Who knew sexism in churches still exists.
Replies
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Religion can be sexist. Jesus never was.
What I find astounding is that people can be so hostile against different faiths on a website and not get disciplined for it by mods since that is against one of the rules. No discrimination against any people group whatsoever. Actually I'm not really that astounded.0 -
Who knew sexism in churches still exists? Erm, everybody, most religions are based on misogyny.0
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the entire bible does not suppress women... just look at Deborah, a judge. and like another poster stated, you have to take into context the culture at the time the bible was written. things are different now. whereas it says: men, it means today: human kind (all of us)
It's 2014 and we have come a long way, however, we still have a long way to go, imho.
Thank you for saying this. Unfortunately too many people believe the whole Bible should be taken completely literally.
I like to think of it as a teacher's guide, with lots of scenario-based examples for learning. The suggestion to bring this up with your church leader is one that I agree with.0 -
I don't have time to read through all 5 pages of responses and butt hurt, but I think you are making a leap there.help us to add a touch of beauty and grace to our families," and "help us to be sources of warmth and encouragement to our families."
Adding a touch of beauty and grace doesn't mean you are being asked to BE a touch of beauty. It's a contribution you are asked to petition for. There is nothing there that says you can't be strong, and an equal parnter in everything as well.
Not that there is not sexism everywhere. It's all over the place, not just in church. So, I don't know why it would surprise you. For instance, in the last 5 minutes, I just read this:
Why can't I ask to add a touch of beauty? It's a skill I lack, so if I were to ask deity for something, wouldn't it be a skill I lack?asking to be a touch of beauty for men does seem a bit funny0 -
The wording is pretty lame and cheesy.... I'll definitely give you that!!
BUT...
Personally, I think people sometimes want to think that "equal" means "same" and it doesn't. In general, women have different characteristics than men (not talking body parts here people...that's obvious...). And I'm glad for that, because I have certain characteristics that I am strong in where my hubby is weak and vice versa. We compliment each other well in that regard!
Now, every individual is different, but I don't think there is a problem in embracing that our genders do give us different qualities. As a woman I do tend to be a bit more sensitive, instinctive, intuitive and nurturing than my husband. He tends to be more of a "fixer," more laid-back, blunt and emotionally somewhat oblivious at times, lol. Granted, this may not be the case for every person of course, but just talking generalities/majorities here.
Equal treatment is the way to go, but equal does not mean same!0 -
One of the many reasons I'm an Atheist. Also, find it really insulting that Lillith, the first wife of Adam was thrown out of the garden for DARING to want to be seen as an equal. You could ask the preacher why the prayers were like that. Get a dialogue going and see what happens. It's always fun to challenge oneself and others.
Ummm...Lillith is not mentioned in Genesis or anywhere else in the bible. This was a new one to me to I looked it up.0 -
Please, get over it.My church had a special service yesterday and part of it had this prayer printed on leaflets that were handed out to the congregation. I wasn't able to make it but my mom went and brought back a copy of this prayer. I am so infuriated by it, and by the fact that I wasn't there to say something.
Basically it had different portions for sisters and brothers and fathers and mothers and stuff. The men's parts talked about stuff like "help us to be rivers of pride and prosperity to our families," and "help us to be assets of strength to our families," while the women's parts said, "help us to add a touch of beauty and grace to our families," and "help us to be sources of warmth and encouragement to our families." On the outside it doesn't seem like such a big deal but the wording makes me so angry.
Women are told to ask to be a touch of beauty. That wording sounds gentle and delicate. Men are assets of strength, which makes them sound strong and firm, like pillars. And who said women can't ask God to be both prosperous and warm? It was so sexist. I didn't see the need to divide the prayer into two genders. Both men and women can ask for both things, (though asking to be a touch of beauty for men does seem a bit funny.
The fact that this came from a church is what made me furious. That they're still peddling these stereotypical, outdated gender roles is telling.
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The Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth;*
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
(*I'm not a Satanist - I'm Agnostic)
There's a mating signal?
Whoa!
What's the mating signal?
I'm gonna do it!
At sword practice tonight!
Yes there's a mating signal. The female flashes her bottom at the male, and he duly steps up to the task.
Oh wait... that's chimpanzees...... although I think it would probably still work with humans some of the time.0 -
Sexism in church? Shocking!
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." - Timothy 2:11
“…the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
“Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.” Ephesians 5:21-24
“….and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited…. Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect…” Titus 2:4-9
In studying the letters Paul wrote, some scholars speculate that there were some women, most likely non-Jewish women, who were speaking up in church and causing strife and division, which is why Paul made the statements about women being silent in church.
