How do you feel about fat pride?
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^huh?
and 'judging' ... they just did studies with babies on it regarding them feeling comfortable around different races, and they all exhibited strong strong traits of judging - its part of our survival instinct..
Not saying its good or great, but its an inherent trait.. now discriminating - that is an ill-mannered action from judging and that is wrong.
..but judging itself? ...pulleasse :P I didn't rock a brooks brothers suit and this new Johnson&Murphy belt and ferragamo kicks today because I just like them.. I like the attention I get from them..
*shrug*
We all get general impressions of people when we see them based on past experiences. But I generally wait until they've interacted with me on a personal level before I form any sort of opinion (judgement).
The problem that I have is sweeping generalizations. Like "fat people are lazy" - that's just okay with me.
Gotcha.. thats a good way to interact with people. :flowerforyou:0 -
Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in here
... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
I call bull on having a degree in marketing, because:
1. You can't type a coherent sentence.
2. No marketer in their right minds would act the way you act online. It's a brand image problem just waiting to happen.
That is all.
Paige I'm not a marketer, I'm a salesman.
And I type fast to keep up withall the wit that comes flying out of my fingers.. just work with me here.
and yeah I got a degree in marketing and economics.. took 5 years.. finished up last summer, FTW!
That's funny. I type pretty fast as well and I can manage a sentence without a typo. Just saying....
What exactly do you sell? I'm just curious because sales people have to market themselves and they don't typically like to offend broad segments of people, either.0 -
I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I mostly agree with you here (sorry, my mom is having major surgery tomorrow - I'm using you guys to distract me and maybe I'm a mess).
We do need a support system in place, free of judgement. We also need to look at the relationship between poverty and obesity. Did you know that fast food restaurants are densely packed in in poverty stricken areas? And the selection of fresh fuits and vegetables is considerably smaller? We need to teach people how to make good choices, what it means to eat healthy and make sure they have options.0 -
Also, just so everyone here is clear, ScottieJM can offend virtually every woman on this site countless times, but I got a strike for calling him out on his marketing degree. Wow, Scottie. Thin skin much?0
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Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in here ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
I call bull on having a degree in marketing, because:
1. You can't type a coherent sentence.
2. No marketer in their right minds would act the way you act online. It's a brand image problem just waiting to happen.
That is all.
Paige I'm not a marketer, I'm a salesman.
And I type fast to keep up withall the wit that comes flying out of my fingers.. just work with me here.
and yeah I got a degree in marketing and economics.. took 5 years.. finished up last summer, FTW!
That's funny. I type pretty fast as well and I can manage a sentence without a typo. Just saying....
What exactly do you sell? I'm just curious because sales people have to market themselves and they don't typically like to offend broad segments of people, either.
I sell myself first.
Then I sell an idea.
And I'm not delving into personal stuff on a public forum like that...
#alreadycontentdatingmydreamgirl
Also.. I think I might make some spelling errors because I have really bad hearing problems in my left ear believe it or not.. -_- lots of ear problems as a kid and I don't hear too great out of it so I just memorized words in my head pronounced a lil funny and then it comes out spelled a lil odd occasionally.0 -
Also, just so everyone here is clear, ScottieJM can offend virtually every woman on this site countless times, but I got a strike for calling him out on his marketing degree. Wow, Scottie. Thin skin much?
Wait? What does that even mean? I was just teasing back with you?!
edit: and what do you mean offend virtually every woman on this site?! I get friend request from women on here all the time!? I like to think of myself as a gentleman... sure I need to grow up a lil, but I acknowledge that and am actually seeking improvement...and in my personal life.. I mean things have never been greater...!0 -
@TheVirgoddess: i'm trying!:flowerforyou:
Now, when you say "trying," do you mean "attempting" or do you mean "extremely annoying, difficult, or the like; straining one's patience and goodwill to the limit: a trying day; a trying experience"?
Oh, I knew pages ago that you were a Libertarian. Comments about flights and medical costs were not directed toward you specifically. I was simply suggesting that those using the "people who are overfat cost me money" excuse for cutting comments about the overweight often choose to participate in systems in which they pool their resources with people who make choices they might not agree with. And that not doing so ALSO involves costs, usually more weighty (pun only slightly intended) than pooling those resources do.
