Who knew sexism in churches still exists.

DSTMT

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

:huh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

likitisplit

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

<--- is Wilma, the female neanderthal in my avatar, a precious piece of porcelain that should only be got out on special occasions?

Birth givin' and sammich makin'!!!

neandermagnon

I can't think of a single church, religious organization, ministry, corporation that fronts as a church that isn't dripping with bigotry of some sort. Be it hating those that call their god something else, gender inequalities, sexual preference bias, race... they exist everywhere and those who don't see it are merely turning a blind eye to it.

The Unitarians.

Never met a bigoted Unitarian.

Actually, I'm going to add Thelemites and Wiccans and a few other kinds of pagans. They're pretty good at not being bigoted.

Going to disagree with the Wiccans and Pagans in your example. I've known quite a few that were bigoted against Christian type religions..and even against each other in different groups/covens.

I'm sure you're right about those particular ones........ but the ones I used to be friends with weren't like that. Considering the differences in beliefs in that particular pagan community (all the different branches of paganism in one community) I think they were extremely good at accepting everyone regardless of differences.

That said, I think when people only socialise with people of the same beliefs as them, then that can lead to irrational hatred of outsiders.

MeganAnne89

It is not meant to say that women cant make it through life without a man leading her and in no ways is he supposed to tell her how to live her life. He is there to support her and lead her in the ways of God if that is how they as a couple chooses to live their lives. God gives everyone different strengths some women are surely leaders there is no denying that. I am talking in regards to marriage. You can disagree with truth all you want but that does not change truth. Im just trying to say that there is no reason that she should be so upset that a Church has printed a prayer for their congregation to live the way they believe the Bible tells them to live.

I hear you. I won't disagree that if she feels that way then she should seriously consider whether her religion is right for her. I think people should always question.

However, I will always disagree that what you've described as how a marriage should be is the universal truth. If you have a woman who is super keen on the idea of her husband showing her how to live her life in the ways of God, then sure, go right ahead, I would never stop her because that's her choice (and by the way, that's part of feminism. She gets to do whatever the **** she wants), but I will never in a million years choose to have my husband guide me. I am my own person and it's going to stay that way.

nikkiworld2

My church had a special service yesterday and part of it had this prayer printed on leaflets that were handed out to the congregation. I wasn't able to make it but my mom went and brought back a copy of this prayer. I am so infuriated by it, and by the fact that I wasn't there to say something.

Basically it had different portions for sisters and brothers and fathers and mothers and stuff. The men's parts talked about stuff like "help us to be rivers of pride and prosperity to our families," and "help us to be assets of strength to our families," while the women's parts said, "help us to add a touch of beauty and grace to our families," and "help us to be sources of warmth and encouragement to our families." On the outside it doesn't seem like such a big deal but the wording makes me so angry.

Women are told to ask to be a touch of beauty. That wording sounds gentle and delicate. Men are assets of strength, which makes them sound strong and firm, like pillars. And who said women can't ask God to be both prosperous and warm? It was so sexist. I didn't see the need to divide the prayer into two genders. Both men and women can ask for both things, (though asking to be a touch of beauty for men does seem a bit funny.

The fact that this came from a church is what made me furious. That they're still peddling these stereotypical, outdated gender roles is telling.

I'm surprised that you're surprised that this type of information is spewed out by churches. Where've you been hiding.

neandermagnon

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

<--- is Wilma, the female neanderthal in my avatar, a precious piece of porcelain that should only be got out on special occasions?

Birth givin' and sammich makin'!!!

but... but... you can't make a sammich with only middle palaeolithic technology....

larrodarro

I'm confused. This is all Zeus to me.

neandermagnon

I'm confused. This is all Zeus to me.

Thor > Zeus

PikaKnight

I'm confused. This is all Zeus to me.

Thor > Zeus

That's not really a good comparison. It'd have to be Thor > Ares or Odin > Zeus.

CJisinShape

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

That is incredibly sexist against men.

I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.

Incredibly sexist against men? In my defense, what I said was true. Men are amazing. Statue of David? Absolutely gorgeous. Seal Team 6 were all men. Women are amazing. I think our debate about equal access and equal pay in this country has been extrapolated to a point of ridiculousness where just appreciating the different natures and actions of the genders is offensive. Ridiculous, IMO.

likitisplit

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

<--- is Wilma, the female neanderthal in my avatar, a precious piece of porcelain that should only be got out on special occasions?

