The Myth of the Alpha Male.

Ihatecoldsoup

The examples in his article aren't true examples of an alpha male. An alpha doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

So tell us what a "true" alpha male is.

Gambit or Wolverine. Cyclops is totally beta.

bugaha1

Good read!

ditto

LadyFlexible

While I understand the article's premise, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Dominance hierarchies are a critical part of our subconscious. They have played a critical part in our evolution and in our continued survival.

The article seems to misunderstand the concept. Being an "alpha" isn't a permanent title but rather a kind of outcome of dyadic interactions between men in social situations. It changes in each context as one pack member takes the lead from another when the facts on the ground change.

Without an alpha, social animals (which humans are) would lose critical capabilities as the group frays. We see it everyday when we look at dysfunctional organizations - they lack leadership and consequently lack focus.

He isn't attacking the "real" idea that some people are leaders and some are followers (there are also more dominant women, it's not just a male trait). He's attacking the fake idea that all these 22 year olds spout that you are either "alpha" or "beta" and that you have to do certain things to become "more alpha".

No, he really is attaching the real idea:

"But it’s based on bad science. "

Except... its not based on bad science.

But it is. Sort of. Yes, some people are natural leaders. These type of people have been important in human society, culture and evolution. But there isn't just ONE male that is dominant in every group. There isn't a physical struggle for this dominance, etc. It's much more complex than just a "wolf pack".

I love you! Though chain starter has a point. It's based situation to situation

the_great_beyond_

What I agree with:

- PUA is BS. Most of it is based on an oversimplification of human psychology and anecdotal evidence. It is target to the socially incompetent and insecure. They are to social interaction what people who buy into juicing are to weight loss.
- People misunderstand basic concepts of dominance hierarchies... ironically, so does the author.

What I disagree with:
- There is no such thing as a dominant alpha in society. His link on "debunked" science misses the fact that reproductive success is critically tied to social hierarchy... in most species, mating is preceded by fighting off or subjugating competition... which is precisely what an alpha male is expected to do
- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.

SunofaBeach14

Let me add that as a 41 year old man, I think the alpha and beta BS is just that, BS, but young men have to learn and grow and yea, they're going to sound like d-bags as they go through that process. Hopefully, they have fathers who know how to be fathers and they get their heads handed to them when they get too far out of line. I'm frankly tired of reading full-bore apologies for being male. It's been done to death. This one used a mental health system break down as an excuse and I don't have much respect for the author for missing that very critical part. Crazy people post crazy manifestos. No surprise there.

Sweetout

The examples in his article aren't true examples of an alpha male. An alpha doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

So tell us what a "true" alpha male is.

He-man

BigDougie1211

have to say, I could probably take an hour or so and deconstruct this article paragraph by paragraph.
But it's Friday afternoon and I leave work soon.
I think the message of " respect yourself and respect others " is a good one, but how he get's there is a somewhat twisted and windy road.
My own experience of the Alpha Male is , as I think has been mentioned , shifting.
I know guys who are very quiet and reserved 90% of the time, but are absolute dominant leaders when they get onto a football pitch.
In those circumstances - they are clearly the Alpha male.
I also know guys who are loud brash and hugely outgoing, but no-one fals in behind them because of it.
If their talents / traits suit the situation, they will be cast in the Alpha role for the duration.
Also I would question the combining of the alpha male, the pick up artist and the MRA into one delightful package.
I think these are 3 very distinct personalities and the only link between them is the Y Chromosome.
As I said, I culd probably write a long winded and involved diatribe, but what the author fails to point out is that an *kitten* is an *kitten* - Y Chromosome or not.

delicious_cocktail

FINALLY SOMOENE HASE THE COURAGE TO SAY SOMETHNG CRITICAL OF PICK-UP ARTISTS. HIP HIP HOOREY! THEY HAVE ENJOED FAR TOO <MUCH CREDIBILITY FOR FAR TOO LONG AND ITS VERY BRAVE OF SOMEONE TO CALL THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

LadyFlexible

What I agree with:

- PUA is BS. Most of it is based on an oversimplification of human psychology and anecdotal evidence. It is target to the socially incompetent and insecure. They are to social interaction what people who buy into juicing are to weight loss.
- People misunderstand basic concepts of dominance hierarchies... ironically, so does the author.

What I disagree with:
- There is no such thing as a dominant alpha in society. His link on "debunked" science misses the fact that reproductive success is critically tied to social hierarchy... in most species, mating is preceded by fighting off or subjugating competition... which is precisely what an alpha male is expected to do
- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.

