat some raw celery and spinach the next, fry some okra in peanut oil the next day and then enjoy some steamed broccoli after that.
Stop being dogmatic. You're not doing anyone any favors.0 -
And who cooks their orange before eating it?
challenge....accepted
Let me know! 0 -
Calorie deficit is all that is needed to lose weight, BUT one should strive to meet nutritional essentials to try to attain it. Lacking in daily essentials (protein and fat are essential) may compromise how one effectively feels and also compromise lean body mass (lack of protein).Gosh, I'm really confused by all the piles of quotes, the contradictory comments and whatnot.
I've read through some of the posts here, and some people are saying that calorie deficit is good enough by itself to lose weight, while other are saying that it's all about the calories going in vs. the ones going out.
Is there an answer for this topic, or does it simply matter on the person itself?
I just feel like it's dangerous and not really healthy for people to be commenting on these kinds of topics without having proper knowledge.
However that's just my opinion, and it's not meant to offend anyone in any way.
I'm just looking for some legitimate answers to help my weight loss.
It's fine to have some "junk" in your diet as long as you're not exceeding calories you need to lose weight and as long as you've met your macro/micronutrient ratios.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
This meal? Oh yeah, I could eat that meal several times over in one day. Especially the steak-y park. And I do binge on meat...it's one of my issues. I freakin' love meat.
Whoops! I thought people weren't able to binge on "healthy" foods...
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If a defict is all it takes can someone explain to me why I have had a deficit of 1000+ everyday for 2wks and have lost only .4 lbs? Feel free to look at my diary, I am eating only healthy foods veggies, smoothies, chicken, fish, salads, fruit, and I am working out. I am supremely pissed. I am not going to stop but I am working my tail off and nothing is happening. I am hoping that one day I step on the scale and it is down 5lbs lol0
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Overeating can take place over long periods of time and can mean going over calorie needs by any amount. Binges are short bursts of excessive eating that are far above your calorie needs. It has nothing to do with an eating disorder, I mentioned it first when I said people don't binge on healthy food. I stand by that.
I would agree with the first two sentences, but disagree with the third sentence. It may not be an "eating disorder" because a binge might occur at a once-per-year visit to a buffet, or it might be a binge on Christmas Day when everyone is feasting. It could also be part of a compulsive behavioral disorder that has nothing to do with food specifically. Or it could be an eating disorder.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/binge-eating-disorder/basics/definition/con-20033155
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/binge-eating-disorder
https://bedaonline.com/0 -
If a defict is all it takes can someone explain to me why I have had a deficit of 1000+ everyday for 2wks and have lost only .4 lbs? Feel free to look at my diary, I am eating only healthy foods veggies, smoothies, chicken, fish, salads, fruit, and I am working out. I am supremely pissed. I am not going to stop but I am working my tail off and nothing is happening. I am hoping that one day I step on the scale and it is down 5lbs lol
Either you have a medical condition that's not been diagnosed or you don't have a deficit of 1000+ every day. Frequently, the calories-out end the equation is difficult to pinpoint. And often, we are eating more than we think we are.0 -
And who cooks their orange before eating it?
challenge....accepted
Let me know!
I foresee good things0 -
Something being nutrient dense obviously relates to contributing to health. Many foods that contain nutrients also negatively affect health in certain situations. I don't know why something being nutrient dense and contributing to health has to be 2 separate issues, that's just me stating the obvious I guess.
The problem with the definitions you've concocted for these terms is they don't make a lot of sense in practice. You keep talking about nutrient-dense food, but realize that fat, carbs and protein are nutrients. As such, ice cream is an incredibly nutrient-dense food, with a small portion of ice cream bringing in hundreds of calories based on the density of fat and carbs (i.e., nutrients). Is ice cream "healthy"? Well, it's dense in nutrients, so it passes the nutrient-dense prong of your test.Yes you could eat healthy food all day long and get fat if you're not expending enough energy and eating too much. That doesn't affect health, it affects your weight. Once you gain weight, THAT then affects your health. So it's not the foods that are making the person unhealthy, it's the over consumption of them, as with anything. After all, healthy foods aren't calorie free, are they?
