Fat Positivity?

Branstin

I'm very much against discrimination against people based on size or what their body looks like. Their health is their business, and it's their doctor's job to judge the state of their health, not random strangers or casual acquaintances. So I'm in favour of it from that perspective.

BUT I have seen a lot of people within this movement kidding themselves that they're healthy when they're not. I don't see how that's all that different to people glorifying extreme thinness/self starvation. They're both unhealthy extremes and people should strive to be healthy, both physically and mentally.

That said, when it comes to health there is a *massive* over-focus on body fat, at the expense of all other factors. e.g. someone can be a bit chubby yet healthy according to every other measure of health, and people focus only on the fact that they have, say, 30-35% body fat (for women) and look a bit chubby (same with men at 25-30%). And at the same time you get lean, sedentary, people who eat a very unbalanced diet who think they're healthy because their BMI is in the healthy range, yet they can barely walk up a flight of stairs, have low bone density, weak muscles and their blood lipid levels are not very good. And their body fat percentage may be as much as 30% but it doesn't notice because the low lean mass keeps their weight in the "healthy" BMI range..... which is far from healthy. People look at the two and focus on the chubby but fit person, and ignore the sedentary but thin looking person. That's what I take issue with. Health is not just about body fat, it's about a whole range of different things, and everyone should strive to be healthy. So maybe the fit but chubby person could do with lowering their body fat percentage a little..... but the skinny sedentary person needs to get in the gym and get active just as much as a fat sedentary person does, and they also need to focus on eating a balanced diet and improving their body fat percentage. And additionally, while it's possible to be very fit and a little bit obese (e.g. around 35% body fat).......... there's a limit to how fat someone can be without the fatness itself impacting their health in a severe way, both from the risk of long term health problems and also because fat makes it hard to be physically active. Fat and sedentary is a very bad situation from a health point of view.

Beautifully stated!

AsaThorsWoman

From the beginning of time to current, there have been humans walking around, some really fat, some very thin, some in-between.

PJPrimrose

Sort of OT here: Haters gunna hate. It can be over sex, weight, culture, the texture of your hair (true),race, religion, skin tone (true) what country you are from, how tall you are, how short you are ad nauseum! For example, "skinny *****" what in heck does that MEAN? Who cares? Seriously, who cares!!! If the people who care about you, excluding the people who should but don't like a sucky relative, are telling you one thing and some jerk is telling you another why listen to the jerk? There are stupid and rude people in the world. There are "well meaning", insensitive and stupid people in the world. Unless they are planning to assault you over their stupidity why give a crud what a fool thinks? DO WHAT YOU DO, be who you are, stop listening to fools and find your own path! End of rant.

Cheechos

I don't agree with bashing people of ANY body type. When you're fat, especially VERY fat, you face loads of discrimination. Those types of problems shouldn't be fixed by losing weight, they should be fixed by changing society so we're not seeing fat people as not being worthy of respect.

This.

Double-this.

Triple this.

Something that really makes me smile here is that even people who don't agree with choosing to remain fat or being okay with fat still put their foot down and insist that fat folks deserve respect. That is, essentially, what is at the core of fat acceptance. Seeing MFP members consistently stand up against weight discrimination and body shaming is what makes me confident that I chose a good place to be for my own weight related efforts.

That being said, I am a fat positive person and I've been a supporter of the movement for a while now. It's not something everyone can understand, but it's something that can be very liberating for those who do understand it. I didn't truly start to love myself until I found the fat acceptance community, so it is something that I hold very dear to my heart.

Branstin

Body discrimination of any kind is wrong. Very slender people get discriminated against, and overweight people do, too. Even muscular people get hate.

It's always wrong. It's always mean. It's never acceptable.

+1

ublanchard

The point of fat positivity (though fat acceptance is the term i usually hear) is that all people of all sizes, EVEN FAT PEOPLE, deserve basic respect and that no one should be ashamed of their body. One of the reasons it's important is the way being fat in public affects your experience of normal life. For example, it has been shown that fat people can get worse medical care than non-fat people because doctors tend to ascribe any medical problem a fat person has to their weight. And that is not always true, but non-weight related reasons for health problems can get ignored and then a legitimate medical condition goes untreated. Related is the healthy at any size (HAES) movement that looks for a more nuanced picture of health beyond weight or BMI.

The other thing about fat positivity is that it can benefit everyone. Like have you noticed how the definition of who is 'fat' depends on context? That the definition differs from person to person? That women's magazines are always telling readers some random obscure part of their body is gross and in need of shrinking and toning? Joan Rivers is on TV calling Lena Dunham obese. Fat acceptance is about everyone being free to have the body they have without being targeted for ridicule or discrimination.

