Why do people seem to bash "healthy"eating?

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Replies

  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    reference please?


    in the figure/bodybuilding world, some people who eat chicken and broccoli everyday (not vegan) develop eating disorders, too
    casr in point, who eats "healthier"? PETA vegans or religious Paleos?.

    Religious paleo for sure. PETA includes a list of "accidentally vegan" foods that in another time may have even been called "junk food."

    for sure?


    any scientific journal that is peer reviewed to back this up?

    There are a lot of obese vegans out there, seriously. Nathan Winograd springs to mind, but there are many others simply because they have so many foods that are high in carbs that make up their diet. In addition, those that are not fat are often orthorexic. Vegans often (but not always) have an unhealthy relationship with their food because they attach their personal and moral value to the food that they eat. Then there is the whole B12 argument . . . I would have to say that paleo eaters are probably marginally healthier, at least in terms of their relationship with food.

    and yes, relationship.with food is.troubled and is not exclusive to vegans.

    chicken and broccoli or tilapia and asparagus eaters in the fitness.industry are having problem in relation to food. and some.of them.develop hate for.carbs...
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    it was actually meant as a rhetorical question.

    Yes, and as a non-PETA vegan, I found your rhetorical question answerable. I do believe some people are healthier than others. Without individual variation for things like eating disorders, if we compare groups following diets for health versus ethics, there's a great chance the group following it for health is going to be ... healthier.
  • scubasuenc
    scubasuenc Posts: 626 Member
    Part of the reason people on MFP 'bash' healthy eating is that we are sick and tired of being told what to eat.

    My biggest health problem is my weight. I have too much of it, and I need to lose it. I have successfully lost 75+ pounds eating non-organic, processed, everyday American foods. I count my calories and I manage my macro and micro nutrients. I don't worry about whether or not I knew the farmer that raised the chickens that laid the eggs I ate for breakfast.

    I eat the same types of foods that I did before, but I limit my portions. Other foods I avoid because they don't provide the nutritional gains for the calories.

    At the end of the day, all I care about is losing the weight and getting fitter. That will make me healthier. If you want to eat clean, however you define it, that is fine. If you want to be a vegan, vegetarian, or paleo eater that is fine too. Just stop telling me that I'm going to fail at losing weight and die if I don't eat the same way you do.

    Guess what, no one gets out of this life alive. I'm going to die no matter what I eat.
  • tierra85
    tierra85 Posts: 300 Member
    I've been going through lots of posts, and I see this very often: "It doesn't matter what you eat, losing weight is a matter of taking in fewer calories than you use" or "If it fits your macros, then all is fine". Isn't losing weight a part of getting healthy (or healthier) for most people? If that assumption is true (and after reading some of these posts, I'm not sure it is), then why does everyone say it is OK to eat all the processed foods that are in the American diet and has lead us, as a nation, to be the fattest industrialized nation on earth? And we know obesity contributes to diabetes, heart disease, stroke....not exactly what I would call healthy.

    I'm not advocating not having a treat if you want it (this from someone who had some chocolate ice cream last night). But I don't see how eating fast foods and processed foods in the quantities offered out there can possibly be healthy. And so many people on MFP don't just say it is OK, but seem to encourage their consumption.

    Just wondering.....

    I completely agree with you. A comment made that I can also agree with is that it's better if someone eats junk food within their calorie limit vs eating healthy which leads them to giving up completely. I work part time at an organic market, and the amount of people that come in and tell me their stories of all the diseases they've cured through clean, healthy foods absolutely amazes me. I've seen with my own eyes people cure their cancer. I have heaps of retired folks using diet to decrease arthritis symptoms (among other things as well). One lady i know has MS and she went from a wheelchair and constantly in pain to walking on her own. Her diet change was quite intense, but she speaks of no regrets. Digestive issues, migraines, ect. The list goes on. I personally have put my psoriasis into remission for a full year by the changes i made to my diet. Again, everyone is in charge of their own life and what works for them is what they should do. But i must say it is really nice to meet someone who shares the same views/relationship with food that i do. If you have netflix i reckon you'd really enjoy watching vegucated, food inc., forks over knives, king corn, food matters, hungry for change, and fat, sick and nearly dead. There are more but I've only seen those ones so far :)
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    it was actually meant as a rhetorical question.