Okay, so healthy foods make you healthy, but if you eat them in excess, they make you unhealthy... why are they always healthy again? That's the problem I have with your definitions for these terms; they're overgeneralized, as nothing is absolutely "healthy" for you. If you said they're "generally a healthy choice" we'd likely have no disagreement on this issue, but the generic label of any particular food as simply "healthy" really doesn't account for every situation. At the end of the day, I just don't see how such generic labels are helpful.But, if you want to know how else foods contribute to your health, well certain foods contain substances that block minerals which negatively affects health. There are also certain carbohydrates that some people can't digest and that negatively affects their health. Foods contain more than just micro and macro nutrients and everything that goes into our body affects it in some way
You really couldn't get more vague with that answer?
I'm sorry but you don't seem to understand the term "nutrient DENSE". That means it is a dense source of nutrients - not just protein, fat and carbs. A range of nutrients, macro and micro. Ice cream might have macronutrients, but very few micronutrients so it is not nutrient dense. It is also processed and contains many other substances that negatively effect health. Nutrient dense is something that contains more nutrients per calorie than other foods. Therefore ice cream does not fit the bill.
Food is not considered healthy or unhealthy based on how it affects your fat deposits. Our bodies are designed to store fat, but if we get TOO fat then health suffers. That's not the food's fault and it doesn't make the food unhealthy, it's our fault for eating more than we need because we should be listening to our bodies and eating when hungry. Plastic will not make you fat, but it is not healthy. Plus, if someone gains a few lbs from eating healthy this does not make them Unhealthy just because their body has done what it is designed to do. You really are just trying to make an argument over nothing. As far as our bodies are concerned, storing fat is a good thing and IS healthy. We have the ability though to know that food is in abundance and we do not need to eat piles of it and store fat, but our bodies don't know that. I'd say that in our modernised world of overconsumption and under active and food availability, you're right, no food can be considered healthy. If we go back to basics though, where people eat to survive according to hunger and for health then certain foods will always be healthy. It is not the food that changes the effect on our bodies, it is us.
Gee you know, many people actually have to make an effort to find out much of the information I'm giving out here and you just criticise me for being vague. I will give you a few examples but you're not a paying customer so if you want more info do some research yourself or you can pay me for a consultation:
1. FODMAPS are hard to digest for many people and cause digestive upset. Usually because of gut flora imbalance or food intolerance.
2. Grains contain phytates which block the absorption of calcium, zinc, iron and magnesium. They also contain lectins that resistant to digestive enzymes and stomach acid, however there are ways of reducing the content of these anti-nutrients.
3. Nightshades cause symptoms of joint pain and inflammation in some people. These are a family of plants.0 -
Nutrition and weight loss are unrelated.
If you eat less calories than you burn you will lose weight (over time, it's not a one to one / per day thing).
If eating "healthy" foods was the cause of weight loss, then we'd have to stop eating them once we hit our goals weights. This is clearly silly.
Depending on what you choose to eat and what if any exercise you choose to do... you may or may not be healthy. But you will lose weight.
What people advocating a certain range of foods (be it low carb or anything else) always neglect is that other people's tastes may not align with theres. I'm never going to eat a diet heavy in vegetables... because I don't actually like most vegetables. Yes they are excellent filler (fill the stomach relatively light in calories) but they taste like it too (to me).
Ideally people find a balance between what they like and what gives them the nutrients they need, but all the pontificating on the subject that goes on strikes me as just another way for people to feel superior.
.0 -
And I don't believe they'd be serving anything healthy in those places either
They don't serve meat and vegetables at Brazilian steakhouses? I could've sworn the pounds of meat and vegetables I ate came from somewhere.....
I also washed it down with wine and Caramel Pecan Cheesecake.
Cooking methods and what's added to the food determine it's nutritional and health giving value. Vegetables that are charred and drowning in vegetable oil are no longer the health giving foods they were when they were fresh.
Oh see, that's perfect because I was referring to the salad bar.
As far are what is added to the food... you're telling me that adding in additional flavors, spices, oils and such makes the food devoid of nutrients then?
Yep. The addition of vegetable oil causes the nutrients to fly out of the food, presumably to Mars.