As to submissiveness, that meaning has been debated for decades if not longer. I'm submissive to my husband in the way that when there are two people going somewhere, someone has to take the lead, and God gave that job to the man of the household. (For example, what would happen if a car had two steering wheels in front, and both people tried to drive it somewhere? LOL Chaos!) If my husband makes the major decisions (with my input, of course!) the responsibility of that decision, right or wrong, rests on him. If I couldn't trust him to make those decisions, I wouldn't have married him.
What people often ignore, because of their rightful opposition of sexism, is that men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loves the Church... which He demonstrated by giving up His life. (Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her... Ephesians 5:25) To me, it seems like the men have the much tougher job!
Also, Jesus spoke to women when others of the day/culture would not, and He allowed them places of ministry. He ELEVATED the status of women in that culture.
We have to remember that while the Bible is meant for all of us today, it was also written to address specific cultural issues of the times. Other cultures/beliefs/traditions/laws/gods often had a way of mixing in and confusing things.
Yes, sexism in the Church still exists, but I think it's just a matter of time and revelation before things get better. When I first became a Christian as a young adult, the only "ministry opportunities" available to women were Sunday School teachers and nursery workers. Times HAVE changed... but there's a lot of "old wineskin" thinking that has to change.
Perhaps you could check out other churches...? A different denomination, or a non-denominational church? A non-confrontive talk with the pastor might help, too. Express your concerns. It could be that this prayer was pulled off some dusty old shelf and reused without much thought to it. It happens.
Remember, God loves us all equally, so focus on that while the Church sorts out these issues.
:-)0 -
Religion can be sexist. Jesus never was.
What I find astounding is that people can be so hostile against different faiths on a website and not get disciplined for it by mods since that is against one of the rules. No discrimination against any people group whatsoever. Actually I'm not really that astounded.
Also states Divisive topics are better suited to groups, not the main forum.0 -
The wording is pretty lame and cheesy.... I'll definitely give you that!!
BUT...
Personally, I think people sometimes want to think that "equal" means "same" and it doesn't. In general, women have different characteristics than men (not talking body parts here people...that's obvious...). And I'm glad for that, because I have certain characteristics that I am strong in where my hubby is weak and vice versa. We compliment each other well in that regard!
Now, every individual is different, but I don't think there is a problem in embracing that our genders do give us different qualities. As a woman I do tend to be a bit more sensitive, instinctive, intuitive and nurturing than my husband. He tends to be more of a "fixer," more laid-back, blunt and emotionally somewhat oblivious at times, lol. Granted, this may not be the case for every person of course, but just talking generalities/majorities here.
Equal treatment is the way to go, but equal does not mean same!
This attitude is fine as long as it's not to be considered 'the rule'.
For example, I'm female and I'm a fixer. Does that mean I'm not female enough?
Also, how do we know any of this is really related to gender? Maybe it's cultural. How do we know what if any psychological differences we possess without cultural input?0 -
I don't find that to be sexist at all. But maybe it's because I have a different definition of sexism. I feel like men and women are different in certain areas and that's just due to our very biology and the way we are. I don't see anything bad about it. I think it's only bad when it is talked about in a demeaning way. Like, by and large, men are more athletic than women. That's simply because when we go through puberty our bodies change in different ways. Now, that doesn't mean that some women aren't just as athletic as men, but by and large, men are more athletic. So if someone says men are generally more athletic, I won't get offended. Now if someone tries to make it seem like men are better because of that or that it's impossible for a woman to ever be as athletic, then it's offensive to me. I generally judge whether something is sexist by the tone of it more than anything. If it's meant to degrade women, then I view it as sexist and wrong.0
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Sexism in church? Shocking!
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." - Timothy 2:11
“…the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
“Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.” Ephesians 5:21-24
“….and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited…. Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect…” Titus 2:4-9
Okay, I haven't come across these in my Bible reading. I definitely would never have survived in those times. But I will say that no church I know follows these. No one expects women to be silent and ask questions at home only. Women preachers are just as successful as the men. Joyce Meyer, anyone? And the thing about being submissive to your husband. It's not literal, there's a meaning to that.
Oh, boy. They're there. All the Bibles have them. And yes, they were intended to be taken literally when they were originally written, as were the verses that tell men that they can marry the women they rape when pillage the villages of the enemy.0 -
The Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth;*
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
(*I'm not a Satanist - I'm Agnostic)
Crowley's Law of Thelema is much better though.
