Ketosis and nutrient-intake
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can anyone tell me if a keto diet would hurt running performance? i'm not running huge distances, about 3 miles per session a few times a week
As a latecomer to running (I'm 53) I have run 5k and 10k having been low carb / keto for a few years. Under 30 mins 5k, a sniff over an hour 10k. HTH.
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
Timothy Olsan won the 2012 western states 100 mile endurance race on a low carb diet his time was 14hrs 46 mins (it was a new course record) and faster than his previous time the year before when he was high carb!
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy0 -
Man, what a fun thread. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I like my carbs.
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Oh, now now.......don't be upset because I worked hard and am comfortable enough to not have a shirt on. Don't worry maybe one day your work will pay off.Tiger, save your energy. He argues for the sake or arguing. Not because he has a specific stance on a subject. He debates just to debate....you'll see that soon enough
No I argue because people like you, tiger, ndj are incorrect.
I definitely have a stance.
Low carb high fat works - for some not all (in regards to sustainability). Is it healthy - yes
IIFYM and calorie counting works - for some not all ( in regards to sustainability). Is it healthy - yes
You guys seem to think that I size fits all and that's just a bit too narrow minded.
Also I tend to to enjoy debating stupid statements like - the brain only uses glucose, your body needs carbs to survive, cutting out food groups is unsustainable, no one in the world can suffer from an addiction to food Etc and many other statements made.
So whilst you guys continue to set off the derp alert, I'll continue to argue.
Besides these forums wouldn't be as much fun without opposing view points.
how the hell did I get dragged into this thread? I have not even commented…
I love how you say we are "incorrect' and then provide no examples as back up.
and I do not practice IIFYM so you have me confused with another NDJ…
No I was generalising as you seem to be incorrect about a lot of things!
Nope. The sad part is you don't know enough to know that you just don't know enough. You've somehow become an expert after 4 months and having minimal results through application. Guys like you come around all the time, you just happen to spend more time posting than most. However, you keep telling yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel successful especially by attempting to discredit people who have actually shown results.
Yes you are right I do not have a degree from the university of shirtless.
And you are correct 4 months is not nearly enough time to read up and research things, I'm sure there's a peer reviewed study out there somewhere to prove that.
Whats your qualifications on human biology on a low carb diet by the way. As based on your previous posts you have achieved your results on a high/medium carb diet?
Hey don't get me wrong, more power to your elbow on your results.
My comment was aimed at the fact that because you have had success doing something a certain way you believe that it qualifies you every area (a bit delusional IMO).
I have no doubt that if I were seeking to get the same result and was eating med / high carbs you would be the go to guy.
But when it comes to low carbs - you're not that guy, because you lack a bit of understanding (but that's fine, low carbs isn't your bag).
epic backtrack ….
You try to insult someone for having gone to "university of shirtless" then when you get called on it, walk the whole thing back and say "yea, you look great more power to you" and then go on to say that they are delusional…..
I would rather have gone to the university of shirtless than the university of derp ….
based on your previous posting history, I would say that you are the expert on nothing….
ETA - I have always said that low carb, keto, IF, IIFYM, et al are just tools that someone uses to create a calorie deficit. My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others, and I only have an issue when someone says "well I ate in a deficit and did not lose weight, but once I switched to low card the weight came off and calorie deficit does not work for me…"0 -
ETA - I have always said that low carb, keto, IF, IIFYM, et al are just tools that someone uses to create a calorie deficit. My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others, and I only have an issue when someone says "well I ate in a deficit and did not lose weight, but once I switched to low card the weight came off and calorie deficit does not work for me…"
At this point, that is my general view in all this.
If it works for you, then do it.
But if weight loss is your goal, you are in some form of deficit....0 -
can anyone tell me if a keto diet would hurt running performance? i'm not running huge distances, about 3 miles per session a few times a week
As a latecomer to running (I'm 53) I have run 5k and 10k having been low carb / keto for a few years. Under 30 mins 5k, a sniff over an hour 10k. HTH.
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
Timothy Olsan won the 2012 western states 100 mile endurance race on a low carb diet his time was 14hrs 46 mins (it was a new course record) and faster than his previous time the year before when he was high carb!