Not that it matters when it comes to this conversation, but just for accuracy's sake...I am not a bro. :laugh:
Since most medical centers use BMI as a primary indicator or obesity, what is medically classified as obesity falls into quite a wide range -- and the BMI is not a great indicator of actual health. I know what "obese" means medically, and there are plenty of people who fall into the obese range according to the BMI that are healthy, attractive, and not in the least bit smelly.
That being said, you're entitled to your opinion. After all, it's your opinion about reality -- you don't have the power to actually shape reality, just to comment on your perspective of it. I mean, my opinion might be that your attitude and mode of expression are "repulsive," but again, that's opinion based on a very narrow experience of you. You might be the nicest fellow in the world, and your personality might be more attractive to me if I had a wider experience of you than your comments in this thread. Thus, while I might be developing an opinion of you based on the very little I see, it by no means follows that your self-worth ought to be formed in any way by my opinion. And since I know my perspective is limited, I choose not to make a broader judgment of you at this time. It would be unjust for me to do so, and I'd rather focus on the things that I see that are positive. For example, it is very difficult to recover from drug addiction. That says to me that you have the strength of will to make course corrections when what you are doing is ultimately counter-productive and harmful to self and others. And that impresses me -- not everyone can finds a way out of that emotional and chemical dependency. You've clearly made changes for the better, and you're clearly focused on self-improvement.
My experiences are different than yours, so I have a different perspective than yours. Having a systemic endocrine disorder that incapacitated me for weeks at a time and caused me to gain weight despite being very self-controlled, I also know that things aren't always so simple. It wasn't until I was diagnosed (after years of struggling) and received hormone treatment that I was able to start dropping weight, and then my natural habits started working in my favor.
There may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose. I am not the thought police any more than I am the weight police or the personal choice police. And there would have been a time in the past when your opinion would have hurt my feelings, but the wonderful thing is that I've finally grown past the point in my life where others' opinions threaten my self-worth. That is not an easy place for anyone to reach, and I think that is the starting point for true health. So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth.
In my opinion, when you say a person IS fat or IS obese, and then you say fat/obesity is repulsive...you are defining that person as repulsive. That's not something I would ever do. I don't believe it's loving or helpful. I don't believe it's true (a person can HAVE too much fat, but that doesn't mean that fat encapsulates what s/he IS). And I don't believe it is a mark of strength of character. So I moderate myself accordingly. You and I have a difference of opinion. That doesn't impact me. And I don't have to live with you, so I have to log in and actually read what you say in order to hear it. If I get annoyed, I can simply stop reading.
I do feel like I ought to point out that I actually made no comments about MY estimation of your ability to be the David of this century. If an equally gifted artist is inspired enough by your physique to chisel it into marble, then that's completely between you and him/her. I prefer watercolors, and I find your pecs less inspiring than the natural beauty around me. I'd prefer to paint a tree. But you don't really care that I don't want to carve the shape of your body into stone, do you?
Frankly, I teased you because you actually seem to WANT to be teased...and I hate to disappoint. As you said, you LIKE the attention.0 -
@TheVirgoddess: i'm trying!:flowerforyou:
Now, when you say "trying," do you mean "attempting" or do you mean "extremely annoying, difficult, or the like; straining one's patience and goodwill to the limit: a trying day; a trying experience"?
Oh, I knew pages ago that you were a Libertarian. Comments about flights and medical costs were not directed toward you specifically. I was simply suggesting that those using the "people who are overfat cost me money" excuse for cutting comments about the overweight often choose to participate in systems in which they pool their resources with people who make choices they might not agree with. And that not doing so ALSO involves costs, usually more weighty (pun only slightly intended) than pooling those resources do.
Not that it matters when it comes to this conversation, but just for accuracy's sake...I am not a bro. :laugh:
Since most medical centers use BMI as a primary indicator or obesity, what is medically classified as obesity falls into quite a wide range -- and the BMI is not a great indicator of actual health. I know what "obese" means medically, and there are plenty of people who fall into the obese range according to the BMI that are healthy, attractive, and not in the least bit smelly.