Also you say that most of their problems can be solved by losing weight but that is your assumption of facts not in evidence. If your problem is your doctor won't believe you about the pain a medical condition is causing you the problem is a doctor not doing their job. Spending months losing weight isn't really a solution. We can do better.

I can only speak for myself here but I can tell you I am much happier. But out of all the hundreds if things that have changed for me for the better after I have lost most of my weight there is one thing that makes me the happiest. Its that other people don't feel the need to tell me about my own life. It get s tiresome to hear others opinions about how YOU should improve YOURSELF. Don't get angry at other people for loving themselves, get angry at yourself for hating you. Worry about yourself more and other people less.

RIght on! For me fat acceptance gave me the will and the confidence to pursue exercise and weight loss. I was ashamed to be seen exercising, but feeling like it's ok to be what I am gives me the strength to be fat while exercising and think screw anyone who has a problem with me.

Lastly, you might want to check out http://www.fatnutritionist.com/ or her twitter handle @fatnutritionist for some easy for laypeople to read info.

Fenrissa

It reminds me of the "Meat is for the man, bones are for the dog" saying. People who are overweight do not want things said about them that could hurt their feelings but assume that because someone is thin, they have no reason to be offended. The thin bashing is the same as fat shaming and they should all be ashamed of themselves.

I agree. I'm all for body positivity and encourage it but I don't agree with body shaming, on either end (thin or fat).

ublanchard

Fat poses so many health risks and people who claim to be happy how they are make me ANGRY!!!!! It's nothing to do with looks it's about your health! You will live a far more fulfilling life at a healthy weight.

You won't require a seatbelt extension on the plane. You won't be too big for the rides at the theme park. You can shop in normal stores. You have energy and good health. How much happier would you be?!!!

Someone else being happy makes you ANGRY!!!!! For real all caps, five exclamation points angry? Maybe work on calibrating your emotional response to things that have nothing to do with you before you come for people who are not bothering you.

Loralrose

Yes, but as a medicine student, I know what I'm talking about. They're usually kidding themselves. It puts so much strain on their organs and is extremely damaging to their joints. Yet they claim to be healthy.

This arrogance will make you a bad doctor. You are 20, so likely 2nd or 3rd year of college or, if not in the US you still have 3-6 year to be a doctor. Most good doctors know that at best they have an educated guess and that their "knowledge" base can and will be overturned time and time again.

Being slightly overweight is often a long term statistical indicator of better health than being slightly underweight. There are now many epidemiological studies that demonstrate this; it also highlights that weight isn't the only health factor.

People that have joint issues know it, they aren't usually kidding themselves, they are quite aware of the issue. Perhaps a few people are in denial but my professional experience (as a hip prosthetic designer/biomaterials researcher for 6 years in which I saw hundreds of patients) is that the overweight person with joint pain is well aware of the weight contribution to the issue. If they could wave a magic wand and magically reduce their weight they would. It's a pretty easily litmus test question.

For many people who are overweight, having a positive attitude about themselves can be an essential step to losing weight. Feel good and you might have the energy to change while negativity about the body, depression may lead some down the path of fatalism and giving up. In this sense accepting yourself, being happy may be factors of success in weight loss.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

According to all measurements I am officially obese, with a high body fat percentage. And yet at my last doctors appointment the doc actually said "Wow, I've never seen someone with results as good as yours!" My cardiovascular fitness is off the charts. My bloodwork is perfect. Joint problems? Yeah, I had knee surgery a few years ago... after slamming my knee into a water-main so hard the pipe broke! Looking at someone's body shape tells you nothing about their overall health or fitness. I may be a statistical anomaly but there's a lot of anomalous folk out here. You should not confuse a trend with an individual.

My point is that I made the decision to lose weight even though at the moment I'm in perfect health. I made the decision because I love my body and I want to treat it even better. Because I will be faster and better at sports if I'm a little lighter on my feet. Because I like the look of a slim body. NOT because I'm unhealthy or because someone shamed me into it.

mandasalem

Fat poses so many health risks and people who claim to be happy how they are make me ANGRY!!!!! It's nothing to do with looks it's about your health! You will live a far more fulfilling life at a healthy weight.

You won't require a seatbelt extension on the plane. You won't be too big for the rides at the theme park. You can shop in normal stores. You have energy and good health. How much happier would you be?!!!

"Claim to be happy" - You know their innermost thoughts and feelings?

"Make me ANGRY!!!" - I'm starting to see why you have a twisted view of people's happiness.

"You can shop in normal stores." - Oh dear God. "Normal" is such a weighted word that actually typifies the very thing people are railing against when they try to enforce body acceptance. What, pray tell, is normal? My ears are aperk and waiting.

So my question for you is how much happier would YOU be in taking some time for introspection and focusing on your own mental health rather than wasting your time and "energy and good health" playing guesswork with the mental (and physical) health of others?

jerber160

I think this is a dangerous trend. Simply, Fat is Bad.