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
Sorry are you saying he didn't run the western 100 in what was probably a mostly keto state?
Also I read the blog/article from Anthony Colpo. Didn't prove anything and came across as a typical piss and whine blog from and anti low carber.
If you have any actual proof this runner didn't complete the race in a mainly keto state (scientific proof) then pass it down the line.0 -
can anyone tell me if a keto diet would hurt running performance? i'm not running huge distances, about 3 miles per session a few times a week
As a latecomer to running (I'm 53) I have run 5k and 10k having been low carb / keto for a few years. Under 30 mins 5k, a sniff over an hour 10k. HTH.
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
Timothy Olsan won the 2012 western states 100 mile endurance race on a low carb diet his time was 14hrs 46 mins (it was a new course record) and faster than his previous time the year before when he was high carb!
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
Sorry are you saying he didn't run the western 100 in what was probably a mostly keto state?
Also I read the blog/article from Anthony Colpo. Didn't prove anything and came across as a typical piss and whine blog from and anti low carber.
If you have any actual proof this runner didn't complete the race in a mainly keto state (scientific proof) then pass it down the line.
Yet you have no actual proof he did run it in a keto state and since you made the claim, go ahead and support that he did indeed run it in mainly a keto state0 -
My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others
Insulin resistant people (many obese fit the bill) do better on low carb, insulin sensitive on high carb low fat.
Use the right tool for the job ?
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You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.0 -
Oh, now now.......don't be upset because I worked hard and am comfortable enough to not have a shirt on. Don't worry maybe one day your work will pay off.Tiger, save your energy. He argues for the sake or arguing. Not because he has a specific stance on a subject. He debates just to debate....you'll see that soon enough
No I argue because people like you, tiger, ndj are incorrect.
I definitely have a stance.
Low carb high fat works - for some not all (in regards to sustainability). Is it healthy - yes
IIFYM and calorie counting works - for some not all ( in regards to sustainability). Is it healthy - yes
You guys seem to think that I size fits all and that's just a bit too narrow minded.
Also I tend to to enjoy debating stupid statements like - the brain only uses glucose, your body needs carbs to survive, cutting out food groups is unsustainable, no one in the world can suffer from an addiction to food Etc and many other statements made.
So whilst you guys continue to set off the derp alert, I'll continue to argue.
Besides these forums wouldn't be as much fun without opposing view points.
how the hell did I get dragged into this thread? I have not even commented…
I love how you say we are "incorrect' and then provide no examples as back up.
and I do not practice IIFYM so you have me confused with another NDJ…
No I was generalising as you seem to be incorrect about a lot of things!
Nope. The sad part is you don't know enough to know that you just don't know enough. You've somehow become an expert after 4 months and having minimal results through application. Guys like you come around all the time, you just happen to spend more time posting than most. However, you keep telling yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel successful especially by attempting to discredit people who have actually shown results.
Yes you are right I do not have a degree from the university of shirtless.
And you are correct 4 months is not nearly enough time to read up and research things, I'm sure there's a peer reviewed study out there somewhere to prove that.
Whats your qualifications on human biology on a low carb diet by the way. As based on your previous posts you have achieved your results on a high/medium carb diet?
Hey don't get me wrong, more power to your elbow on your results.
My comment was aimed at the fact that because you have had success doing something a certain way you believe that it qualifies you every area (a bit delusional IMO).
I have no doubt that if I were seeking to get the same result and was eating med / high carbs you would be the go to guy.
But when it comes to low carbs - you're not that guy, because you lack a bit of understanding (but that's fine, low carbs isn't your bag).
epic backtrack ….
You try to insult someone for having gone to "university of shirtless" then when you get called on it, walk the whole thing back and say "yea, you look great more power to you" and then go on to say that they are delusional…..
I would rather have gone to the university of shirtless than the university of derp ….
based on your previous posting history, I would say that you are the expert on nothing….
ETA - I have always said that low carb, keto, IF, IIFYM, et al are just tools that someone uses to create a calorie deficit. My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others, and I only have an issue when someone says "well I ate in a deficit and did not lose weight, but once I switched to low card the weight came off and calorie deficit does not work for me…"
I use the term university of shirtless (probably because it get your goat).