    Yes, and as a non-PETA vegan, I found your rhetorical question answerable. I do believe some people are healthier than others. Without individual variation for things like eating disorders, if we compare groups following diets for health versus ethics, there's a great chance the group following it for health is going to be ... healthier.


    that being your.opinion, I would love to see.your.reply to poster who said that paleo is healthier and said there are a lot of obese vegans
  • jmv7117
    jmv7117 Posts: 891 Member
    No one bashes healthy eating. They just define it differently than you do. The definitions looks so different because some define based on science, and others on information they get from documentaries, and daytime television, and the like.

    But they do bash healthy eating. Sometimes those who are eating clean, eating healthy, eating Paleo or eating vegetarian get tired of the bashing. I have not seen the 'preaching' that this is the only way to eat that anyone not buying into the 'eat whatever you want' are accused of here but I have seen the bashing of anyone who even remotely mentions they don't want to or don't eat a particular food. I don't get it. I'm on the clean eating spectrum and certainly don't push my dietary choices on others yet others feel the need to bash as soon as I or anyone else eating anything but the SAD comments on any of these types of threads. I'm sure there are many members here not eating the SAD and really don't care what others eat. In my opinion, it is none of my business what anyone else eats and I'm not responsible for what they eat. It's too bad the bashing happens but it does.
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    it actually made.me.chuckle that it.was answered which validates that what people think is."healthy" is.due to personak bias than something that is science-based

    Did you know I am a vegan, and does that change your personal bias?

    If I had to bet on the outcome of a scientific study based on your rhetorical question, I wouldn't change my answer. Can I promise you I'm right? No. My "for sure" wasn't meant to indicate scientific peer reviewed authority. I will make sure to make that distinction next time.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    Vegans and Orthorexia:

    http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6442471029

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.02.01/eating1-0131.html

    http://www.orthorexia.com/what-is-orthorexia/

    http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/orthorexia/orthorexia-1a.shtml

    http://www.disabled-world.com/health/eating-disorders/orthorexia.php

    http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=150389

    And from the other side:

    http://www.rawveganradio.com/healthy-eaters-have-an-eating-disorder/


    Not saying which side is right, but which sounds more rational and reasoned? ;)
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    that being your.opinion, I would love to see.your.reply to poster who said that paleo is healthier and said there are a lot of obese vegans

    Meh, is my reply. There are obese vegans. There are obese omnivores. Any diet without sufficient attention paid to nutrients will be potentially inadequate. I'd argue my relationship with food is no more or less healthy than anyone else's based on personal values because to ignore my personal values would actually harm my mental well-being. That's as personal and individual as say ... religion.
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    this!

    personally, I dont follow a diet. I base what I eat on the macro and micronutrients that I am able to get.from.food and try to enjoy.food as is. restricting foods and demonizing them, imo, is inviting unhealthy relationship with food.

    but if I.were to be asked about my diet, I wont say vegan, paleo
    , primal, atkins...

    my diet is 70% filipino and asian food (heavy on rice and meat with lots of veggies and fruits), 20% american food, 10% others

    I violate both vegan and paleo

    Part of the reason people on MFP 'bash' healthy eating is that we are sick and tired of being told what to eat.

    My biggest health problem is my weight. I have too much of it, and I need to lose it. I have successfully lost 75+ pounds eating non-organic, processed, everyday American foods. I count my calories and I manage my macro and micro nutrients. I don't worry about whether or not I knew the farmer that raised the chickens that laid the eggs I ate for breakfast.

    I eat the same types of foods that I did before, but I limit my portions. Other foods I avoid because they don't provide the nutritional gains for the calories.