Cooking destroys nutrients. Vegetable oil causes oxidative damage in the body, reducing the effects of any nutrients in the vegetables. Please, it's not rocket science.
Actually the nutrients of certain vegetables is actually enhanced by cooking them...kale is a great example....
Some are, others aren't. Vitamin C is destroyed in cooking, but lycopene is activated by cooking. It depends on which nutrients are in which vegetables. Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting you should eat all your foods raw, but overcooking does more harm than good.
But vitamin C intake becomes a no-brainer when you are eating plenty of citrus fruits. And who cooks their orange before eating it?
I was giving an example...is that allowed? Many vegetables contain vitamin C too - it is ONE example of ONE nutrient that is destroyed in cooking. Jeez. And no, not everyone does eat a lot of fruit.
An example is fine. What's not ok is to assume that one particular food item, out of context of an overall diet, is either healthy or unhealthy.
I don't think I said that. I said that foods become less health giving (ie contain less nutrients) when overcooked with other unhealthy things added to it.0 -
A bit of meat, fat and veg is enjoyable for many when eating out of hunger but it is not highly rewarding and does not make you want to eat and eat and eat. People don't binge on meat, veg and healthy fat.
^^ Speak for yourself.
This looks highly rewarding to me:
You gonna binge on that all day long and eat thousands upon thousands of calories?
http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/how-clean-eating-made-me-fat-but-ice-cream-and-subway-got-me-lean/
"[...] With the Paleo diet, there are no rules on how much you can eat. By that, I mean you’re not given a set calorie or macronutrient goal to hit each day, as the theory behind Paleo eating is that the low-carb, high-protein nature of the diet leads you to feeling naturally full, and prevents over-eating.
Well, say hello to the incredible eating machine. Also known as “bottomless pit Samuels,” or “the human bin.” I don’t seem to have a full setting. When I’m not given a set amount to eat, I just eat."
And your point is? Overeating is overeating. Bingeing is quite another thing. People generally don't "binge" on healthy foods, but yes they most certainly can and do overeat on them.
You should publish a dictionary of terms and then we can keep up with you!!
I didn't decide on what the word binge means. I used it in a sentence, if you don't understand the meaning then perhaps you need to consult a dictionary before responding.
And what did yours tell you the difference between binging and over eating was in the context you used it? Were you asking if the person who posted the pics had an eating disorder? Come on, share with us that amazing mind of yours!
Overeating can take place over long periods of time and can mean going over calorie needs by any amount. Binges are short bursts of excessive eating that are far above your calorie needs. It has nothing to do with an eating disorder, I mentioned it first when I said people don't binge on healthy food. I stand by that.
And how do you know Mike never binged?
"As you can see from the food pyramid, you’re supposed to eat the fat on meats, which meant I’d devour a hefty serving of full-fat beef or lamb mince, or a couple of salmon fillets, accompanied by four or five different veggies — all cooked in oil or grass-fed butter."
Hell by your definition people generally don't binge, so maybe again I missed the point of your question
Because that doesn't sound like a brief excessive indulgence to me, that is overeating.0 -
If a defict is all it takes can someone explain to me why I have had a deficit of 1000+ everyday for 2wks and have lost only .4 lbs? Feel free to look at my diary, I am eating only healthy foods veggies, smoothies, chicken, fish, salads, fruit, and I am working out. I am supremely pissed. I am not going to stop but I am working my tail off and nothing is happening. I am hoping that one day I step on the scale and it is down 5lbs lol
Your diary is not public. Go to Settings -> Diary settings -> Diary sharing, select public and click save changes.
You could also be retaining water for any number of reasons. I generally prefer to let 30 days pass before concluding I'm not losing any weight.0 -
Cooking destroys nutrients. Vegetable oil causes oxidative damage in the body, reducing the effects of any nutrients in the vegetables. Please, it's not rocket science.
Got it. I will eat raw potatoes moving forward.
Good. Raw potatoes contain high amounts of resistant starch. It's very good for you
So, eating something that is potentially toxic is "good for you"?
I was being facetious. But never mind, I'm sure you like arguing anyway.0
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