Plus it's also funny as in past threads when people have asked what someone's qualification is they have responded 'just look at my profile pick, that's my qualification (ref captainspaz)' - sorry but it just seemed a bit ridiculous.
Why would I not congratulate someone on how they look. I have very differing views to geeksuk, he posted a new profile pic and I complemented him on his hard work.
I don't think many people on theses threads push low carb down anyone's throats or claim them to be better.
What I see time and again is you guys hijacking these threads, claim low carb either doesn't work it is unnecessary.
Well both of those opinions are incorrect.
I will agree that low carb is as unnecessary (for some) just as counting calories is (for others).
It would be nice if people asking to low carb advice or people's experience with it could get the feedback without you guys trying to recruit them for the moderation brigade.
Still that's not going to happen, so we shall have to continue debating.0 -
can anyone tell me if a keto diet would hurt running performance? i'm not running huge distances, about 3 miles per session a few times a week
As a latecomer to running (I'm 53) I have run 5k and 10k having been low carb / keto for a few years. Under 30 mins 5k, a sniff over an hour 10k. HTH.
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
Timothy Olsan won the 2012 western states 100 mile endurance race on a low carb diet his time was 14hrs 46 mins (it was a new course record) and faster than his previous time the year before when he was high carb!
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
Sorry are you saying he didn't run the western 100 in what was probably a mostly keto state?
Also I read the blog/article from Anthony Colpo. Didn't prove anything and came across as a typical piss and whine blog from and anti low carber.
If you have any actual proof this runner didn't complete the race in a mainly keto state (scientific proof) then pass it down the line.
Yet you have no actual proof he did run it in a keto state and since you made the claim, go ahead and support that he did indeed run it in mainly a keto state
He said he did and I have no reason to doubt his honesty.0 -
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda0 -
ETA - I have always said that low carb, keto, IF, IIFYM, et al are just tools that someone uses to create a calorie deficit. My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others, and I only have an issue when someone says "well I ate in a deficit and did not lose weight, but once I switched to low card the weight came off and calorie deficit does not work for me…"
At this point, that is my general view in all this.
If it works for you, then do it.
But if weight loss is your goal, you are in some form of deficit....
Yes you have to be in a deficit - low carb isn't magic (for weight loss it a convenient way to eat a deficit)0 -
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
How is that propaganda in favor of IIFYM?
I suppose this is also propaganda?
http://jap.physiology.org/content/100/1/70 -
Could be, as it's an Invited Editorial (8 years old, cited by 7) and has a confrontational title I suspect it probably is.0 -
Interesting study, but it doesn't mention endurance athletes and keto.
I think it's common knowledge that sprints and anaerobic activity require a higher level of carb feeding to replenish muscle glycogen.
And I believe that low carb endurance athletes accommodate this in their race tactics.0 -
it's well-understood by anyone that spends anytime researching cellular respiration that sustained ANAEROBIC effort requires glucose to fuel it.LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
Whether you're running an ultra-marathon, cycling a century or just a weekend warrior, you will find yourself hitting anaerobic effort at times. Just because you target carbohydrate intake to correspond to that activity doesn't mean you aren't low-carb, nor does it mean you aren't still in ketosis. Anti-low-carb advocates fail to point that out.
If I want to take in 160g of carbohydrate during a 163km mountainous bike ride, I will. I'll also eat somewhere between 6,500 and 7,500 calories that day in total, so it's still under 10% of my dietary intake from carbohydrate.
For me, that 163km with 15,000 feet of climbing requires that much carbohydrate (4x 40g feeds during the ride), or I bonk. This doesn't mean I'm *NOT* low-carb (because let's be honest - 10% of caloric intake is ALWAYS low-carb), and it doesn't remotely come close to knocking me OUT of ketosis. By comparison, those riding with me will take in more than 5x that much carbohydrate.
You people that think eating ANY carbohydrate means you're NOT low-carb/ketogenic need to look up what a Targeted Ketogenic Diet is.