    At the end of the day, all I care about is losing the weight and getting fitter. That will make me healthier. If you want to eat clean, however you define it, that is fine. If you want to be a vegan, vegetarian, or paleo eater that is fine too. Just stop telling me that I'm going to fail at losing weight and die if I don't eat the same way you do.

    Guess what, no one gets out of this life alive. I'm going to die no matter what I eat.
  • jmv7117
    jmv7117 Posts: 891 Member
    I think that you completely misunderstood the tone and meaning of my post. Where did I give the indication that I don't like junk food? Where did I give the indication that stereotypically healthy foods taste bad? I'm calling it junk for the sake of fluidity and easy understanding.

    You're one step away from becoming a serious food shamer. Watch it, pal.

    Are you serious? Am I really missing something? Wow, I was just trying to be helpful. :frown: Sorry for offending. I really wasn't trying to, I was just trying to say that telling someone they can still eat their favorite and not entirely the best choice as far as nutrition goes foods and lose weight is really encouraging!

    :laugh: :flowerforyou:

    No, not serious. What you are experiencing is probably pretty similar to what "clean eaters" on MFP often feel.

    ^^^^^THIS
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    orthorexia is also rampant in the fitness industry which loves chicken/broccoli and tilapia/asparagus...NOT vegan
    Vegans and Orthorexia:

    http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6442471029

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.02.01/eating1-0131.html

    http://www.orthorexia.com/what-is-orthorexia/

    http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/orthorexia/orthorexia-1a.shtml

    http://www.disabled-world.com/health/eating-disorders/orthorexia.php

    http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=150389

    And from the other side:

    http://www.rawveganradio.com/healthy-eaters-have-an-eating-disorder/


    Not saying which side is right, but which sounds more rational and reasoned? ;)
  • KnM0107
    KnM0107 Posts: 355 Member
    Everybody bashes everybody...

    I personally eat a wide variety of foods, I meet my macro/micro goals (or as close as possible) and I eat enough calories to maintain my weight. I don't care what other people eat.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    orthorexia is also rampant in the fitness industry which loves chicken/broccoli and tilapia/asparagus...NOT vegan
    Vegans and Orthorexia:

    http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6442471029

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.02.01/eating1-0131.html

    http://www.orthorexia.com/what-is-orthorexia/

    http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/orthorexia/orthorexia-1a.shtml

    http://www.disabled-world.com/health/eating-disorders/orthorexia.php

    http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=150389

    And from the other side:

    http://www.rawveganradio.com/healthy-eaters-have-an-eating-disorder/


    Not saying which side is right, but which sounds more rational and reasoned? ;)

    I never said it was solely a vegan issue. However, the nature of ethical veganism makes people who eat vegan susceptible to it. Basically, anyone who places too much value on the "clean" nature of their food is at risk.
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    which is basically the same.for hardcore paleos (not talking about the only half serious paleos or "paleo" violators)


    again, the chicken/broccoli and tilapia/asparsgus by many fitness and bodybuilding competitors
    des
    orthorexia is also rampant in the fitness industry which loves chicken/broccoli and tilapia/asparagus...NOT vegan
    Vegans and Orthorexia:

    http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6442471029

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.02.01/eating1-0131.html

    http://www.orthorexia.com/what-is-orthorexia/

    http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/orthorexia/orthorexia-1a.shtml

    http://www.disabled-world.com/health/eating-disorders/orthorexia.php

    http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=150389

    And from the other side:

    http://www.rawveganradio.com/healthy-eaters-have-an-eating-disorder/


    Not saying which side is right, but which sounds more rational and reasoned? ;)

    I never said it was solely a vegan issue. However, the nature of ethical veganism makes people who eat vegan susceptible to it. Basically, anyone who places too much value on the "clean" nature of their food is at risk.
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    I never said it was solely a vegan issue. However, the nature of ethical veganism makes people who eat vegan susceptible to it. Basically, anyone who places too much value on the "clean" nature of their food is at risk.