I'm all for feeling comfortable in your body, but most of us here came to a place where it was time to do something about our weight.

for me, 2 stories.. First, it was a fantastic feeling being able to go off the diabetes medicine. HAH!.. I'm waffling now, regaining, but i'm NOT giving up. I'll get that mojo back!

second- I teach at an arts high school. we watched a video of a production we'd done about 7 or 8 years ago. One of the first reactions was, 'they're all so skinny." well not really, but in 8 years the kids are a LOT thicker than they used to be and they notice it. I still stink antibiotics and hormones in meats must have something to do with this. Something but not everything. kids ARE lazier today than in the past, hence 'thicker.' oddly, a lot o the thin ones are not what I would call 'fit.' crunches.. they give up!

k_nicole87

I think this is a dangerous trend. Simply, Fat is Bad.

I'm all for feeling comfortable in your body, but most of us here came to a place where it was time to do something about our weight.

for me, 2 stories.. First, it was a fantastic feeling being able to go off the diabetes medicine. HAH!.. I'm waffling now, regaining, but i'm NOT giving up. I'll get that mojo back!

second- I teach at an arts high school. we watched a video of a production we'd done about 7 or 8 years ago. One of the first reactions was, 'they're all so skinny." well not really, but in 8 years the kids are a LOT thicker than they used to be and they notice it. I still stink antibiotics and hormones in meats must have something to do with this. Something but not everything. kids ARE lazier today than in the past, hence 'thicker.' oddly, a lot o the thin ones are not what I would call 'fit.' crunches.. they give up!

I have a very good friend who has been an avid clean eating fitness machine for 5 straight years, even competing in races and tough mudders any chance she gets. She cannot lose the weight and she has tried. There is something to be said for people judging the health of an overweight person by appearance alone.

ublanchard

Aha, I found the link to this study's abstract about the impact of body acceptance on health: http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjada/article/S0002-8223(05)00322-6/abstract

Here is what the abstract says:
Abstract
Objective
Examine a model that encourages health at every size as opposed to weight loss. The health at every size concept supports homeostatic regulation and eating intuitively (ie, in response to internal cues of hunger, satiety, and appetite).

Design
Six-month, randomized clinical trial; 2-year follow-up.

Subjects
White, obese, female chronic dieters, aged 30 to 45 years (N=78).

Setting
Free-living, general community.

Interventions
Six months of weekly group intervention (health at every size program or diet program), followed by 6 months of monthly aftercare group support.

Main outcome measures
Anthropometry (weight, body mass index), metabolic fitness (blood pressure, blood lipids), energy expenditure, eating behavior (restraint, eating disorder pathology), and psychology (self-esteem, depression, body image). Attrition, attendance, and participant evaluations of treatment helpfulness were also monitored.

Statistical analysis performed
Analysis of variance.

Results
Cognitive restraint decreased in the health at every size group and increased in the diet group, indicating that both groups implemented their programs. Attrition (6 months) was high in the diet group (41%), compared with 8% in the health at every size group. Fifty percent of both groups returned for 2-year evaluation. Health at every size group members maintained weight, improved in all outcome variables, and sustained improvements. Diet group participants lost weight and showed initial improvement in many variables at 1 year; weight was regained and little improvement was sustained.

Conclusions
The health at every size approach enabled participants to maintain long-term behavior change; the diet approach did not. Encouraging size acceptance, reduction in dieting behavior, and heightened awareness and response to body signals resulted in improved health risk indicators for obese women.


TL;DR size acceptance helps lose weight and sustain long term healthy behaviors.

Pirate_chick

If people are comfortable in their skin so be it. I have a friend that does a plus size fashion blog. She's stunningly beautiful and loves her body. Who are you to judge that they are happy in their skin.

zaftigirl

I'm with you on that one. The fact of "thin-bashing" means something has gone very wrong b/c bashing is what we're trying to get away from.

I've also read a number of obituaries of people who were fat activists and many of them did in fact die from weight-related illnesses.

redwoodkestrel

Here's a pretty eloquent blog written by a doctor who had his unconscious fat-shaming brought to light for him by someone involved in the fat acceptance/HAES movement. It was an eye-opening moment for him to realize the preconceived notions he had about fat people without even really knowing he had them. And a very well-written view by the other woman of what it's like for most fat people when they go to the doctor.

http://unbiasedsample.com/2013/01/doctors-bias/

Let people be happy with who they are. When you feel angry or upset when you see a fat person who is apparently happy with themselves and their body, I urge you to turn that inward and really think about why it makes you so upset - what is it that upsets YOU about yourself that you're projecting onto them?

