Veganism

MaiLinna

I'm opening a can of worms here but I want everyone's thoughts on Veganism. There have been several claims for and against it, and I'd like to go over a few and really start a conversation. Note: I am not Vegan. These are just a few little arguments I've seen here or there.

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

3. Mistreatment of animals
Have you ever seen how we get chicken nugget goop? I have. I can never eat another chicken nugget again, though personally I still eat real chicken breasts.

CONS of Veganism:
1. Deficiencies
Studies have repeatedly shown that vegetarians who fail to supplement their diets with Vitamin D, B12 and iron are prone to becoming dangerously anemic. Vegetarians also typically miss out on omega-3 fatty acids. The list of these goes on.

2. Morality
Like it or not, plants are also living organisms that respond to stimuli like light, gravity and touch. In fact, some groups even believe plants can feel pain. I've also read articles where plants actually grew better when you spoke to them like they were children. Creepy but cool.

3. Environment:
Non organic farms use pesticides that leak into the water supply. The vast amounts of water used to cultivate fruits and vegetables has actually been proven to cause droughts in some parts of the world. There's another ongoing list here.

I'd like a healthy debate. No bashing. Just love and Veganism arguments, both for and against.

BigT555

morality is the only pro to veganism IMO (humans are definitely omnivores), and it comes with alot of cons, difficulty with foods, deficiencies, cost ect. (these are possibilities, not guarantees, which i think is an important point to make)

doesnt mean that being vegan is impossible or wrong (or not being a vegan for that matter). its a personal choice

Hornsby

In for hopefully a good discussion.

MaiLinna

By the way I said NO BASHING. These aren't my statements, just copying and pasting different arguments from different sites. I don't even SUPPORT any of them. Just posting so other can debate.

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

BigT555

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

humans can eat raw meat, we're just more likely to get sick from contaminates and such if we do so. we've adapted to a cooked flesh diet, thats the reason our appendix's are no longer needed if im not mistaken

as for the religion part, there are religions that also prohibit the eating of meat, such as buddhism among others

aedreana

I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.

fangedneko

I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.

You can't "murder" nonhumans, by definition.

DaniJeanine

I started to think about pros/cons after reading Skinny B*tch, which you find out towards the 3rd or 4th chapter is pretty much Vegan propaganda. Not that being Vegan is bad, but the book is rather biased and closed minded...the gist being, you'll be fat if you're not Vegan. (Not true, of course).

ANYWAY! I believe as with all other thing in life, balance is key, and all points should be considered.

There is no one who can say morality is not an issue. Even if you don't care, it is a plain fact that animals in the largest demand in the industry (cows, chickens, pigs) are abused and mistreated. As evolved humans, we should respect all life, even if we choose to use it for food. And if you apply that to plants, we can use the same argument, noting that pesticides are poisonous for the living organism being sprayed.

Also, we cannot deny the plethora of research that PROVES, not suggests, that a diet high in animal fat (fish not included) leads to a number of health complications as compared to a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, nuts, veggies, beans and fish (Mediterranean diet) improves overall health and increases life span.

That being said, being 100% vegan comes with a number of complications ranging from deficiencies in vitamins and mineral as well as the intake of many process "fake" versions of meat, like Tofurky, for example.

There is also the judgement aspect of it. I have know many vegans, and they aren't all rude, but many can be quite judgmental of people who choose to eat meat products. In my opinion, eating is one of the most, if not THE most personal choice we have. It is no one's right or business to intervene--unless they are your doctor and advising you for health reasons.

So overall, I think being vegan is an extreme decision in terms of food-related restrictions. But, It's a personal decision and no one should criticize people for making it. Me personally? I believe in balance. Eat your steak and your gummy bears. Drink that beer. Savor that eggnog. But be smart. You can't live on that stuff and be healthy and fit.

Look into a diet backed by science over time. And based on what I have seen, that appears to be a Mediterranean style of eating.

eric_sg61

If we are herbivores, how would we have survived before modern agriculture. You can't find enough calories "in the wild" to sustain life without eating meat and fat.

FIT_Goat

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

No. No we're not built like herbivores. It is only vegans who make this sort of claim. Anthropologists who have done detailed analysis on human remains have never found a population that didn't eat meat. There is strong evidence that supports meat as the primary reason we developed our brains and why our guts are so small compared to our size. Frankly, the evidence does not support this claim.

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

Half of this list is more of a concern for plant-based foods. There's not a lot of processed sugar or flour in my steak. I'm not sure what "toxic food combinations" means. And "acidic animal products" is just bad science. Eating meat does not effect blood acidity. It may effect urine acid levels, but blood acidity is tightly controlled and food intake doesn't effect it.

3. Mistreatment of animals
Have you ever seen how we get chicken nugget goop? I have. I can never eat another chicken nugget again, though personally I still eat real chicken breasts.