    You think someone following paleo religiously isn't placing value judgments on the worth of the foods they choose to eat or not eat?
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    I never said it was solely a vegan issue. However, the nature of ethical veganism makes people who eat vegan susceptible to it. Basically, anyone who places too much value on the "clean" nature of their food is at risk.

    You think someone following paleo religiously isn't placing value judgments on the worth of the foods they choose to eat or not eat?


    I have no clue. All I said was that vegans are prone to it, which they are. Don't like it? Too bad. It's a fact.. I don't know anyone who follows paleo. However, since I am active in the dog fancy, far too many "ethical" vegans have thrust their unwelcome opinions upon me.

    I take it none of the people gearing up for another attack on me have actually followed any of the links I posted?
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    orthorexia, imo, is not caused by a vegan diet but rather by the mentality that you have.to.cut a certain food group because they are deemed unhealthy.

    take for example the demonization of rice by hardcore paleos. interestingly, asia, the land of white rice and wheat based noodle eaters have lower obesity and overweight population.

    what people often forget is the activity level. people here in the west are.so.accustomed.to convenience that even washing dishes by hands are seen as inconvenient.

    public transportation is so convenient is asia that a lot.of.people get non exercise activities.


    I ate.way way more.rice and bread when I was.living in the philippines, and ate at fastfood joints quite frrquently. but I never have.to.count calories to not get fat. I lived.in an area wherr.walking and.climbing stairs.are.a.necessity. never got.fat

    moved to the us, still.ate the same but the lbs were.piling up. what changed? my activity level. the us is too convenient to not.watch how much you eat. I still eat the same but had to exercise for.energy balance
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    I have no clue. All I said was that vegans are prone to it, which they are. Don't like it? Too bad. It's a fact.. I don't know anyone who follows paleo. However, since I am active in the dog fancy, far too many "ethical" vegans have thrust their unwelcome opinions upon me.

    I take it none of the people gearing up for another attack on me have actually followed any of the links I posted?

    No, it's not all you said. You were responding to a debate about who is healthier, vegans or paleo. To get in on that argument, I'd assume you would have a basic understanding of the two groups. If you don't like that assumption, too bad.

    Can you give us more information on the factual nature of vegans being prone to an eating disorder that still hasn't achieved medical recognition?

    Again, how can you say vegans are *more* prone to something if you don't know anything about the other group?
  • _HeartsOnFire_
    _HeartsOnFire_ Posts: 5,304 Member
    Healthy eating IS bashed on here. There is no doubt of that. As to why? I'm not sure.
    I know when some folks here try to explain *why* someone (like me) aims to eat healthy, the reasons they come up with are absurd. I'll assume my reasons for their behaviors would be equally absurd.

    But yes, healthy eating is openly mocked and bashed on here. Moderation (whatever folks mean by that) is the motto of mfp. No one defines it, but it's shouted from the roof tops. If you say "just eat healthy", you'll be hen pecked by folks demanding you define and defend that proclamation.

    Fortunately, there are many GROUPS here where posters discuss the best ways to eat a nutritious diet and lose or maintain their weight.

    Because you have to define healthy, and it's difficult.

    If I have 3 slices of cheese pizza, is that healthy or not? You have no idea because you have to look at my overall diet and health. Same goes with all food. If I say I ate plain baked chicken breast and broccoli, is that healthy? In a vacuum, but not if I left out that I followed that with an ice cream and cookie binge.

    Healthy and unhealthy, like clean and dirty, are almost impossible to define. The only thing people need to do is get their micro and macro nutrients. If that is achieved, they are healthy. The sources for those are irrelevant.
    So it's bashed? That's a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
    It's the daily argument: there's no objective definition therefore we mock, we bash, we berate.
    But not for "moderation". That one is just fine. lol. and IIFYM, of course (we don't know what your macros are, or what you eat, but IIFYM you're awesome).
    Someone wants pizza, and they are struggling. Why is it bad when someone else suggests they make the pizza, and make it more nutritious. Or choose a more nutritious pizza restaurant. But not bad when 20 people say: eat the pizza and then work out?
    This is a bizarre joint sometimes.