Fiercely_Me

The people who have issues with this "movement" don't have a problem with people being happy with their bodies. The problem is when people inside the group begin discriminating against those outside the group, in this case, thin or average people being called out and bashed online and in real life. I have witnessed this happening.
I'm all for body love, whatever, but I don't think the example these "Tumblr fatspo bloggers" is in any way helpful for their cause. When was the last time you listened to or learned something positive from a man screaming on the street? I see no difference between this and ranting, disgruntled bloggers, who attack others with words. They need to figure out the right way to deliver their message without being so hateful and angry.

Now, that's just tone policing.

Conveniently enough, it's also not true.

I actually run a body positive blog (I can link it here, if anyone's interested) and I promise that it's never been used to perpetuate "thin hate" or whatever it is that people are supposedly worried about. I can't say that no-one has ever just out and out hated on thin people, but I /can/ say that's not what this movement is about.

That said, who wouldn't be angry? Who wouldn't yell? People (thin ones in particular) have been telling me my whole life "Sweetie you'd look /so good/ if you just dropped, you know, 15-20lbs." They've told me I'm not allowed to wear what I want. (Should you really wear those shorts?) They've told me I'm not allowed to eat what I want. (Maybe you should, you know, skip the bread. All those calories...) They've called me names. (Cow. Fat slut.)

We can't all be Ghandi. Sometimes, it takes anger to make things happen. The goal of fat positive and body positive bloggers is to create safe spaces online for people who have body types that don't fit mainstream beauty ideals. That means people of color, people who are fat, people with disabilities, trans* individuals, etc. These spaces NEED to exist. People need places to learn to love themselves. Society won't be providing them. There's too much money in making people hate themselves. (Too fat? Too ugly? Buy OUR product and we can make you acceptable) Because of that, we have to create them for ourselves.

And actually, people do have a problem with fat people loving themselves. I hear all kinds of horrible comments all day long about how so-and-so really needs to drop some confidence because she's "way too fat" to be as pretty as she thinks she is, or whatever. I've seen it make people genuinely angry. Hell, it used to make /me/ angry, once. When I was, y'know, in the middle of my ed.

The reason for that anger is because it's threatening. It's scary to see someone who's the embodiment of what you've been taught to believe is unloveable loving themselves. It's scary because someone isn't suffering the same fear of fat that you are. It feels unfair that they get to love themselves when you work SO HARD to be the "right" kind of body, and still have trouble.

that response was perfect omfg

My reaction as well.

Everything that you said was on point, but especially the bolded part.

jerber160

[/quote]

I have a very good friend who has been an avid clean eating fitness machine for 5 straight years, even competing in races and tough mudders any chance she gets. She cannot lose the weight and she has tried. There is something to be said for people judging the health of an overweight person by appearance alone.
[/quote]

I'm wondering if she's considered to be 'morbidly obese?'

ghostsnstuff

Yes, but as a medicine student, I know what I'm talking about. They're usually kidding themselves. It puts so much strain on their organs and is extremely damaging to their joints. Yet they claim to be healthy.

This arrogance will make you a bad doctor. You are 20, so likely 2nd or 3rd year of college or, if not in the US you still have 3-6 year to be a doctor. Most good doctors know that at best they have an educated guess and that their "knowledge" base can and will be overturned time and time again.

Being slightly overweight is often a long term statistical indicator of better health than being slightly underweight. There are now many epidemiological studies that demonstrate this; it also highlights that weight isn't the only health factor.

People that have joint issues know it, they aren't usually kidding themselves, they are quite aware of the issue. Perhaps a few people are in denial but my professional experience (as a hip prosthetic designer/biomaterials researcher for 6 years in which I saw hundreds of patients) is that the overweight person with joint pain is well aware of the weight contribution to the issue. If they could wave a magic wand and magically reduce their weight they would. It's a pretty easily litmus test question.

For many people who are overweight, having a positive attitude about themselves can be an essential step to losing weight. Feel good and you might have the energy to change while negativity about the body, depression may lead some down the path of fatalism and giving up. In this sense accepting yourself, being happy may be factors of success in weight loss.

Thank you for pointing out what I was going to mention about the arrogance. As a student, it is your job to learn, not assume that you already know.

That's fair, and back in Toronto we get to practise actually being "doctors" and sitting in on/helping out with people's appointments. I've seen a few overweight people in the past few months who are fit and healthy. But the majority aren't. I've even seen a few who support fat acceptance, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but a lot of them have the mindset that if they don't like what their doctor says, they will find a new one. It's not good.

sugarstrawberries

The fat acceptance movement is fine in my opinion until they start using the term "glorify obesity". That's when you've lost me.

The fat acceptance movement DOES NOT use the term "glorify obesity"!!! That is a phrase thrown at them about what people THINK they are doing.