But I love meat!!!

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  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    (When you guys are done with this particular discussion...(which strangely enough, I think I'm mostly on tennis' side of this one)...don't forget about the unresolved questions a few pages back re environmental impact of pastured grass-fed/finished beef vs. similar calories of crops.)

    No ideas on that one I'm afraid. Lol

    (Yeah, you weren't the target market for that request. Jonnythan seemed rather knowledgeable about that topic last night, so was interested in what he knew about this latest wrinkle in the equation.)
  • chadwick175
    chadwick175 Posts: 34 Member
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    Good luck its hard to give up meat. I have zero advice cause I have yet to do it but good luck!
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    Good luck its hard to give up meat. I have zero advice cause I have yet to do it but good luck!


    I just can't wrap my mind around why someone would make total abstinence a goal?*


    (* barring a moral/ethical conviction which I can't personally wrap my mind around either, but know that there are people who do and I completely accept that.)
  • cathylopez1975
    cathylopez1975 Posts: 191 Member
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    I also have tricuspid valve problems, which is unusual. I had severe regurgitation which was discovered 3 years ago. At that time I was 234 lbs. with type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol. Interestingly enough, my cardiologist never suggested that I lose weight or change my diet drastically. I had an EKG, MRI, and cardiac catheterization (where they also checked for coronary artery blockages which weren't there). For me, diet and exercise would have done nothing for the problem because it was a bad valve from birth - congenital - Ebsteins Anomoly. I had valve repair done but am again dealing with severe regurgitation and will need valve replacement surgery eventually.

    A year later - Sept. 1, 2012 - I started working with a registered dietitian and a balanced 1200-1400 diet and have since lost 94 lbs. and weigh 140. I'm still type 2 diabetic (but under control) and have high cholesterol (which actually borderline high now) even with a much better diet with very little processed food. I still eat meat but definitely do fish 3-5 times a week, and also eat a very limited amount of cheese.

    When I saw my cardiologist in January, he was really happy with the lost weight and said it will make my heart not have to work so hard. But losing the weight didn't fix the tricuspid valve - it's worse than it was.

    Lots of luck with your heart issues. And I hope you are able to get a handle on how to eat for your heart health. If you can find a good registered dietitian it would be quite helpful. That really helped me.
  • _Terrapin_
    _Terrapin_ Posts: 4,302 Member
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    Second opinion?!? Are there any other cardiologists around?
  • mccindy72
    mccindy72 Posts: 7,001 Member
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    My cardiologist says if it does not swim or grow from the ground I CANNOT eat it. The nerve of her :noway: but I've decided to take her advice (after months of defiance) & today is my first day as a pescatarian. This is my May Challenge & I gladly accept :smile: !

    I'd definitely get a second opinion. There are so many lean varieties of meat, I find it hard to believe that a cardiologist worth her salt would advise you to give up a valuable source of protein.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    I said you would have serious trouble supporting the assertion that high cholesterol is not bad.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    Options
    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    (When you guys are done with this particular discussion...(which strangely enough, I think I'm mostly on tennis' side of this one)...don't forget about the unresolved questions a few pages back re environmental impact of pastured grass-fed/finished beef vs. similar calories of crops.)

    No ideas on that one I'm afraid. Lol

    (Yeah, you weren't the target market for that request. Jonnythan seemed rather knowledgeable about that topic last night, so was interested in what he knew about this latest wrinkle in the equation.)

    I've been busy the past few days, sorry. I don't know the details of the research methodolgy or analysis, but it seems safe to me to assume that "but that land can't be used for farming anyway" has been considered. I invite you to explore the question on your own, as it is a good one. Of course, besides land use there's also the energy and water use side of the equation, which are arguably even more significant than simple land use.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    I said you would have serious trouble supporting the assertion that high cholesterol is not bad.

    And I would not make that assertion without following it up with a statement about oxidation and inflammation - oh but wait I did - you just chose to take that one line quote out of context.

    So do you have an answer to my question regarding LDL's being dangerous if they are not oxidised?
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    I said you would have serious trouble supporting the assertion that high cholesterol is not bad.

    And I would not make that assertion without following it up with a statement about oxidation and inflammation - oh but wait I did - you just chose to take that one line quote out of context.

    So do you have an answer to my question regarding LDL's being dangerous if they are not oxidised?

    Saying you would have trouble supporting a statement wasn't an invitation to ask me questions about other topics.

    There is some merit to the idea that total serum cholesterol itself isn't a very good predictor of heart disease, and that cholesterol ratios matter significantly more.

    However, total cholesterol is still a significant risk factor. If you have quality literature that establishes that total cholesterol is indeed not a risk, I'd honestly appreciate it if you shared it.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad

    I think you would have serious trouble supporting this assertion.