    I see both sides getting bashed on these boards every day. Seriously, both sides get bashed.
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member

    No, it's not all you said. You were responding to a debate about who is healthier, vegans or paleo. To get in on that argument, I'd assume you would have a basic understanding of the two groups. If you don't like that assumption, too bad.

    Can you give us more information on the factual nature of vegans being prone to an eating disorder that still hasn't achieved medical recognition?

    Again, how can you say vegans are *more* prone to something if you don't know anything about the other group?

    Whatever.
  • SymphonynSonata
    SymphonynSonata Posts: 533 Member
    Edit because it's ridiculous.
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    Whatever.

    Thought so.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member

    No, it's not all you said. You were responding to a debate about who is healthier, vegans or paleo. To get in on that argument, I'd assume you would have a basic understanding of the two groups. If you don't like that assumption, too bad.

    Can you give us more information on the factual nature of vegans being prone to an eating disorder that still hasn't achieved medical recognition?

    Again, how can you say vegans are *more* prone to something if you don't know anything about the other group?

    Whatever.

    ^^^^^^^ debate winner!
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    orthorexia, imo, is not caused by a vegan diet but rather by the mentality that you have.to.cut a certain food group because they are deemed unhealthy.

    take for example the demonization of rice by hardcore paleos. interestingly, asia, the land of white rice and wheat based noodle eaters have lower obesity and overweight population.

    what people often forget is the activity level. people here in the west are.so.accustomed.to convenience that even washing dishes by hands are seen as inconvenient.

    public transportation is so convenient is asia that a lot.of.people get non exercise activities.

    Okay, actually read what I said. I said that ethical vegans were prone to orthorexia because they attach moral significance and personal value to what they eat. I also made it clear that they were not the only ones who were prone to it, but that anyone who had the same mindset was at risk. Why do you think I am constantly reminding people that we need to have a healthy psychological relationship with food? Have you read any of my posts in this thread at all?

    However, if I had to tip the scale in favor of health toward either side, I would still reply that I think that paleo eaters are marginally healthier, since there is the vitamin B12 issue with vegan eating. If you were not setting up your question as an actual choice, then why pose it at all? If you meant it as a rhetorical question, then why not state that at the outset?
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    Whatever.

    Thought so.

    I am not getting drawn into another argument. I stated several times that vegans were not the only ones with the issue. It's up to you to read the articles I linked to. So, I repeat, "whatever." Nothing I say will make you less offended unless you choose to be and it will just be a colossal waste of my time. *shrugs* It's really not worth it.
  • SymphonynSonata
    SymphonynSonata Posts: 533 Member
    orthorexia, imo, is not caused by a vegan diet but rather by the mentality that you have.to.cut a certain food group because they are deemed unhealthy.

    take for example the demonization of rice by hardcore paleos. interestingly, asia, the land of white rice and wheat based noodle eaters have lower obesity and overweight population.

    what people often forget is the activity level. people here in the west are.so.accustomed.to convenience that even washing dishes by hands are seen as inconvenient.

    public transportation is so convenient is asia that a lot.of.people get non exercise activities.

    Okay, actually read what I said. I said that ethical vegans were prone to orthorexia because they attach moral significance and personal value to what they eat. I also made it clear that they were not the only ones who were prone to it, but that anyone who had the same mindset was at risk. Why do you think I am constantly reminding people that we need to have a healthy psychological relationship with food? Have you read any of my posts in this thread at all?

