Who knew sexism in churches still exists.

SoDamnHungry

I always hated church because I wanted to watch cartoons on Sunday.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

As I have said in another answer this has been a debate for years. People who don't believe always want proof, they think Christians cant think for themselves and assume we aren't very smart for putting faith into God. Everyone has faith in something. It just depends where you put that faith. The proof I can give you is a life changed, a testimony of Gods power at work in a human life. I could tell you stories till I'm blue in the face but as long as people are set to deny God being real in their hearts He can never prove Himself true in their lives. It has been 2000+ years and no one has been able to prove it false either.

SunofaBeach14

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Mohamed and the Buddha have the same proof.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

neandermagnon

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

I was raised to see other people as human first, and other things like skin colour, gender, etc as secondary. So I don't mentally categorise people according to gender, ethnic origin, sexuality, etc, because it makes no sense to me. People are people. Generalisations are stereotypes and when you question them, you find too many examples where they don't work. And when you examine racist (or sexist or homophobic) beliefs, you find that they are based on stereotypes.

Additionally, your generalisation about straight men... does that apply to straight men from all the various different parts of Africa, South America and Asia too? Or is it a generalisation based on a tiny number of men from your own culture? I've studied way too much anthropology to believe that anything in my culture applies universally to all men or all women, or all people of a particular sexual orientation.

You studied anthropology, so you know there are differences amoung cultures, let alone the sexes. And I studied biology. I'm not a doctor, but I'm gonna give a guess that stinky man feet or adolescent boy armpit is a universal thing.

It's not a universal thing, not by a long shot!! Cultural differences are NOT biological differences - they are learned behaviours and attitudes. Cultures that go barefoot or wear sandals don't have problems with stinky feet. Women have smelly armpits too (if both genders go unwashed, they both smell bad) so if in one culture it's only men that have smelly armpits it's because women are using perfume and deodorants more than men. You can find plenty of cultures where men use perfume as much as women do, such as Arab culture. I've never come across a smelly Arab in 7 years of living in the Gulf. Arabs are very particular about personal hygiene... most of them are Muslims so wash their feet several times a day (it's a pre-requisite before praying) so that plus wearing sandals = they don't have smelly feet. - That's just one culture. Go to other cultures and you'll find huge differences in attitudes and behaviours to these things.... and all of them are the product of culture and upbringing... NOT biology. (if you want to talk pure biology, then both genders smell bad if they sweat a lot and don't wash)

Studying anthropology brought it home very clearly indeed that so many things I'd take to be basic biological facts were no more than cultural attitudes in my own culture. Attitudes towards sex, gender, sexuality and how men and women are expected to behave is one area where this applies the most. Most of what people think are gender differences are no more than cultural differences. There are indeed biological, neurological and psychological differences between men and women - but when it comes to neurological and psychological, the differences are much fewer than most people realise... and even when it comes to physical differences, the differences are often grossly exaggerated, which is to the detriment of both men and women.

I studied biology as well as anthropology - my degree is in human sciences that included as much human physiology and human biology as it did anthropology, ecology and that general branch of science.

Seriously, people need to stop categorising others based on ethnic origin, gender, sexuality and the rest and start seeing other people as human beings......... and nothing wrong with cultural behaviours and attitudes when they're not harming anyone, but gender stereotypes are harming both genders, IMO

SunofaBeach14

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

lol - I need a beer. Debating belief is fun

Didn't all the Christians eat Jesus and drink his blood?

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

lol - I need a beer. Debating belief is fun

Ha, I don't know about the beer but I could use a Caramel Macchiato

oregonzoo

This thread perfectly illustrates why I'm hesitant to subject my children to organized religion.

Meerataila

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

All three religions have life after death mythology, therefore, according to the followers of those religions, none of them are actually dead.

Edit: and Mohammed, the prophet is considered deceased as far as a human body, Allah is considered the god of Islam, and to say he is dead will not make Muslims very happy with you.

CJisinShape

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

That is incredibly sexist against men.

I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.

Incredibly sexist against men? In my defense, what I said was true. Men are amazing. Statue of David? Absolutely gorgeous. Seal Team 6 were all men. Women are amazing. I think our debate about equal access and equal pay in this country has been extrapolated to a point of ridiculousness where just appreciating the different natures and actions of the genders is offensive. Ridiculous, IMO.

Straight men smell? Really?? You've met every straight man whose shared accommodation with other straight men and checked this fact for yourself?

My comment was about stereotypes. Your assertion that straight men smell... well that's a stereotype. Stereotypes are one of the foundations upon which prejudice grows.

According to the stereotypes, I'm a lesbian. Except I'm sexually attracted to men. So, there must be something wrong with the stereotypes.

Well, that explains your anger.

Regarding straight men, I think smelling is a universal trait regardless of sexual preference, once puberty sets in. Its why they make deodorant. A feminine tendency is to make the effort for a more lovely home.

And I bid you adieu. No offence, but you are making really random arguments. Unless you were joking.

silkmfp

Dude, I'm gay. The church, even the "accepting" kind, still tell me on a daily basis I'm a sinner just for being who I am. And they smile, completely ignorant to the fact they just insulted me on a very personal level.

neandermagnon

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

Allah is God. If you read an Arabic translation of the bible, you'll find the Arabic word "Allah" everywhere that God is mentioned.

Muhammad recognised Jesus as a prophet and the messiah - and also that Jesus is still alive, but wasn't resurrected because he never died. So he was definitely talking about the same God that Jesus spoke of, even if he didn't believe exactly the same things about him that Christians do.

You can't believe in God and say that Allah is dead. That's like saying that you like to drink water but you think maya* does not exist.


*Arabic word for water

Nateforau

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

That's because there is little evidence that he existed to begin with. Hahaha. Other than one minor Jewish historian named Josephus writing in the mid first century, please provide proof that he even existed.

Ratrap

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

All three religions have life after death mythology, therefore, according to the followers of those religions, none of them are actually dead.

Edit: and Mohammed, the profit, is considered deceased as far as a human body, Allah is considered the god of Islam, and to say he is dead will not make Muslims very happy with you.

I wont claim to know much about either religion. I just know that Buddha or Allah can claim what Jesus claimed. I don't want to hurt anyone or anything. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I am just expressing mine as are you. I don't see you any less or any more. Either way your still a person Jesus loves and wants a relationship with whether you believe it or not.

greentart

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

Proven... to be dead? How do you prove a God to be dead, and what exactly do you use as proof?

To the OP, there will always be sexism. In the church, in society, in the world. Why? Because people have opinions, and other people will agree or disagree with those opinions, and then those opinions grow into beliefs and that's the way the world works. Same with racism, bigotry, and every other 'ism' around. It can be fought against, but you can't change someone's opinion (belief) if they don't want it to be changed.

1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are both in the New Testament, and should therefore be followed by any Bible abiding Christian (aka: Christian, because you SHOULD be Bible abiding). Both of these verses speak to a woman's subservient role, both in the home and in church. This isn't in the Old Testament, where it can be swept under the rug. If you've never come across these verses, perhaps its time to actually READ the holy scripture in which you claim to follow.

CJisinShape

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Mohamed and the Buddha have the same proof.

Mohammed was a military leader and Budda was a prince, so no, they do not have the same proof. Jesus is a unique figure in history, incomparable.

neandermagnon

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

That is incredibly sexist against men.

I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.

Incredibly sexist against men? In my defense, what I said was true. Men are amazing. Statue of David? Absolutely gorgeous. Seal Team 6 were all men. Women are amazing. I think our debate about equal access and equal pay in this country has been extrapolated to a point of ridiculousness where just appreciating the different natures and actions of the genders is offensive. Ridiculous, IMO.

Straight men smell? Really?? You've met every straight man whose shared accommodation with other straight men and checked this fact for yourself?

My comment was about stereotypes. Your assertion that straight men smell... well that's a stereotype. Stereotypes are one of the foundations upon which prejudice grows.

According to the stereotypes, I'm a lesbian. Except I'm sexually attracted to men. So, there must be something wrong with the stereotypes.

Well, that explains your anger.

Regarding straight men, I think smelling is a universal trait regardless of sexual preference, once puberty sets in. Its why they make deodorant. A feminine tendency is to make the effort for a more lovely home.

And I bid you adieu. No offence, but you are making really random arguments. Unless you were joking.

I'm not angry. I couldn't really give a damn if people think I'm a lesbian or not (unless it's a man I want to have sex with, then I have a vested interested in him knowing that I'm straight). Some of my best friends (and one of my cousins) are lesbians. I'm just using myself as an example of why stereotypes are wrong, and frankly stupid.

I'm not making random arguments. You just don't want to question whether your "generalisations" are stereotypes.

Meerataila

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

All three religions have life after death mythology, therefore, according to the followers of those religions, none of them are actually dead.

Edit: and Mohammed, the profit, is considered deceased as far as a human body, Allah is considered the god of Islam, and to say he is dead will not make Muslims very happy with you.

I wont claim to know much about either religion. I just know that Buddha or Allah can claim what Jesus claimed. I don't want to hurt anyone or anything. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I am just expressing mine as are you. I don't see you any less or any more. Either way your still a person Jesus loves and wants a relationship with whether you believe it or not.

Hey, any deity is welcome to come have a relationship anytime with me. I'm right here. But I'm not listening to what people have to say about it. You all can't even agree which god is the right one!

I appreciate your good intentions, though.

neandermagnon

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

All three religions have life after death mythology, therefore, according to the followers of those religions, none of them are actually dead.

Edit: and Mohammed, the profit, is considered deceased as far as a human body, Allah is considered the god of Islam, and to say he is dead will not make Muslims very happy with you.

I wont claim to know much about either religion. I just know that Buddha or Allah can claim what Jesus claimed. I don't want to hurt anyone or anything. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I am just expressing mine as are you. I don't see you any less or any more. Either way your still a person Jesus loves and wants a relationship with whether you believe it or not.

You clearly know absolutely jack sh** about Islam, because you have no freaking idea who Allah is. Sad, because if you did, you would not speak of him as you do. Seriously.

Allah is God. It's Arabic for God. Just like Arabic for "table" is "tawla"

Go read any Arabic translation of the bible. the word Allah (in Arabic script) is there every time the word God is in the English one.

Rage_Phish

who knew there is sexism in church? i thought everyone knew this