I half disagree with the shooter part. While yes, he was mentally. I don't think it is soley responsible. I think it did play a role. Mentally ill people spoke as he did obviously don't handle the thought of complex concepts well and the black and white ideals of the "Alpha Male" made well for him even if it is somewhat false.

SrJoben

Well that was long and rambling...recommend skipping to last subheading, which isn't terrible.

Ihatecoldsoup

FINALLY SOMOENE HASE THE COURAGE TO SAY SOMETHNG CRITICAL OF PICK-UP ARTISTS. HIP HIP HOOREY! THEY HAVE ENJOED FAR TOO <MUCH CREDIBILITY FOR FAR TOO LONG AND ITS VERY BRAVE OF SOMEONE TO CALL THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

Really? I see people ragging on PUAs all the time.

Unknown

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Myhaloslipped

Excellent article. I don't have a problem with guys who lean towards "alpha," but guys who go to great lengths to prove it and never stfu about it are a huge turnoff. No on cares. I am still dying laughing about the impromptu bench press contest. Does this really happen on guys' night? lmao.

SapiensPisces

Excellent article. I don't have a problem with guys who lean towards "alpha," but guys who go to great lengths to prove it and never stfu about it are a huge turnoff. No on cares. I am still dying laughing about the impromptu bench press contest. Does this really happen on guys' night? lmao.

Next time my girl friends are over, we're having an impromptu squat/bench/deadlift comp right in the back yard if necessary. LOL

msf74

- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.

That's true enough as it weakened his overall point I thought.

However, I get the impression it was more about him saying it was a contributing factor as opposed to a causal factor as sometimes the whole "alpha" and "beta" thing as it gets distorted by some fools dehumanises women (and men too for that matter) and influences impressionable minds.

BigDougie1211

Excellent article. I don't have a problem with guys who lean towards "alpha," but guys who go to great lengths to prove it and never stfu about it are a huge turnoff. No on cares. I am still dying laughing about the impromptu bench press contest. Does this really happen on guys' night? lmao.

Next time my girl friends are over, we're having an impromptu squat/bench/deadlift comp right in the back yard if necessary. LOL

I've seen 3 really intelligent and charming women have a push up contest at a house party before, to see who could go on the longest - still have the video on an old cell phone. It was a highlight of a very funny night.

Myhaloslipped

Excellent article. I don't have a problem with guys who lean towards "alpha," but guys who go to great lengths to prove it and never stfu about it are a huge turnoff. No on cares. I am still dying laughing about the impromptu bench press contest. Does this really happen on guys' night? lmao.

Next time my girl friends are over, we're having an impromptu squat/bench/deadlift comp right in the back yard if necessary. LOL

:laugh: I would be so amused and entertained if this happened while I was visiting one of my male friends.

RaspberryKeytoneBoondoggle

Excellent article. I don't have a problem with guys who lean towards "alpha," but guys who go to great lengths to prove it and never stfu about it are a huge turnoff. No on cares. I am still dying laughing about the impromptu bench press contest. Does this really happen on guys' night? lmao.

Next time my girl friends are over, we're having an impromptu squat/bench/deadlift comp right in the back yard if necessary. LOL

Well....... The last time I had an all night pj party with my girlfriends we did have an arm wrestling tournament. It was even written up on a chart and everything. We also had a non-dominant (pardon the pun) left handed round for me, because my right arm was in a sling.
And I'm not ashamed to admit it!!!

Myhaloslipped

FINALLY SOMOENE HASE THE COURAGE TO SAY SOMETHNG CRITICAL OF PICK-UP ARTISTS. HIP HIP HOOREY! THEY HAVE ENJOED FAR TOO <MUCH CREDIBILITY FOR FAR TOO LONG AND ITS VERY BRAVE OF SOMEONE TO CALL THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

Really? I see people ragging on PUAs all the time.

Lol, yeah. In fact, I see that more than I see people praising them.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I imagine this hate for alpha male behavior gets temporarily suspended when the check comes. Sure, maybe the extremes are bad but there's no denying gender roles in courtship are still a thing.

I have no problem paying for a date.

Of course gender roles still exist.

This article isn't about that. It's about a community of young males who think they can or should become "more alpha" and in doing so they'll get more women, and that feminists are evil, etc. There are books and websites dedicated to these ideas. I've seen these boys post this stuff on this website.

A mentally deranged young man found this community and used it to fuel his rage. No, the community isn't responsible, and who knows if he would have done what he did without it. I like this article just because it disputes the weird beliefs I've seen spouted on this site.

