Ketosis and nutrient-intake

Springfield1970

You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!

How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.

20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.

No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.

I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.

I started carbed running in August 2012.

Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.

I'm 43 with various health adversities.

I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m

You could too.

Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....

I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.

But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.

Some will thrive on low carb some won't.

Some will thrive on high carb some won't.

Surely we all understand that?

Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'

Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.

I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.

You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.

It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.

tennisdude2004

You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!

How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.

20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.

No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.

I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.

I started carbed running in August 2012.

Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.

I'm 43 with various health adversities.

I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m

You could too.

Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....

I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.

But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.

Some will thrive on low carb some won't.

Some will thrive on high carb some won't.

Surely we all understand that?

Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'

Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.

I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.

You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.

It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.

I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).

Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.

But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.

It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?

I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.

Springfield1970

You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!

How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.

20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.

No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.

I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.

I started carbed running in August 2012.

Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.

I'm 43 with various health adversities.

I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m

You could too.

Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....

I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.

But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.

Some will thrive on low carb some won't.

Some will thrive on high carb some won't.

Surely we all understand that?

Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'

Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.

I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.

You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.

It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.

I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).

Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.

But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.

It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?

I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.

Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?

It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?

What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!

albertabeefy

I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).

Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.

But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.

It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?

I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.

Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?

It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?

What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!

From what I can see, whether or not to choose keto as an athlete depends greatly on the event, and the individual.

I know some people that literally get nauseous taking gels, glucose drinks, etc. which doesn't do them well in a race... But I strongly believe they're in the small minority.

For those in the ultra-endurance world (regardless of event type) where the vast majority of the event is at sub-maximal output, I think being keto/fat-adapted could offer a great advantage - *IF* they find (with their own testing in advance of the event) that the diet doesn't impair their performance in the first place ...

The annoying thing is there are studies that shows it improves performance, studies that conclude it makes no difference, and studies that show that it impairs performance. There's no consistency which means it seems highly dependent upon the individual and/or their sport.

For the ultra-endurance athletes though, if their even includes hills, sprints, etc., then they have to be a little more calculating with how to handle that, because those efforts CAN require either glycogen stores or circulating glucose to fuel, depending on the length/amount of the effort involved. Getting passed on the hill climb to the finish because you have no fuel SUCKS.

For the non-endurance athlete, I truly do not see any advantage to a ketogenic diet, nor does science show any that I've seen. So unless you've a medical reason to adopt it as an non-endurance athlete, you likely shouldn't even flirt with the idea.

I personally think if you've adopted a ketogenic diet for medical reasons, and you're a competitive athlete, you MUST look into a TARGETED ketogenic diet, or you simply will NOT remain competitive.

Of course, some people aren't overly motivated to "compete", but instead just enjoy the exercise. For those, I say enjoy it on whatever diet you feel happy with, as long as it gives you proper nutrition.

traceywoody

I have a serious question about this - what happens if and when you resume a fully balanced diet?

First, done properly a ketogenic diet is fully-balanced with all the nutrients one needs.

That being said, if you maintain a caloric balance (neither a surplus nor deficit) you'll gain back some water weight as your glycogen stores replenish. That's it.

*IF* you resume over-eating, you'll gain weight. The people who say "you gain all the weight back" are referring to those who over-eat when they go "off" their diet. And that's 90% of dieters REGARDLESS of the type of diet they choose.

Thank you. This makes sense. Thanks to everyone else who answered me too.

Springfield1970

I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).

Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.

But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.

It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?

I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.

Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?

It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?

What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!

From what I can see, whether or not to choose keto as an athlete depends greatly on the event, and the individual.

I know some people that literally get nauseous taking gels, glucose drinks, etc. which doesn't do them well in a race... But I strongly believe they're in the small minority.

For those in the ultra-endurance world (regardless of event type) where the vast majority of the event is at sub-maximal output, I think being keto/fat-adapted could offer a great advantage - *IF* they find (with their own testing in advance of the event) that the diet doesn't impair their performance in the first place ...

The annoying thing is there are studies that shows it improves performance, studies that conclude it makes no difference, and studies that show that it impairs performance. There's no consistency which means it seems highly dependent upon the individual and/or their sport.

For the ultra-endurance athletes though, if their even includes hills, sprints, etc., then they have to be a little more calculating with how to handle that, because those efforts CAN require either glycogen stores or circulating glucose to fuel, depending on the length/amount of the effort involved. Getting passed on the hill climb to the finish because you have no fuel SUCKS.

For the non-endurance athlete, I truly do not see any advantage to a ketogenic diet, nor does science show any that I've seen. So unless you've a medical reason to adopt it as an non-endurance athlete, you likely shouldn't even flirt with the idea.

I personally think if you've adopted a ketogenic diet for medical reasons, and you're a competitive athlete, you MUST look into a TARGETED ketogenic diet, or you simply will NOT remain competitive.

Of course, some people aren't overly motivated to "compete", but instead just enjoy the exercise. For those, I say enjoy it on whatever diet you feel happy with, as long as it gives you proper nutrition.

Joe Friel, the well known triathlete coach advocates not only a periodization pattern for the training, but one for the nutrition as well.

He thinks it a good idea to train the body to be more keto adapted and body fat burning in the early part of the training season, while you are building up your aerobic base.

As the intensity and volume increases, the carbs and glycogen/glucose burning really becomes the icing on the cake for power, strength and sprints.

So your carb intake increases as needs must. It's something I'm trying this year, my macros have been changing since my bulky winter. I wasn't that impressed with the progress I made on my aerobic base, but I never hit anywhere near low enough carbs to keto adapt, so it may have been pointless,but I am going to try a few years (rounds) and keep notes. (shame I'm getting older, but I only started training 2 years ago, so i figure I have a 7 year window before I start slowing or stagnating, wearing my parts out!)

rlengland2014

Can you tell me where you got this graph please yarwell?

iballin

you guys relies Dr Jacob Wilson just did a very controlled proper study on ketogenic vs carbohydrate in trained lifters, ketogenic side lost 4x as much fat while gaining muscle carbohydrate gained abit more muscle ( which may just be glycogen/intramuscular water) since ultra sound measuring would pick that up as size, he gave the results on a podcast yesterday, fitness community is in for a shock , ketogenic diet indeed burns more fat, and want to know the kicker, every male in the keto groups testosterone went up over 100 ng/dl , this will be published data. this is in TRAINED lifters too, very controlled go find the podcast. very interesting stuff, the ketogenic group complained of being flat though, but thats just glycogen depeleted and Jacob uses dexa scanners ect, so the keto group truly lost 4x as much FAT then the carb group. gg