Mistreatment of animals is horrible. It should be changed. It is 100% unrelated to the chicken nugget goop comment. That is processing that is done after the animal is beyond our ability to mistreat it. When it is dead, using all of the available meat is actually better for all the remaining chickens then if we disposed of the hard to access proteins and just killed extra chickens for the nuggets.

we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

Who says we're not attracted to raw meat? You may not be, but I prefer my steaks to be blue (barely cooked... just enough to kill surface bacteria). I will eat many meats raw (fish, oysters, beef tartar, etc.). Humans do eat raw meat. Some find it very appealing and delicious. Cooking, on the other hand, is not detrimental. Cooked meat and foods provide more available nutrition to the body than raw. When we cook meat, we can use more of it. The fat into carcinogens comment, I need to see more support. If you're over-cooking and deeply browning and charing the meat/fat... then it does form some harmful things.

CONS of Veganism:
1. Deficiencies
Studies have repeatedly shown that vegetarians who fail to supplement their diets with Vitamin D, B12 and iron are prone to becoming dangerously anemic. Vegetarians also typically miss out on omega-3 fatty acids. The list of these goes on.

If they supplement (which I note that you dismiss offhand), I believe that vegans can meet their nutritional requirements. We happen to live in a time when we have the luxury of avoiding animal products, if that is what we want. We have easy and ready access to plentiful plant-calories and nutritional supplements to make up the short-falls. A well-planned vegan diet shouldn't be harmful to most people. I don't see this as a con.

2. Morality
Like it or not, plants are also living organisms that respond to stimuli like light, gravity and touch. In fact, some groups even believe plants can feel pain. I've also read articles where plants actually grew better when you spoke to them like they were children. Creepy but cool.

Until we learn to photosynthesize our energy from the sun, we're dependent on consuming some other form of life. Plants and or animals. There's no way to escape this. I don't see eating as a moral issue.

3. Environment:
Non organic farms use pesticides that leak into the water supply. The vast amounts of water used to cultivate fruits and vegetables has actually been proven to cause droughts in some parts of the world. There's another ongoing list here.

Not sure how this relates to veganism.

the Bible says God told us to eat meat

They bible also says a lot of ridiculous stuff that no sane person should believe. It's not a credible source to use for dietary recommendations.

JoRocka

If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this.

You're wrong right off the bat with this one

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

We are most certainly omnivores- or we wouldn't have several sets teeth named specifically for the tearing and rendering of meat- two sets of incisors and then the pair of canine teeth.

That's a lot of teeth dedicated to eating meat for a mammal designed to eat plants dontcha thing?

morality is the only pro to veganism

this. There is no health reason to go full vegan. And it comes with a host of issues much longer than what you've listed.

There is little reason to go veggie - but it's a more arguable stand point in terms of physical health.

Holly_Roman_Empire

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

MaiLinna

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

humans can eat raw meat, we're just more likely to get sick from contaminates and such if we do so. we've adapted to a cooked flesh diet, thats the reason our appendix's are no longer needed if im not mistaken

as for the religion part, there are religions that also prohibit the eating of meat, such as buddhism among others

True, true. So glad I did this post.

BigT555

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

hasnt it always been?

MaiLinna

Now now, don't go bashing me personally. I am simply listing, mostly word for word, arguments I found on other sites and blogs I was perusing today.

Except chicken nugget goop. Male chicks are thrown live into a grinder. I saw it. Don't tell me that's not how we get chicken nugget goop because I watched it firsthand.

ladymiseryali

I couldn't do veganism. I like meat too much, but I agree with better treatment of animals. If we're going to have these animals as meals, I would prefer they be treated with love and dignity and basic decency beforehand. I also wish there was a more humane way to kill these animals. I also don't like the fact that baby animals are killed, but that's more of an "AW, how can you kill something so cute?" response than anything.

fangedneko

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

MaiLinna

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

Pretty sure calling someone unintelligent and ignorant is bashing.

DaniJeanine

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

Oh, come on, guys--like Jackie Moon says in Semi Pro, ELE. Everybody Love Everybody. ;-P

3laine75

First rule of vegan club - tell everyone about vegan club.

Haha, only kidding guys. I think it's admirable but I, personally, couldn't do it - it can be hard enough to hit protein with meat and dairy in your life. I cannot imagine the juggling match it is to get all the essential amino acids without them. HelI, I couldn't even do vegetarian (managed a year when I was 13) so, fair play to you.

Yakelmeyer

Veganism and vegans are a funny bunch. So many opinions about why we should or shouldn't be. Even within the community, there are factions. It is a group comprised of militants and pacifists like any other.

As a vegan my opinion is simple: for whatever reason(s) you started and whatever reason(s) you stick with it, the end result is the same.

You eat your food and live your lifestyle the way it works for you and I'll do the same. I won't hassle you; don't hassle me. I'll do what I think is right for me and my world and you will do the same.

Walk the middle path.