That being said, you're entitled to your opinion. After all, it's your opinion about reality -- you don't have the power to actually shape reality, just to comment on your perspective of it. I mean, my opinion might be that your attitude and mode of expression are "repulsive," but again, that's opinion based on a very narrow experience of you. You might be the nicest fellow in the world, and your personality might be more attractive to me if I had a wider experience of you than your comments in this thread. Thus, while I might be developing an opinion of you based on the very little I see, it by no means follows that your self-worth ought to be formed in any way by my opinion. And since I know my perspective is limited, I choose not to make a broader judgment of you at this time. It would be unjust for me to do so, and I'd rather focus on the things that I see that are positive. For example, it is very difficult to recover from drug addiction. That says to me that you have the strength of will to make course corrections when what you are doing is ultimately counter-productive and harmful to self and others. And that impresses me -- not everyone can finds a way out of that emotional and chemical dependency. You've clearly made changes for the better, and you're clearly focused on self-improvement.
My experiences are different than yours, so I have a different perspective than yours. Having a systemic endocrine disorder that incapacitated me for weeks at a time and caused me to gain weight despite being very self-controlled, I also know that things aren't always so simple. It wasn't until I was diagnosed (after years of struggling) and received hormone treatment that I was able to start dropping weight, and then my natural habits started working in my favor.
There may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose. I am not the thought police any more than I am the weight police or the personal choice police. And there would have been a time in the past when your opinion would have hurt my feelings, but the wonderful thing is that I've finally grown past the point in my life where others' opinions threaten my self-worth. That is not an easy place for anyone to reach, and I think that is the starting point for true health. So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth.
In my opinion, when you say a person IS fat or IS obese, and then you say fat/obesity is repulsive...you are defining that person as repulsive. That's not something I would ever do. I don't believe it's loving or helpful. I don't believe it's true (a person can HAVE too much fat, but that doesn't mean that fat encapsulates what s/he IS). And I don't believe it is a mark of strength of character. So I moderate myself accordingly. You and I have a difference of opinion. That doesn't impact me. And I don't have to live with you, so I have to log in and actually read what you say in order to hear it. If I get annoyed, I can simply stop reading.
I do feel like I ought to point out that I actually made no comments about MY estimation of your ability to be the David of this century. If an equally gifted artist is inspired enough by your physique to chisel it into marble, then that's completely between you and him/her. I prefer watercolors, and I find your pecs less inspiring than the natural beauty around me. I'd prefer to paint a tree. But you don't really care that I don't want to carve the shape of your body into stone, do you?
Frankly, I teased you because you actually seem to WANT to be teased...and I hate to disappoint. As you said, you LIKE the attention.
I love the attention, and I love that you put the time into putting that together for me.
I sincerely apologize, your right..
"here may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose."
embarrassing to say your right - but you did just give me an entirely new perspective - and I say that genuinely.
:flowerforyou:
"So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth. "
Noble and I want the same, I guess I have not heard it articulated like that previously.
And in *real* life - yeah I'm not actually nearly as candid and devils advocate like at all... I'm just as witty but much more reserved and polite.
Seriously I appreciate that.. very moving for me.0 -
I'm sorry about your stressful situation. Best of luck to her tomorrow.I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I mostly agree with you here (sorry, my mom is having major surgery tomorrow - I'm using you guys to distract me and maybe I'm a mess).
We do need a support system in place, free of judgement. We also need to look at the relationship between poverty and obesity. Did you know that fast food restaurants are densely packed in in poverty stricken areas? And the selection of fresh fuits and vegetables is considerably smaller? We need to teach people how to make good choices, what it means to eat healthy and make sure they have options.
I'm in Europe so healthcare is a bit different here. Some things are familiar to me via various news channels (internet media, tv documentaries, magazines, etc.), but I can't comment on details. I've heard how fast food is cheaper than fresh, healthy veggies etc., which is very unfortunate. I'm also in healthcare myself, in other words acutely aware of the situation. While I think that a society can't just get from people, who work, but it should give to them in bad times, too, the current conditions aren't optimal anymore.
To me this whole fat pride thing goes so much deeper and we can't keep solving the problem people becoming larger by simply producing larger clothes so to speak; the cycle has to be broken at some point, sooner rather than later. And for that to happen, a whole lot of things need to change.
A significant step in my opinion is to have people take more responsibility over their health in general and the whole pill-popping, quick-fix culture needs to stop. Mental health is baked into the discussion as is consumerism, the whole more more more right now and not tomorrow thing. Again, my perspective isn't an average person's.0 -
I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
Of course there are a huge bunch of indirect costs, what are you talking about?