SteveyBrule

I didn't think anyone took this concept (at that kind of extreme) seriously. I was pretty sure the pissing on stuff and dominating other males was more of a joke persona for frat kids.


Please don't take this extreme version of a confident male as fact. It's a ubiquitous term used to propagate fear and warrant web traffic or book sales. Anecdotally, I'm sure most of the self-proclaimed alpha males use that term among friends in jesting.

Pretty sure this whole concept is more of a media-based exaggeration than a new wave of feminist-hating machismo.

greeneyes0809

- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.

While no doubt he was mentally ill, it's the fact that our culture normalizes this idea of women being objects. Of course you can't blame one thing for why he did what he did, but our culture normalizes this sense of entitlement making his thoughts more acceptable to him.

whitebalance

FINALLY SOMOENE HASE THE COURAGE TO SAY SOMETHNG CRITICAL OF PICK-UP ARTISTS. HIP HIP HOOREY! THEY HAVE ENJOED FAR TOO <MUCH CREDIBILITY FOR FAR TOO LONG AND ITS VERY BRAVE OF SOMEONE TO CALL THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

Really? I see people ragging on PUAs all the time.

Myhaloslipped

This article is terrible on so many levels. I don't even want to re-read it to make any points. It's just full of broad generalizations about men, I think it's hateful, and I am appalled that the writer is taking a tragic event and blaming an entire gender for it. We all need to step up and realize that mental health issues don't just go away when we ignore them. I think I know what he is trying to say, but this issue is not as simple as he makes it out to be.

I do agree that story he began with and then related to alpha males was quite a disturbing path to take. Some of the things he said were extremely on point, but that particular argument was rather strange.

BigDougie1211

This article isn't about that. It's about a community of young males who think they can or should become "more alpha" and in doing so they'll get more women, and that feminists are evil, etc. There are books and websites dedicated to these ideas. I've seen these boys post this stuff on this website.

Is there an argument though that maybe kids are just stoopid and so are young men and they wise up after a healthy dose of real life or a decent slap arpund the head when they step out of line?
The most stereotypically " manly " men I know ( ie masculine, strong, physically capable etc )are devoted husbands and fathers who value and respect others.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

This article is terrible on so many levels. I don't even want to re-read it to make any points. It's just full of broad generalizations about men, I think it's hateful, and I am appalled that the writer is taking a tragic event and blaming an entire gender for it. We all need to step up and realize that mental health issues don't just go away when we ignore them. I think I know what he is trying to say, but this issue is not as simple as he makes it out to be.

I do agree that story he began with and then related to alpha males was quite a disturbing path to take. Some of the things he said were extremely on point, but that particular argument was rather strange.

I don't think it's that far fetched of a connection. His videos and such show he shared the views of this alpha-male-pick-up-artists "community". If someone had done something similar and left records showing he shared the views of the KKK, yeah, the KKK would get some negative attention.

sseqwnp

The examples in his article aren't true examples of an alpha male. An alpha doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

So tell us what a "true" alpha male is.

He-man

True Al Female right here:

BigDougie1211

While no doubt he was mentally ill, it's the fact that our culture normalizes this idea of women being objects. Of course you can't blame one thing for why he did what he did, but our culture normalizes this sense of entitlement making his thoughts more acceptable to him.

I don't think OUR culture does though. I'm assuming a set of subcultures based on the comments left and the article I read, but real life doesn't. In my experience anyway. A bit of real life experience tends to go a long way towards educating people as to the value of others.

Slacker16

- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.

While no doubt he was mentally ill, it's the fact that our culture normalizes this idea of women being objects. Of course you can't blame one thing for why he did what he did, but our culture normalizes this sense of entitlement making his thoughts more acceptable to him.

We just had one locked thread about this, do we need a second one?

That dork in California wasn't 1/10th the mass murderer that Breivik was, and Breivik wasn't primarily motivated by gender issues. In both cases, you had an unhappy and disturbed individual who found a scapegoat on whom to blame his disappointments without having to look at his own faults and eventually lashed out.

In a completely gender-neutral society, Rodgers would have simply found some other "enemy".

ETA : you could argue there was an element of enabling in it, but the root cause was mental illness.

msf74

Can someone please explain to me why the ability to attract and sleep with multiple women is now somehow seen as the zenith of male achievement along the lines of scaling the North Face of Everest, driving the British out of India through a co-ordinated approach of passive resistance or abolishing slavery?

It's not like it's all that hard to achieve*

*I'm just playing...