The Myth of the Alpha Male.
Replies
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tagged for later
i never heard of this "alpha" crap before i joined MFP. (i don't internet much and i don't TV any.)
This is where I first heard of it. I don't really know how big of a "thing" it really is.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
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While I understand the article's premise, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Dominance hierarchies are a critical part of our subconscious. They have played a critical part in our evolution and in our continued survival.
The article seems to misunderstand the concept. Being an "alpha" isn't a permanent title but rather a kind of outcome of dyadic interactions between men in social situations. It changes in each context as one pack member takes the lead from another when the facts on the ground change.
Without an alpha, social animals (which humans are) would lose critical capabilities as the group frays. We see it everyday when we look at dysfunctional organizations - they lack leadership and consequently lack focus.
He isn't attacking the "real" idea that some people are leaders and some are followers (there are also more dominant women, it's not just a male trait). He's attacking the fake idea that all these 22 year olds spout that you are either "alpha" or "beta" and that you have to do certain things to become "more alpha".
I dont know if he was really attacking anyone. Sure sounds like he hates me though. I never did anything to that guy.
ETA: I really think the guy has what "mass media" has created as an "alpha type persona" (Movies, TV etc.) and what the reality of it actually means. Seems like a lot of misdirected anger at the wrong folks. The media and all the wannabees that believe in it.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
QFT0 -
That's another. I didn't know much about Blade till I saw the movie.
But with Marvel as the sponsor it could grow. Marvel's success with superhero movies has been on the rise and what better way to introduce Alpha Flight to the main stream. If worse came to worse, let it preview in Canada first. Star Wars grew a fan base from it's movie and not the book.
Speaking of which, Marvel should do a movie on them.Oh yeah? Then explain Alpha Flight, a mutant team so alpha that is has "alPuck. in the name.
Guardian
Shaman
Northstar
Aurora
Snowbird
Marina
Sasquatch
Puck (great name since hockey is so prevelant in Canada and I'd love to see who would play him in a movie version)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I don't think they have a strong enough fanbase to warrant a movie. And Peter Dinklage as Puck. I don't care if he was Trask in the last film
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
True. Blade was a pretty successful marvel film.
Anyway, back to topic0 -
Next thing you're going to claim is that unicorns aren't real.
Of course they are real. You can make bacon out of them. If "turkey bacon" is real, "unicorn bacon" is real.
*GASP*
You most certainly should not make bacon out of unicorns! This is travesty!0 -
Thank you for posting this... Just thank you. :drinker:TL;DR
^^^ this... I read a bit but it looked like a tirade of hateful drivel against men, so I didn't really want to read any more. Maybe I judged it too harshly but if so then the writer really needs to reconsider how he or she writes introductions.
I'm sick to death of the abuse of the term "alpha male". It's not a personality type, or a way of acting or anything along those lines....... It's a position in a primate social hierarchy and most that call themselves "alpha male" don't actually hold that position even in their own social group. You have a group of male friends who all call themselves "alpha males"...? NO. just no. *one* of them is the alpha (and probably not the alpha anywhere else outside of his little social clique) but the rest are not, by definition. And due to the complexity of human societies, you can be the alpha among one group and not among others, e.g. you may be the alpha of your team at work because you're their manager, but in a meeting with company directors you're not the alpha, not even close. And the alpha can be male or female. "alpha male" might work with some primate species because their social system is divided into separate male and female hierarchies (and there's an alpha female as well when this happens)... but in humans usually there's one hierachy of individuals of both sexes and either a male or a female can be the alpha. It depends on the group and on the individual.
It makes me laugh though when some newcomer to this forum calls himself an "alpha male" when a better primate analogy for his position on the forum is actually that he's not accepted into the troop at all (therefore doesn't have any greek letter) and is having *kitten* thrown at him by the troop. Yet he calls himself "alpha" because he believes it's a personality trait :laugh: yep, his alpha status certainly is mythical.0 -
That's another. I didn't know much about Blade till I saw the movie.
But with Marvel as the sponsor it could grow. Marvel's success with superhero movies has been on the rise and what better way to introduce Alpha Flight to the main stream. If worse came to worse, let it preview in Canada first. Star Wars grew a fan base from it's movie and not the book.
Speaking of which, Marvel should do a movie on them.Oh yeah? Then explain Alpha Flight, a mutant team so alpha that is has "alPuck. in the name.
Guardian
Shaman
Northstar
Aurora
Snowbird
Marina
Sasquatch
Puck (great name since hockey is so prevelant in Canada and I'd love to see who would play him in a movie version)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't think they have a strong enough fanbase to warrant a movie. And Peter Dinklage as Puck. I don't care if he was Trask in the last film
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
True. Blade was a pretty successful marvel film.