Birth givin' and sammich makin'!!!

but... but... you can't make a sammich with only middle palaeolithic technology....

Just yanking your chain.

When my cat was pregnant, I was envious that nobody questioned her ability to go out and hunt for herself and her children, just because she had ladybits. There is a squirrel that used to lay her swollen belly on the mossy limb of the tree outside my kitchen window. She did just fine without anybody to treasure her.

But me? I'm supposed to keep up the pretense of being a burgeoning flower whether or not I actually get any help while pregnant.

Ratrap

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

neandermagnon

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

That is incredibly sexist against men.

I have a good idea, let's take all the stereotypes about all kinds of people, and throw them all in a big skip, and then shoot that skip out into space and then nuke it, and start regarding each person as an individual human being, who may or may not have some things in common with other individual human beings.

Incredibly sexist against men? In my defense, what I said was true. Men are amazing. Statue of David? Absolutely gorgeous. Seal Team 6 were all men. Women are amazing. I think our debate about equal access and equal pay in this country has been extrapolated to a point of ridiculousness where just appreciating the different natures and actions of the genders is offensive. Ridiculous, IMO.

Straight men smell? Really?? You've met every straight man whose shared accommodation with other straight men and checked this fact for yourself?

My comment was about stereotypes. Your assertion that straight men smell... well that's a stereotype. Stereotypes are one of the foundations upon which prejudice grows.

According to the stereotypes, I'm a lesbian. Except I'm sexually attracted to men. So, there must be something wrong with the stereotypes.

neandermagnon

It's a church whose teachings are based on the Bible. Not sure why you expected gender equality.

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. But still, there is an undeniable difference between the two.

This particular piece of porcelain popped out two babies without drugs and am working on a pistol squat.

I don't think you're getting full value if you save me for special occasions.

You just proved my point. Go tell your husband that he has to give birth next time.

<--- is Wilma, the female neanderthal in my avatar, a precious piece of porcelain that should only be got out on special occasions?

Birth givin' and sammich makin'!!!

but... but... you can't make a sammich with only middle palaeolithic technology....

Just yanking your chain.

When my cat was pregnant, I was envious that nobody questioned her ability to go out and hunt for herself and her children, just because she had ladybits. There is a squirrel that used to lay her swollen belly on the mossy limb of the tree outside my kitchen window. She did just fine without anybody to treasure her.

But me? I'm supposed to keep up the pretense of being a burgeoning flower whether or not I actually get any help while pregnant.

I agree. If human women were really as fragile as sexist people make out that we are, we would never have survived the palaeolithic era.

CJisinShape

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

Ratrap

It is not meant to say that women cant make it through life without a man leading her and in no ways is he supposed to tell her how to live her life. He is there to support her and lead her in the ways of God if that is how they as a couple chooses to live their lives. God gives everyone different strengths some women are surely leaders there is no denying that. I am talking in regards to marriage. You can disagree with truth all you want but that does not change truth. Im just trying to say that there is no reason that she should be so upset that a Church has printed a prayer for their congregation to live the way they believe the Bible tells them to live.

I hear you. I won't disagree that if she feels that way then she should seriously consider whether her religion is right for her. I think people should always question.

However, I will always disagree that what you've described as how a marriage should be is the universal truth. If you have a woman who is super keen on the idea of her husband showing her how to live her life in the ways of God, then sure, go right ahead, I would never stop her because that's her choice (and by the way, that's part of feminism. She gets to do whatever the **** she wants), but I will never in a million years choose to have my husband guide me. I am my own person and it's going to stay that way.

That's fine, I am not here to try and persuade anyone any different. I was just defending my beliefs like everyone else in this thread. I believe what the bible teaches and I strive to live like that and will defend it. No amount of words put in a thread on the internet will change anyone's mind about anything. It will only solidify their current beliefs most of the time. That's the thing about current Christianity and how they got it wrong about Jesus. He had the ability to love without condemning and that is what drew people to Him and then he was allowed to change their life. I have not intention of judging you or anything really.

MeganAnne89

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

And that's totally fine if it works for you but the problem is that if we as a gender, don't take offense to generalities and other larger issues, the sexism problem will never be solved. You have to question and fight against inequality before it even has a shot at being eradicated.