Crowley > LaVey
*not a Thelemite... just speaking in academic terms because comparative religion is fun
ETA: for "just speaking in academic terms because comparative religion is fun" read "stirring the pot" :bigsmile: ... But I do think Aleister Crowley is better than Anton LaVey, on many different levels. But probably LaVey would win hands down in hand to hand combat.0 -
Well, I said what I wanted to say and heard opinions from all the different perspectives I was curious about. I'm done for the night. You guys enjoy arguing over religion. I'm going to bed. 0
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It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.
Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.
This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.
I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.0 -
This is not shocking in the least.0
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I bet you're also not aware that the church committed genocide against women in the burning times?
I've never heard a church mention it, but plenty of history books do.0 -
Well, I said what I wanted to say and heard opinions from all the different perspectives I was curious about. I'm done for the night. You guys enjoy arguing over religion. I'm going to bed.
Again. What did you expect was going to happen on a public forum. Next time, don't post flame baiting threads and then act shocked that it ended up with a lot of arguments and differing discussions going on.0 -
Religion can be sexist. Jesus never was.
What I find astounding is that people can be so hostile against different faiths on a website and not get disciplined for it by mods since that is against one of the rules. No discrimination against any people group whatsoever. Actually I'm not really that astounded.
Also states Divisive topics are better suited to groups, not the main forum.
That, too.0 -
Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.
In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.
Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?
Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!
Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.0 -
What is truly sad is that if this were a pro-Christianity topic it would be closed. Very sad.0
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The wording is pretty lame and cheesy.... I'll definitely give you that!!
BUT...
Personally, I think people sometimes want to think that "equal" means "same" and it doesn't. In general, women have different characteristics than men (not talking body parts here people...that's obvious...). And I'm glad for that, because I have certain characteristics that I am strong in where my hubby is weak and vice versa. We compliment each other well in that regard!
Now, every individual is different, but I don't think there is a problem in embracing that our genders do give us different qualities. As a woman I do tend to be a bit more sensitive, instinctive, intuitive and nurturing than my husband. He tends to be more of a "fixer," more laid-back, blunt and emotionally somewhat oblivious at times, lol. Granted, this may not be the case for every person of course, but just talking generalities/majorities here.
Equal treatment is the way to go, but equal does not mean same!
This attitude is fine as long as it's not to be considered 'the rule'.
For example, I'm female and I'm a fixer. Does that mean I'm not female enough?
Also, how do we know any of this is really related to gender? Maybe it's cultural. How do we know what if any psychological differences we possess without cultural input?
That's why I said that we are different and only gave the qualities that applied to me and my husband. In many ways I'm a total Tom-boy, nothing wrong with that. But I don't think women have to intentionally try to be like men or vice versa, there shouldn't be pressure for that - such as women trying to act more like a male in the workplace to try and get advanced, which I know I did a lot and its too bad that I felt the pressure to.
But those traits I mentioned were just personal - of course yours are different. 0 -
I can't think of a single church, religious organization, ministry, corporation that fronts as a church that isn't dripping with bigotry of some sort. Be it hating those that call their god something else, gender inequalities, sexual preference bias, race... they exist everywhere and those who don't see it are merely turning a blind eye to it.0
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What is truly sad is that if this were a pro-Christianity topic it would be closed. Very sad.
I'm pretty sure this thread will be closed down as soon as the mods become aware of its existence. I don't think they are prejudiced against Christians.0 -
What is truly sad is that if this were a pro-Christianity topic it would be closed. Very sad.
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It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.
Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.
This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.
I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.
You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.0 -
Sorry, still relatively inexperienced on forums. Are threads about religion taboo or something? Why would it get deleted/locked, whatever locking is?
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
See #15
It's good to read the rules.0 -
the entire bible does not suppress women... just look at Deborah, a judge. and like another poster stated, you have to take into context the culture at the time the bible was written. things are different now. whereas it says: men, it means today: human kind (all of us)
It's 2014 and we have come a long way, however, we still have a long way to go, imho.
Gotta disagree with you here. If the bible means humanity when it refers to man, what does it mean when there are specific references to woman?
The bible as originally written does repress women to a great extent, like about every time it mentions the relationship between men and women. It's just the more modern interpretations by "man" that make it more inclusive when it comes to gender, not the original wording of the document.
of course! I was speaking in a general sense. one must look at each section in context and apply accordingly.
Thanks!0 -
Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.
In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.
Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?
Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!
Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.
That is incredibly sexist against men.
I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.0
This discussion has been closed.
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