Anyway, back to topic
I approve of this detour0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.0 -
Oh no, this is really going to disappoint a couple of posters I know...0 -
Nope. Wolvie is a loner, not a pack animal at all. Magneto and Charles Xavier are alphas.The examples in his article aren't true examples of an alpha male. An alpha doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
So tell us what a "true" alpha male is.
Gambit or Wolverine. Cyclops is totally beta.
Valid point. Though I think you can be a loner and still exude alpha qualities. This thread is about to get extremely nerdy.
magneto and charles xavier are competing to be the alpha (albeit in a subtle way because they're humans, not chimps)
alpha is not a personality trait, it is a position in a social hierarchy.
Oh yeah? Then explain Alpha Flight, a mutant team so alpha that is has "alpha" in the name.
You fell for the marketing.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
ETA#2: For some reason it left this out when I edited it.
That definition sounds like law enforcement, firefighters, first responders, veterans and other brave individuals who provide service and sacrifice for others. But still there is a pecking order in those environments.
They key phrase is aspire to.....it doesnt mean they are.
ETA: I can aspire to be an astronaut all I want, but I probably will never ever be one.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
OK, so maybe saying "he disregards you" was wrong, but other than that, i am agreeing with you.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
They key phrase is aspire to.....it doesnt mean they are.
ETA: I can aspire to be an astronaut all I want, but I probably will never ever be one.
Right.
Alpha is a retread of Macho. The definitions are the same.
And I don't believe that all boys do or should aspire to traditional definitions of masculinity.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
OK, so maybe saying "he disregards you" was wrong, but other than that, i am agreeing with you.
It's kind of a mindf*#k though, just like "It Girls"
"If you question if you are, then you aren't"
It's useless for living a life.0 -
I...uh...ew.
Does this guy even biology? History?
How about take a little peek into evolutionary behavioralism of any “societal” species?
ANYTHING aside from reading past "Intro to Psychology :101" (and butchering it) ?
The article was junk. The forum comments surrounding it are a little more developed in thought...which is saying something.0 -
Mental illness - when real - is an explanation, not an excuse, and why is race at all relevant to the discussion?- The concept of alpha males is responsible for a very mentally ill kid doing what he did. He did it because he was messed up. He had access to a weapon. He killed people because he was sick... and not because he was frustrated with some social norm.
While no doubt he was mentally ill, it's the fact that our culture normalizes this idea of women being objects. Of course you can't blame one thing for why he did what he did, but our culture normalizes this sense of entitlement making his thoughts more acceptable to him.
normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
Sorry, couldnt resist. Your response made me think of this...
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normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
Sorry, couldnt resist. Your response made me think of this...
I think a few of our minds went there0 -
Given statistical likelihood for under-reporting of cases of abused males, 1 in 10 may be low.normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.0 -
Well see anyone who thinks Alpha = "Macho" in the first place is a lost cause.
IMO, the lone wolf who does as he pleases is truly Alpha.....like your friend.
Wanna join his pack? no probs. Don't wanna join?....... he doesn't care and you are disregarded......either way, he's bullriding for fun
But...there is no pack. He's just friends with you. He respects everybody whether or not they are part of his social circle. Well, maybe not everybody - he ran into some horrible people in Bosnia. He's just a guy who has a lot of life experience that he brings to the table.
ETA: "Machos in Iberian-descended cultures are supposed to have bravery, courage and strength as well as wisdom and leadership, and ser macho (literally, "to be male") is something all [gender normative] boys are supposed to aspire to."
Find me a definition of "Alpha" that differs from this.
Sorry, couldnt resist. Your response made me think of this...
I think a few of our minds went there
Had to Google it. That pretty much summarizes everything I think about guys who are concerned about "Alpha"0 -
normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.
It's become so mainstream that while we constantly hear about the evils of misogyny, misandry is widely accepted. I bet many here haven't even heard the term. If your troubles fit the accepted victimhood narrative then you get help, if not, tough luck.0 -
Given statistical likelihood for under-reporting of cases of abused males, 1 in 10 may be low.normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.
very true. but i can only state the reported numbers. i'm sure it's the same 1 in 4, to be honest.0 -
TL;DR
^^^ this... I read a bit but it looked like a tirade of hateful drivel against men, so I didn't really want to read any more. Maybe I judged it too harshly but if so then the writer really needs to reconsider how he or she writes introductions.