PrincessTinyheart

To the OP about the previous verses:

You have to take into account the cultural times. In those days the churches were split up Men on one side and Women on the other. The Women would ask questions during the service, because in those time they were not taught the same as men and they would interrupt and therefore they were told not to ask questions. The idea of submissiveness has been distorted. The Feminism in America has come in to turn it into something its not. That and men have taken it and abused it also. Yes a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning giving of himself to her and serving her by laying his life down for her and leading her. The submissiveness in the bible does not indicate men being superior but being created as the leader. There is a set up authority: God leads the husband and the husband leads the wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husbands decisions unless it goes against God and His standards. That doesn't mean she gets trampled on but to look to her husband as the leader as she looks to Jesus as a leader. God set it up that way from the beginning. The command goes both ways. The husband has expectations and so does the wife. But people want to have their own independence and therefore do not want to be submissive to anyone especially God. Its not really about sexism as much as it is about independence from how God created things to be and its not really an offense from the church as it is towards God who created things. People want their life apart from the authority of God and It just gets twisted by a fallen nature and distorted into getting upset at a prayer that ask for men to be what they were created to be and women to be created to be. I don't say all this to be arrogant or anything. I really hope it doesn't come off that way. I just thought I would share a different point of view

You're actually trying to justify turning an entire gender into followers and another gender into leaders? And this is okay how? The answer is, it's not okay. And no phrasing of it will ever make it okay.

That is not at all what I am saying. This regards to marriage. There are certainly some very strong women in leadership that I know personally that have helped me quite a bit in life. But they also know that when it comes to leadership under God, He made it that way for a reason and are not afraid to come under authority because to be given authority you have to learn how to come under it. That being said in regards to marriage it is absolutely truth. Whether people want to agree with it or not it is still truth. Just because someone says its not true does not make it any less true. Just because the truth is offensive to someone does not make it any less true. It just means they don't like the truth because it imposes on their life. Its funny to me how people can scream for tolerance for everyone but Christians these days.

And... Saying something is the truth doesn't MAKE it the truth.

How do you KNOW it's the truth? What proof do you have?

neandermagnon

Hypothetical scenario: you have two cups. One cup is a tall drinking glass, another is a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain. Which do you use to drink water every day? Which do you use for a special occasion? Are they equal? They both hold liquids. They can both do the same things. Equal and different, with the weaker vessel given preferential treatment, and the drinking glass used for its strength.

In my entire life I have never had someone call me a beautiful, precious piece of porcelain and then turn it around into something extremely derogatory.

Do you honestly not see how horrific that statement is? How condescending and extremely arrogant that was?

Me thinks the lady does exaggerate, would you say? Horrific? Poppycock!

Seriously, though, I'm a woman. I'm physically very strong, stronger than some men. So what? You get 3 straight guys living together, it usually smells like feet and cheese. Those three guys get married and their standard of living usually goes way up, whether wife works or not. It's called, "a woman's touch." It's a good thing.

First, the term poppycock is totally not used enough.

And I find it horrific because I am 100% for equality between men and women (and anything in between). I won't disagree that three straight guys living in a house together can be stinky, that is, at times, completely true (but the same can be said for three women), but I really dislike being labeled as something that is delicate and in need of a gentle touch.

You're a strong woman, I'm a strong woman. In the past men have gotten away with blatant sexism because they labeled us as delicate and inferior and not strong enough to do "men's work" so I really take offense to being labeled the same way now. They used those terms to put shields around us and we were not allowed to step out from behind them.

I am and will always be as equally capable as my boyfriend is and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't and won't change that.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. I have no issues with equal access and equal pay, but taking offense to generalities puts pointless stress on oneself. I am a strong woman, and I am stronger with my husband. He is a beautiful man, and he is more beautiful with me. There is no competition, no power struggle, when you can appreciate that.

I was raised to see other people as human first, and other things like skin colour, gender, etc as secondary. So I don't mentally categorise people according to gender, ethnic origin, sexuality, etc, because it makes no sense to me. People are people. Generalisations are stereotypes and when you question them, you find too many examples where they don't work. And when you examine racist (or sexist or homophobic) beliefs, you find that they are based on stereotypes.

Additionally, your generalisation about straight men... does that apply to straight men from all the various different parts of Africa, South America and Asia too? Or is it a generalisation based on a tiny number of men from your own culture? I've studied way too much anthropology to believe that anything in my culture applies universally to all men or all women, or all people of a particular sexual orientation.

Meerataila

...and by the way, that's part of feminism. She gets to do whatever the **** she wants

:drinker: