Who knew sexism in churches still exists.

ladymiseryali

One of the many reasons I'm an Atheist. Also, find it really insulting that Lillith, the first wife of Adam was thrown out of the garden for DARING to want to be seen as an equal. You could ask the preacher why the prayers were like that. Get a dialogue going and see what happens. It's always fun to challenge oneself and others.

Ummm...Lillith is not mentioned in Genesis or anywhere else in the bible. This was a new one to me to I looked it up.

Learned about her on The History Channel, in a documentary on parts of the bible that were removed. Most don't know about poor Lillith, and they should.

CJisinShape

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

Oh. I'm only to be used for the special occasions of giving birth?

YOU tell my husband that he needs to haul around the sand box sand next time. And maybe he can put together the play house too.

I mean, just because I do it better is irrelevant right?

Because I can have babies.

He can't give birth. Men do not have this abilitity.

No amount of his exercising his feminine side will change that, just like no amount of push ups or putting playsets together is going to make you produce semen.

The very biology of men and women shows there are different purposes. Your strength and femininity is a gift. And a man's strength and masculinity is a gift. Just be happy.

Nateforau

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

Well I for one and so very glad that I have my future husband to show me how to live my life. Thank god for that because gosh darnit, I wouldn't know what to do if I didn't have him guiding me.





There are about a million things that I severely disagree with in the paragraph that I have quoted. It literally makes me boil on the inside, I disagree so much. I want to hit someone.

It is not meant to say that women cant make it through life without a man leading her and in no ways is he supposed to tell her how to live her life. He is there to support her and lead her in the ways of God if that is how they as a couple chooses to live their lives. God gives everyone different strengths some women are surely leaders there is no denying that. I am talking in regards to marriage. You can disagree with truth all you want but that does not change truth. Im just trying to say that there is no reason that she should be so upset that a Church has printed a prayer for their congregation to live the way they believe the Bible tells them to live.

The problem is, it's just not the truth. I've seen marriages where the male seemed more the leader and some where the woman did, and of course then there is the third rail of this issue: Same gender marriages. :devil:

I agree with you about that. My aunt and uncle are that way. My aunt doesn't want it that way but my uncle doesn't rise to be the leader. There are couples where both seem to be powerhouses, but I can tell you they understand that with the belief that God does exist and created humans that ultimately the man is to answer to God for the decisions made for he and his wife. Now whether they choose to follow that is up to the couple. I understand where you are coming from. I do. Situations are different but the truth stays the same. What good would truth be if it could be manipulated by circumstances or situations?

As for your third rail comment, I assume you are trying to start a new debate/conversation that would not be productive in a thread like this.

jbempson

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

I totally agree with you. My parents have a strong Christian marriage where my dad is the head of the household. That doesn't mean my mom doesn't have authority in her life - the president of Martha's Aid, Volunteer Program Coordinator, teacher, high school Sunday School teacher, reading specialist department head at our local elementary, community member and strong, opinionated, woman. Being a submissive wife doesn't make you weak - it makes you a partner in a marriage to a husband where you both love, trust, value, protect, and care for one another.

If you don't even go to the church, why would you care about the quote? Clearly it wasn't meant towards you, and you don't believe it, so why get upset about it?

Meerataila

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

Seems to me equally yoked is a New Testament phrase in regard to marriage, too. Yoked oxen walk side by side.

And I don't really care if a woman wants to be the follower and let her husband lead. But I see plenty of happy marriages where it's the other way around, too. And even more where couples don't have a clear leader and follower.

Someone calling something 'truth' doesn't make it so.

Shalaurise

What is truly sad is that if this were a pro-Christianity topic it would be closed. Very sad.

CJisinShape

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

I was raised to see other people as human first, and other things like skin colour, gender, etc as secondary. So I don't mentally categorise people according to gender, ethnic origin, sexuality, etc, because it makes no sense to me. People are people. Generalisations are stereotypes and when you question them, you find too many examples where they don't work. And when you examine racist (or sexist or homophobic) beliefs, you find that they are based on stereotypes.

Additionally, your generalisation about straight men... does that apply to straight men from all the various different parts of Africa, South America and Asia too? Or is it a generalisation based on a tiny number of men from your own culture? I've studied way too much anthropology to believe that anything in my culture applies universally to all men or all women, or all people of a particular sexual orientation.

You studied anthropology, so you know there are differences amoung cultures, let alone the sexes. And I studied biology. I'm not a doctor, but I'm gonna give a guess that stinky man feet or adolescent boy armpit is a universal thing.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in there book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

This has been the age old debate between believers and people who don't believe. It boils down to faith. Everyone has faith, everyone puts their faith in something. It just depends on where you choose to place that faith. You want me to give you proof? The best proof I can give you is a life changed, a testimony of Gods power at work in a human life. Once you experience God then you will know He is real, but its when you shut your heart down to the possibility of God being real you will never let Him prove it true. It has been 2000 years and no one has been able to prove is false either. Just because I cant see the wind doesn't mean its not there but I clearly see the effects of the wind.

Meerataila

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

Oh. I'm only to be used for the special occasions of giving birth?

YOU tell my husband that he needs to haul around the sand box sand next time. And maybe he can put together the play house too.

I mean, just because I do it better is irrelevant right?

Because I can have babies.

He can't give birth. Men do not have this abilitity.

No amount of his exercising his feminine side will change that, just like no amount of push ups or putting playsets together is going to make you produce semen.

The very biology of men and women shows there are different purposes. Your strength and femininity is a gift. And a man's strength and masculinity is a gift. Just be happy.

What a pity our societies don't stick with the real differences. Instead we get definitions of what it means to be male and female ranging from 'when it's okay for a woman to cry vs when a man can' to 'who should make more money in the marriage' to 'who should instruct the other in religious matters'. Not a damn one of these has any biological origin.

likitisplit

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

Oh. I'm only to be used for the special occasions of giving birth?

YOU tell my husband that he needs to haul around the sand box sand next time. And maybe he can put together the play house too.

I mean, just because I do it better is irrelevant right?

Because I can have babies.

He can't give birth. Men do not have this abilitity.

No amount of his exercising his feminine side will change that, just like no amount of push ups or putting playsets together is going to make you produce semen.

The very biology of men and women shows there are different purposes. Your strength and femininity is a gift. And a man's strength and masculinity is a gift. Just be happy.

Sure, fine. He produces semen and I have a uterus.

How does this make him suitable for every day use and me confined to a cupboard?

People ride horses of both genders. We hunt with dogs of both genders. We eat pigs of both genders.

Yes, males and females of any species are different. But we're not all that different that you have to create completely different spaces in the world for each of us.

MeganAnne89

I totally agree with you. My parents have a strong Christian marriage where my dad is the head of the household. That doesn't mean my mom doesn't have authority in her life - the president of Martha's Aid, Volunteer Program Coordinator, teacher, high school Sunday School teacher, reading specialist department head at our local elementary, community member and strong, opinionated, woman. Being a submissive wife doesn't make you weak - it makes you a partner in a marriage to a husband where you both love, trust, value, protect, and care for one another.

If you don't even go to the church, why would you care about the quote? Clearly it wasn't meant towards you, and you don't believe it, so why get upset about it?

I care about the quote because it projects a certain image on woman as a whole and it's an image that I am greatly opposed to.

That's great that your parents' marriage has worked out and your mom and dad can do whatever they want together, I just dislike that these gender specific roles still exist in our society as a whole. Women are so often shoved into a certain corner to just sit there and shut up and take it and it is entirely unfair when that isn't how we want to live our lives. For the women that do, that's great, and I'm glad you're doing what you want, but it's this attitude that has brought immense unhappiness to our gender and I'm not going to just say nothing.

The only place I'm going to be submissive is in the bedroom and that is MY choice.

Tiff050709

*keeping silent*

likitisplit

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

I was raised to see other people as human first, and other things like skin colour, gender, etc as secondary. So I don't mentally categorise people according to gender, ethnic origin, sexuality, etc, because it makes no sense to me. People are people. Generalisations are stereotypes and when you question them, you find too many examples where they don't work. And when you examine racist (or sexist or homophobic) beliefs, you find that they are based on stereotypes.

Additionally, your generalisation about straight men... does that apply to straight men from all the various different parts of Africa, South America and Asia too? Or is it a generalisation based on a tiny number of men from your own culture? I've studied way too much anthropology to believe that anything in my culture applies universally to all men or all women, or all people of a particular sexual orientation.

You studied anthropology, so you know there are differences amoung cultures, let alone the sexes. And I studied biology. I'm not a doctor, but I'm gonna give a guess that stinky man feet or adolescent boy armpit is a universal thing.

My feet smell like honey and dew after a run.

My armpits are like roses.

Meerataila

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

Oh. I'm only to be used for the special occasions of giving birth?

YOU tell my husband that he needs to haul around the sand box sand next time. And maybe he can put together the play house too.

I mean, just because I do it better is irrelevant right?

Because I can have babies.

He can't give birth. Men do not have this abilitity.

No amount of his exercising his feminine side will change that, just like no amount of push ups or putting playsets together is going to make you produce semen.

The very biology of men and women shows there are different purposes. Your strength and femininity is a gift. And a man's strength and masculinity is a gift. Just be happy.

Sure, fine. He produces semen and I have a uterus.

How does this make him suitable for every day use and me confined to a cupboard?

People ride horses of both genders. We hunt with dogs of both genders. We eat pigs of both genders.

Yes, males and females of any species are different. But we're not all that different that you have to create completely different spaces in the world for each of us.

Perfect.

PrincessPeach30

Not touching this one with a 100ft pole :noway: Oh wait... I kind of just did. *runs away screaming*

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

I totally agree with you. My parents have a strong Christian marriage where my dad is the head of the household. That doesn't mean my mom doesn't have authority in her life - the president of Martha's Aid, Volunteer Program Coordinator, teacher, high school Sunday School teacher, reading specialist department head at our local elementary, community member and strong, opinionated, woman. Being a submissive wife doesn't make you weak - it makes you a partner in a marriage to a husband where you both love, trust, value, protect, and care for one another.

If you don't even go to the church, why would you care about the quote? Clearly it wasn't meant towards you, and you don't believe it, so why get upset about it?

Agree with this

jbempson

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

There are actually quite a few things that have been proven through history books and archaeology. Here is a link to a site that talks about it... http://www.icr.org/bible-history/

It really boils down to faith, though. I have read articles about Christianity and other religions, but I choose to believe in Christianity, as you choose to believe in what you believe. Not trying to say what you believe isn't any less real, but we all have our beliefs and we have the right to express and exercise them.

CJisinShape

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Nateforau

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Using your logic; buddhism, hinduism, paganism, Islam......all of them are true and valid. Yay! Everyone gets their way.

SoDamnHungry

I always hated church because I wanted to watch cartoons on Sunday.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

As I have said in another answer this has been a debate for years. People who don't believe always want proof, they think Christians cant think for themselves and assume we aren't very smart for putting faith into God. Everyone has faith in something. It just depends where you put that faith. The proof I can give you is a life changed, a testimony of Gods power at work in a human life. I could tell you stories till I'm blue in the face but as long as people are set to deny God being real in their hearts He can never prove Himself true in their lives. It has been 2000+ years and no one has been able to prove it false either.

SunofaBeach14

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Mohamed and the Buddha have the same proof.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

neandermagnon

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

I was raised to see other people as human first, and other things like skin colour, gender, etc as secondary. So I don't mentally categorise people according to gender, ethnic origin, sexuality, etc, because it makes no sense to me. People are people. Generalisations are stereotypes and when you question them, you find too many examples where they don't work. And when you examine racist (or sexist or homophobic) beliefs, you find that they are based on stereotypes.

Additionally, your generalisation about straight men... does that apply to straight men from all the various different parts of Africa, South America and Asia too? Or is it a generalisation based on a tiny number of men from your own culture? I've studied way too much anthropology to believe that anything in my culture applies universally to all men or all women, or all people of a particular sexual orientation.

You studied anthropology, so you know there are differences amoung cultures, let alone the sexes. And I studied biology. I'm not a doctor, but I'm gonna give a guess that stinky man feet or adolescent boy armpit is a universal thing.

It's not a universal thing, not by a long shot!! Cultural differences are NOT biological differences - they are learned behaviours and attitudes. Cultures that go barefoot or wear sandals don't have problems with stinky feet. Women have smelly armpits too (if both genders go unwashed, they both smell bad) so if in one culture it's only men that have smelly armpits it's because women are using perfume and deodorants more than men. You can find plenty of cultures where men use perfume as much as women do, such as Arab culture. I've never come across a smelly Arab in 7 years of living in the Gulf. Arabs are very particular about personal hygiene... most of them are Muslims so wash their feet several times a day (it's a pre-requisite before praying) so that plus wearing sandals = they don't have smelly feet. - That's just one culture. Go to other cultures and you'll find huge differences in attitudes and behaviours to these things.... and all of them are the product of culture and upbringing... NOT biology. (if you want to talk pure biology, then both genders smell bad if they sweat a lot and don't wash)

Studying anthropology brought it home very clearly indeed that so many things I'd take to be basic biological facts were no more than cultural attitudes in my own culture. Attitudes towards sex, gender, sexuality and how men and women are expected to behave is one area where this applies the most. Most of what people think are gender differences are no more than cultural differences. There are indeed biological, neurological and psychological differences between men and women - but when it comes to neurological and psychological, the differences are much fewer than most people realise... and even when it comes to physical differences, the differences are often grossly exaggerated, which is to the detriment of both men and women.

I studied biology as well as anthropology - my degree is in human sciences that included as much human physiology and human biology as it did anthropology, ecology and that general branch of science.

Seriously, people need to stop categorising others based on ethnic origin, gender, sexuality and the rest and start seeing other people as human beings......... and nothing wrong with cultural behaviours and attitudes when they're not harming anyone, but gender stereotypes are harming both genders, IMO

SunofaBeach14

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

lol - I need a beer. Debating belief is fun

Didn't all the Christians eat Jesus and drink his blood?

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

Never going to work with christians. You are asking them to think. If it isn't in their book, it isn't possible. You will never get proof, because the only proof text that exists is their own text. You can't use the bible to prove the bible so they keep running in circles.

Jesus is his own proof. He is a historical figure that, while on earth, never wrote a book, went to college, led an army, hold office, or travel more than two hundred miles from his place of birth. He was born in a manger and preached his message for three years.

Here we are, thousands of years later, discussing him, while the kings and presidents and generals of armies have long been forgotten.

Um. So Allah and the Buddha have the same proof.

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

lol - I need a beer. Debating belief is fun

Ha, I don't know about the beer but I could use a Caramel Macchiato

oregonzoo

This thread perfectly illustrates why I'm hesitant to subject my children to organized religion.

Meerataila

But both of those have been proven to be dead...

Where is the power in a dead god?

There has never been proof that Jesus was not resurrected.

All three religions have life after death mythology, therefore, according to the followers of those religions, none of them are actually dead.

Edit: and Mohammed, the prophet is considered deceased as far as a human body, Allah is considered the god of Islam, and to say he is dead will not make Muslims very happy with you.

CJisinShape

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

That is incredibly sexist against men.

I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.

Incredibly sexist against men? In my defense, what I said was true. Men are amazing. Statue of David? Absolutely gorgeous. Seal Team 6 were all men. Women are amazing. I think our debate about equal access and equal pay in this country has been extrapolated to a point of ridiculousness where just appreciating the different natures and actions of the genders is offensive. Ridiculous, IMO.

Straight men smell? Really?? You've met every straight man whose shared accommodation with other straight men and checked this fact for yourself?

My comment was about stereotypes. Your assertion that straight men smell... well that's a stereotype. Stereotypes are one of the foundations upon which prejudice grows.

According to the stereotypes, I'm a lesbian. Except I'm sexually attracted to men. So, there must be something wrong with the stereotypes.

Well, that explains your anger.

Regarding straight men, I think smelling is a universal trait regardless of sexual preference, once puberty sets in. Its why they make deodorant. A feminine tendency is to make the effort for a more lovely home.

And I bid you adieu. No offence, but you are making really random arguments. Unless you were joking.