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
Thank you. Of course there are a huge number of costs, direct and indirect. And this is exactly why I have a problem with "Fat Acceptance" (over "Fat Tolerance"). The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I'd take a different view on things. I'd say you're entitled to get as fat as you want, smoke as much as you want, drink as much as you want, tan as much as you want, whatever you want that what makes you happy provided it doesn't hurt other people - but you should pay for your own healthcare / health insurance (or live with the consequences), rather than spreading that cost around to other people. Just my $0.02, but the problem with me having to subsidize other people's costs shouldn't be blamed on their poor health or their poor decision making; it should be blamed on our bloated government and healthcare system that spreads those costs around, rather than putting them on the individual responsible for their own poor health.
Society "creating a support system" sounds all nice, warm and fuzzy, but as a practical matter people are going to do what makes them happy (particularly what makes them happy in the short term), and that's particularly true when you begin to take away the financial consequences of their actions. Likewise, spreading a message that "un-health isn't a great idea", aside from the awkward double negative, isn't exactly going to do a lot. I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of fat people know they aren't in perfect health and that their weight is almost certain to catch up with them at the end of the day. That's like telling a smoker that it's bad for him - you think he doesn't already know that? Even most "fat acceptance" people aren't suggesting that they are as healthy as someone at a "normal" body fat measurement, but rather making a more nuanced argument about the negative effects of yo-yo dieting and the poor chances for long-term success in weight loss.
At the end of the day, I'd say to let people do what they want to do, don't worry so much about what other people do, and to the extent their poor choices affect your wallet, take that up with your bloated government.0 -
I think our healthcare in the Nordic countries is pretty good in comparison with some other places. I don't mind you calling it warm and fuzzy at all; quality of life is great here.I'd take a different view on things. I'd say you're entitled to get as fat as you want, smoke as much as you want, drink as much as you want, tan as much as you want, whatever you want that what makes you happy provided it doesn't hurt other people - but you should pay for your own healthcare / health insurance (or live with the consequences), rather than spreading that cost around to other people. Just my $0.02, but the problem with me having to subsidize other people's costs shouldn't be blamed on their poor health or their poor decision making; it should be blamed on our bloated government and healthcare system that spreads those costs around, rather than putting them on the individual responsible for their own poor health.
Society "creating a support system" sounds all nice, warm and fuzzy, but as a practical matter people are going to do what makes them happy (particularly what makes them happy in the short term), and that's particularly true when you begin to take away the financial consequences of their actions. Likewise, spreading a message that "un-health isn't a great idea", aside from the awkward double negative, isn't exactly going to do a lot. I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of fat people know they aren't in perfect health and that their weight is almost certain to catch up with them at the end of the day. That's like telling a smoker that it's bad for him - you think he doesn't already know that? Even most "fat acceptance" people aren't suggesting that they are as healthy as someone at a "normal" body fat measurement, but rather making a more nuanced argument about the negative effects of yo-yo dieting and the poor chances for long-term success in weight loss.
At the end of the day, I'd say to let people do what they want to do, don't worry so much about what other people do, and to the extent their poor choices affect your wallet, take that up with your bloated government.0 -
I've already stated like 15 times that we all indirectly pay for various expenses for other people - just like we'll all collectively help you (general) if you get cancer, or foodstamps if you lose your job, or unemployment if you get laid off. That's the way our country works. We're a community.
If I believed that obesity was a choice, like smoking (I quit 7 months ago), I'd agree with you. But obesity is not a black and white issue like some of you are making it out to be. It's an issue we're never going to fix it if we keep treating people like they are fat factory cut outs from the same mold - and ignoring the link between poverty and obesity.
People need to stop the "if you tried harder, you'd be less fat" line of thinking - it's far from being that simple in a lot of cases.
The VAST MAJORITY of people would "be less fat if they tried harder". The problem is, tools and funds people have to deal with it vary a lot. From what I've seen on it, fat pride people seem to be trying to re-define beauty and desirability and come from an attitude like: "ah forget it, I'm never going to lose enough weight to look like media's view of what you should look like. Since that is already manufactured anyways, why don't we re-define what "beautiful" is and try to make others change to suit us, and call prejudice on those who protest."0 -
I've already stated like 15 times that we all indirectly pay for various expenses for other people - just like we'll all collectively help you (general) if you get cancer, or foodstamps if you lose your job, or unemployment if you get laid off. That's the way our country works. We're a community.