I'm sick to death of the abuse of the term "alpha male". It's not a personality type, or a way of acting or anything along those lines....... It's a position in a primate social hierarchy and most that call themselves "alpha male" don't actually hold that position even in their own social group. You have a group of male friends who all call themselves "alpha males"...? NO. just no. *one* of them is the alpha (and probably not the alpha anywhere else outside of his little social clique) but the rest are not, by definition. And due to the complexity of human societies, you can be the alpha among one group and not among others, e.g. you may be the alpha of your team at work because you're their manager, but in a meeting with company directors you're not the alpha, not even close. And the alpha can be male or female. "alpha male" might work with some primate species because their social system is divided into separate male and female hierarchies (and there's an alpha female as well when this happens)... but in humans usually there's one hierachy of individuals of both sexes and either a male or a female can be the alpha. It depends on the group and on the individual.
It makes me laugh though when some newcomer to this forum calls himself an "alpha male" when a better primate analogy for his position on the forum is actually that he's not accepted into the troop at all (therefore doesn't have any greek letter) and is having *kitten* thrown at him by the troop. Yet he calls himself "alpha" because he believes it's a personality trait :laugh: yep, his alpha status certainly is mythical.
I love you too! This is precisely what is needed here! :flowerforyou: 0 -
normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.
It's become so mainstream that while we constantly hear about the evils of misogyny, misandry is widely accepted. I bet many here haven't even heard the term. If your troubles fit the accepted victimhood narrative then you get help, if not, tough luck.
Which is why I take issue with however we're glorifying stereotypical masculinity these days.
ETA: "Get Help" isn't exactly the experience that many women with accepted victimhood narratives have either.0 -
normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.
It's become so mainstream that while we constantly hear about the evils of misogyny, misandry is widely accepted. I bet many here haven't even heard the term. If your troubles fit the accepted victimhood narrative then you get help, if not, tough luck.
Interesting timing as this video link has been circulating around social media the past week or so....
http://9gag.tv/p/aVYL7p/what-happens-when-the-public-sees-a-woman-abusing-a-man-domestic-violence?ref=jfs0 -
normalizing misogyny is something society is very very good at . white boy violence against women is almost always associated with mental illness aint it? we got so many excuses for the mens ...so fast do we blame the women oh so fast
40% of abuse victims are MALE. and while 1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime - 1 in 10 men will be. in fact, the points you raise have been so adopted into mainstream consciousness that men who are victims of abuse and/or rape are never taken seriously.
shame on you.
It's become so mainstream that while we constantly hear about the evils of misogyny, misandry is widely accepted. I bet many here haven't even heard the term. If your troubles fit the accepted victimhood narrative then you get help, if not, tough luck.
Interesting timing as this video link has been circulating around social media the past week or so....
http://9gag.tv/p/aVYL7p/what-happens-when-the-public-sees-a-woman-abusing-a-man-domestic-violence?ref=jfs
The most disheartening thing about this video is that it isn't at all surprising.0 -
There is not one neat and tidy, simple answer of what motivates someone to violence. There are many different reasons. Each individual situation needs to be looked at and evaluated for that situation, the elements and causes and possible preventions and what can we learn from it to prevent it or act more quickly. Though it's just very difficult for that to be a reality (acting quickly) for many many reasons. A lot of the people that commit heinous violence go unchecked for decades even with piling up police reports, restraining orders, hospital records, etc. Part of the issue is that the victims do not want to testify (and even when they finally do, they are the only one because the others don't testify). I don't judge that. I understand. Though, I think that may be an area we need to look at and work on. Why do people protect the offenders and not testify, and how can we make it more possible for them to do that.
I don't think there should be any kind of victimhood narrative. Being a victim of a crime is not something anyone wants. It's something that happens and then we have to deal with it. In fact that is one of the main reasons so many of us wait so long to come forward because we don't want to be seen as a victim or put into a victimhood narrative (male or female). It's tough to experience intimate, violent crimes whatever a person's gender or age is. And no one wants to be treated like a victim or feel humiliated and victimized against their will. It happens to children, adults, girls, boys, women, men, or anyone inbetween. It's not a competition, and to see it that way solves nothing.
I generally think a lot of problems come from people on both sides trying to turn things into gender issues. I think we should stop doing that. It causes more problems than it solves. It's not women against men or men against women. There are violent and non-violent people in this world. And we can look at the roots of the violence. We can look at getting people to come forward and testify. We can look at helping people heal. We can look at various avenues of prevention. But, turning it into a gender issue or an us against them is not going to help. Gender violence is a term that has meaning and is useful. But, it means either gender against another. It doesn't mean a competition about which gender is hurt more, which gender offends more, and who has a more difficult time getting help.
This isn't really so much a response to the article, more to the issue in general and some comments (but I scanned through because I'm busy).
Just want to add that I think we can all agree that violence is bad, no matter what the genders are. I don't think any of us (that are people with a capacity for empathy) think that any kind of violence should be allowed and condoned or enjoyed.0 -
IN, to come back and read later.0
This discussion has been closed.
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