    However, if I had to tip the scale in favor of health toward either side, I would still reply that I think that paleo eaters are marginally healthier, since there is the vitamin B12 issue with vegan eating. If you were not setting up your question as an actual choice, then why pose it at all? If you meant it as a rhetorical question, then why not state that at the outset?

    http://www.naturalnews.com/033698_spirulina_superfood.html
  • chloematilds
    chloematilds Posts: 111 Member
    the same can be argued about HARDCORE paleos and HARDCORE Atkins followers. some even go as fat.as.demonizing.fruits just because they have carbs or fructose...forgetting that many fruits contain essential micronutrients, too



    orthorexia, imo, is not caused by a vegan diet but rather by the mentality that you have.to.cut a certain food group because they are deemed unhealthy.

    take for example the demonization of rice by hardcore paleos. interestingly, asia, the land of white rice and wheat based noodle eaters have lower obesity and overweight population.

    what people often forget is the activity level. people here in the west are.so.accustomed.to convenience that even washing dishes by hands are seen as inconvenient.

    public transportation is so convenient is asia that a lot.of.people get non exercise activities.

    Okay, actually read what I said. I said that ethical vegans were prone to orthorexia because they attach moral significance and personal value to what they eat. I also made it clear that they were not the only ones who were prone to it, but that anyone who had the same mindset was at risk. Why do you think I am constantly reminding people that we need to have a healthy psychological relationship with food? Have you read any of my posts in this thread at all?

    However, if I had to tip the scale in favor of health toward either side, I would still reply that I think that paleo eaters are marginally healthier, since there is the vitamin B12 issue with vegan eating. If you were not setting up your question as an actual choice, then why pose it at all? If you meant it as a rhetorical question, then why not state that at the outset?
  • LoupGarouTFTs
    LoupGarouTFTs Posts: 916 Member
    the same can be argued about HARDCORE paleos and HARDCORE Atkins followers. some even go as fat.as.demonizing.fruits just because they have carbs or fructose...forgetting that many fruits contain essential micronutrients, too



    orthorexia, imo, is not caused by a vegan diet but rather by the mentality that you have.to.cut a certain food group because they are deemed unhealthy.

    take for example the demonization of rice by hardcore paleos. interestingly, asia, the land of white rice and wheat based noodle eaters have lower obesity and overweight population.

    what people often forget is the activity level. people here in the west are.so.accustomed.to convenience that even washing dishes by hands are seen as inconvenient.

    public transportation is so convenient is asia that a lot.of.people get non exercise activities.

    Okay, actually read what I said. I said that ethical vegans were prone to orthorexia because they attach moral significance and personal value to what they eat. I also made it clear that they were not the only ones who were prone to it, but that anyone who had the same mindset was at risk. Why do you think I am constantly reminding people that we need to have a healthy psychological relationship with food? Have you read any of my posts in this thread at all?

    However, if I had to tip the scale in favor of health toward either side, I would still reply that I think that paleo eaters are marginally healthier, since there is the vitamin B12 issue with vegan eating. If you were not setting up your question as an actual choice, then why pose it at all? If you meant it as a rhetorical question, then why not state that at the outset?

    Just because you keep pulling out new examples doesn't make my statement any less right. As I said. Read all of my posts in this thread arguing for a healthy psychological relationship with food. Nothing changed when the word "vegan" was mentioned, unless it was vegans protesting that they're fine and anyway there are other people who are just as bad.
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    Whatever.

    Thought so.

    I am not getting drawn into another argument. I stated several times that vegans were not the only ones with the issue. It's up to you to read the articles I linked to. So, I repeat, "whatever." Nothing I say will make you less offended unless you choose to be and it will just be a colossal waste of my time. *shrugs* It's really not worth it.

    I'm not offended. I'm disagreeing with your argument. This won't be the first time I've said it: I would be vegan if you could prove to me that it was less healthy than the Standard American Diet, because it is about my personal value system. Most religious people I know wouldn't change their food based customs based on being told they are less mentally healthy. So tell me again, who are ethical vegans more orthorexic than? I don't think your opinion is offensive, I think you're wrong.

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