FYI - it's an opinion article, using only the evidence to support their side of the argument, instead of any opposing viewpoint (for which evidence DOES also exist.) It's certainly NOT a study. And it echoes what I've said above. Even low-carb athletes need glucose to fuel anaerobic activity. However, it doesn't mean they're NOT low-carb, nor does it knock them out of ketosis.0 -
it's well-understood by anyone that spends anytime researching cellular respiration that sustained ANAEROBIC effort requires glucose to fuel it.LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
Whether you're running an ultra-marathon, cycling a century or just a weekend warrior, you will find yourself hitting anaerobic effort at times. Just because you target carbohydrate intake to correspond to that activity doesn't mean you aren't low-carb, nor does it mean you aren't still in ketosis. Anti-low-carb advocates fail to point that out.
If I want to take in 160g of carbohydrate during a 163km mountainous bike ride, I will. I'll also eat somewhere between 6,500 and 7,500 calories that day in total, so it's still under 10% of my dietary intake from carbohydrate.
For me, that 163km with 15,000 feet of climbing requires that much carbohydrate (4x 40g feeds during the ride), or I bonk. This doesn't mean I'm *NOT* low-carb (because let's be honest - 10% of caloric intake is ALWAYS low-carb), and it doesn't remotely come close to knocking me OUT of ketosis. By comparison, those riding with me will take in more than 5x that much carbohydrate.
You people that think eating ANY carbohydrate means you're NOT low-carb/ketogenic need to look up what a Targeted Ketogenic Diet is.
FYI - it's an opinion article, using only the evidence to support their side of the argument, instead of any opposing viewpoint (for which evidence DOES also exist.) It's certainly NOT a study. And it echoes what I've said above. Even low-carb athletes need glucose to fuel anaerobic activity. However, it doesn't mean they're NOT low-carb, nor does it knock them out of ketosis.
For the evidence for what did the studies show? Is some of this evidence the Phinney cyclist studies?0 -
There's several studies in addition to Finney:For the evidence for what did the studies show? Is some of this evidence the Phinney cyclist studies?
Lambert, et.al. showed "... that 2 weeks of adaptation to a high-fat diet would result in an enhanced resistance to fatigue and a significant sparing of endogenous carbohydrate during low to moderate intensity exercise in a relatively glycogen-depleted state and unimpaired performance during high intensity exercise."
Paoli, et.al. showed "...Despite concerns of coaches and doctors about the possible detrimental effects of low carbohydrate diets on athletic performance and the well known importance of carbohydrates there are no data about VLCKD and strength performance. The undeniable and sudden effect of VLCKD on fat loss may be useful for those athletes who compete in sports based on weight class. We have demonstrated that using VLCKD for a relatively short time period (i.e. 30 days) can decrease body weight and body fat without negative effects on strength performance in high level athletes."
It's true there's not a lot of studies either way, and none have been large-scale clinical trials. But there is enough both clinical research and anecdotal evidence to state that a targeted ketogenic diet will allow decent athletic performance for those that choose to use it for whatever reason (ie: my Type I diabetes). Could an athlete be competitive on <30g a day? No. Unequivocally NO. But with targeting proper amounts and timing their CHO intake for their exercise while remaining in ketosis... ? Absolutely.
BTW, the in the op.ed you linked to (not a clinical trial) the author actually referenced their own studies... multiple times ... Even so, if you READ the article itself, you'll see the state the SAME THING that I do, that performance is NOT impaired, with the exception of ANAEROBIC capacity. Which is why an athlete has to target CHO intake for anaerobic effort/performance.
BTW to declare one study (Phinney, et.al.) invalid because you are anti-low-carb and worship at the alter of Colpo (who leaves considerable information OUT of his blog pieces, and makes any assumption that will support his case) while referencing no science/research of your own is rather hypocritical and unscientific of you.
As has been mentioned by several people, you CAN be on a low-carb ketogenic diet AND target enough CHO intake to support anaerobic work and you're still a low-carb athlete. Anyone that eats only 10% of their calories in a given day from carbohydrate (whether they take in 50g or 150g of carbohydrate) is STILL a low-carb/ketogenic dieter AND is getting enough CHO to fuel their performance. Are you disputing this?0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.
But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.
Some will thrive on low carb some won't.
Some will thrive on high carb some won't.
Surely we all understand that?0
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