    Okay, I'll bite.

    So are LDL particles which have not been oxidised dangerous?

    I said you would have serious trouble supporting the assertion that high cholesterol is not bad.

    And I would not make that assertion without following it up with a statement about oxidation and inflammation - oh but wait I did - you just chose to take that one line quote out of context.

    So do you have an answer to my question regarding LDL's being dangerous if they are not oxidised?

    Saying you would have trouble supporting a statement wasn't an invitation to ask me questions about other topics.

    There is some merit to the idea that total serum cholesterol itself isn't a very good predictor of heart disease, and that cholesterol ratios matter significantly more.

    However, total cholesterol is still a significant risk factor. If you have quality literature that establishes that total cholesterol is indeed not a risk, I'd honestly appreciate it if you shared it.

    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?

    I'm saying that high serum cholesterol is a risk factor for disease and is indeed bad.

    I have said nothing about unoxidised LDL particles, nor will I say anything on the topic in this thread.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?

    I'm saying that high serum cholesterol is a risk factor for disease and is indeed bad.

    I have said nothing about unoxidised LDL particles, nor will I say anything on the topic in this thread.

    Just what I thought.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?

    I'm saying that high serum cholesterol is a risk factor for disease and is indeed bad.

    I have said nothing about unoxidised LDL particles, nor will I say anything on the topic in this thread.

    Just what I thought.

    Cool.

    So, I was serious. Do you have any quality literature that is convincing establishing that high total cholesterol is definitely not a problem?

    This entire conversation started because you said high cholesterol wasn't itself a problem. I'm interested if you have any data to support that. If you do, please share it.
  • sweetpea03b
    sweetpea03b Posts: 1,124 Member
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    Chuck a cow in a lake... it's swimming!! Eat it!!

    Hm... or would it just sink? I feel like i've read somewhere of cows dying when it floods because they can't swim?
  • kristinegift
    kristinegift Posts: 2,406 Member
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    Red meats are high in saturated fat, and that's not great for your heart. But I don't know why you'd be advised against chicken/turkey too... nutritionists usually recommend poultry and fish to replace red meats to maintain a more fat-balanced diet to promote heart health.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
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    OP came back and said the suggestion was only made because she was overweight and has nothing to do with cholesterol or most anything else debated in this thread.

    In for more responses.

    OP - eat at a moderate caloric deficit, and eat the foods that keep you satiated to meet your calorie goals. Focus on whole foods and incorporate the foods you enjoy eating. It won't be sustainable if you cut out foods that you love (especially with no reason except the diet works for someone else).
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?

    I'm saying that high serum cholesterol is a risk factor for disease and is indeed bad.

    I have said nothing about unoxidised LDL particles, nor will I say anything on the topic in this thread.

    Just what I thought.

    Cool.

    So, I was serious. Do you have any quality literature that is convincing establishing that high total cholesterol is definitely not a problem?

    This entire conversation started because you said high cholesterol wasn't itself a problem. I'm interested if you have any data to support that. If you do, please share it.

    I do like it when you add words and twist statements jonny (its kinase the measure of you).

    I think if you read the whole post I wrote and take one line out of context (and also add words to it) then my view should be clear.

    I would be interested if you have any studies showing that a high cholesterol level on a healthy diet (low in inflammatory and oxidation prop foods) is bad .

    Still I doubt that will happen either. Lol
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    Options
    Okay, so you are you saying higher levels of cholesterol are bad if you are on a diet which is healthy and low in foods which are inflammatory and oxidation?

    And are high levels of unoxidised LDL particles bad?

    I'm saying that high serum cholesterol is a risk factor for disease and is indeed bad.

    I have said nothing about unoxidised LDL particles, nor will I say anything on the topic in this thread.

    Just what I thought.

    Cool.

    So, I was serious. Do you have any quality literature that is convincing establishing that high total cholesterol is definitely not a problem?

    This entire conversation started because you said high cholesterol wasn't itself a problem. I'm interested if you have any data to support that. If you do, please share it.

    I do like it when you add words and twist statements jonny (its kinase the measure of you).

    I think if you read the whole post I wrote and take one line out of context (and also add words to it) then my view should be clear.

    I would be interested if you have any studies showing that a high cholesterol level on a healthy diet (low in inflammatory and oxidation prop foods) is bad .

    Still I doubt that will happen either. Lol

    Here is your statement:

    "High cholesterol levels in itself are not bad"

    Here is my question:

    "Do you have any quality literature that is convincing establishing that high total cholesterol is definitely not a problem?"

    I'm honestly not sure what words I've added. Feel free to modify the question as you see fit.

    I would like to see some scientific literature or data establishing the truth of your quoted statement. I'm not trying to trick you. I'm trying to learn.

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