If I believed that obesity was a choice, like smoking (I quit 7 months ago), I'd agree with you. But obesity is not a black and white issue like some of you are making it out to be. It's an issue we're never going to fix it if we keep treating people like they are fat factory cut outs from the same mold - and ignoring the link between poverty and obesity.
People need to stop the "if you tried harder, you'd be less fat" line of thinking - it's far from being that simple in a lot of cases.
The VAST MAJORITY of people would "be less fat if they tried harder". The problem is, tools and funds people have to deal with it vary a lot. From what I've seen on it, fat pride people seem to be trying to re-define beauty and desirability and come from an attitude like: "ah forget it, I'm never going to lose enough weight to look like media's view of what you should look like. Since that is already manufactured anyways, why don't we re-define what "beautiful" is and try to make others change to suit us, and call prejudice on those who protest."
I feel like you kind of missed my point. Of course most people simply need a better, healthier diet to lose weight. But that's not the root of the issue, which is why I said that we should stop that line of thinking. Counties with a poverty level greater than 35% have obesity rates 145% higher than wealthy counties (this is according to the American Diabetes Association). That's an alarming statistic IMO - and it's something tangible we (society) could focus on to improve obesity rates.
I do agree with you on the tools/funds thing, absolutely - and I'll throw in education. My oldest daughter went to public school when she was in kinder and I would often go up and have lunch with her - many of her classmates would have a bag of doritos and a coke for their lunch from home. It's a learned habit in many cases. Some people just don't know any better. And I don't think it's right to point fingers at them and say "It's your fault you're such a fatty, work harder!" when we haven't given them the tools or education to do so.
I disagree with you on the fat pride thing. I think it's more like people are wanting different ways to define themselves outside of the fat label. Maybe I've not read enough about it (I did hit up wiki and a few of their reference links). Do some people take it a different way and make it about "heck yeah, I'm fat!"? Sure - but I think they are in the minority rather than majority - and I don't really have anything against what they want to do and how they want to live their life. Is it healthy? In most cases, no - but neither is drinking, smoking, driving too fast, being too thin, etc. It's their choice (though if asked, I'd express my concerns, I highly doubt I'd actually be asked, so in the interim I just shut my mouth).0 -
im fat and sexxaaayyyyy as alll hellllll
:smokin:0 -
im fat and sexxaaayyyyy as alll hellllll
:smokin:
You are incredibly lovely.
I'm also sexy and fat.0 -
Fat pride? Pride in being fat? I don't think anyone is truly proud of being fat. I think EVERYONE would rather be thin than fat.
If there is "Fat pride" shouldn't there be "Acne Pride" as well?
This "pride" thing puts additional focus on fat. I question people who have to show their "pride" to others...people who are truly comfortable don't have to shove it in other peoples faces.0 -
While I have no problem being proud about their size, I do have a problem with the "healthy at any size" agenda, and the straight up misinformation it spreads.
Sure, if you're big and you like it, mroe power to you; but it is absolutely NOT right to say that being that size is perfectly healthy. To say that dieting doesn't work and we're 'meant' to be that size is just wrong and can be harmful to those who want to do something about their size.
Thin privilege is not dying at 43 from a heart attack.0 -
HaibaneReki, political correctness means using terminology that people don't find offensive to describe said people. For example, using non-offensive language to describe racial groups.
It is perfectly possible to disagree without using abusive language, so there's no political correctness issue here at all.
aha, I understand - call me medieval, but what I was trying to say is that the more quirks society tolerates and the more it encourages differences the quicker it'll eventually degenerate.
encouiraging differences is bad?0 -
Having pride in ones self image= Awesome!
Promoting obesity= Stupid!0 -
Fat pride? Pride in being fat? I don't think anyone is truly proud of being fat. I think EVERYONE would rather be thin than fat.
If there is "Fat pride" shouldn't there be "Acne Pride" as well?
This "pride" thing puts additional focus on fat. I question people who have to show their "pride" to others...people who are truly comfortable don't have to shove it in other peoples faces.
lmao.
*wishes he thought of this a long time ago*
@Rage_Phish
"encouiraging differences is bad? "
Agree I thought that was nutty as well.0
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