Veganism

MaiLinna

I'm opening a can of worms here but I want everyone's thoughts on Veganism. There have been several claims for and against it, and I'd like to go over a few and really start a conversation. Note: I am not Vegan. These are just a few little arguments I've seen here or there.

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

3. Mistreatment of animals
Have you ever seen how we get chicken nugget goop? I have. I can never eat another chicken nugget again, though personally I still eat real chicken breasts.

CONS of Veganism:
1. Deficiencies
Studies have repeatedly shown that vegetarians who fail to supplement their diets with Vitamin D, B12 and iron are prone to becoming dangerously anemic. Vegetarians also typically miss out on omega-3 fatty acids. The list of these goes on.

2. Morality
Like it or not, plants are also living organisms that respond to stimuli like light, gravity and touch. In fact, some groups even believe plants can feel pain. I've also read articles where plants actually grew better when you spoke to them like they were children. Creepy but cool.

3. Environment:
Non organic farms use pesticides that leak into the water supply. The vast amounts of water used to cultivate fruits and vegetables has actually been proven to cause droughts in some parts of the world. There's another ongoing list here.

I'd like a healthy debate. No bashing. Just love and Veganism arguments, both for and against.

BigT555

morality is the only pro to veganism IMO (humans are definitely omnivores), and it comes with alot of cons, difficulty with foods, deficiencies, cost ect. (these are possibilities, not guarantees, which i think is an important point to make)

doesnt mean that being vegan is impossible or wrong (or not being a vegan for that matter). its a personal choice

Hornsby

In for hopefully a good discussion.

MaiLinna

By the way I said NO BASHING. These aren't my statements, just copying and pasting different arguments from different sites. I don't even SUPPORT any of them. Just posting so other can debate.

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

BigT555

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

humans can eat raw meat, we're just more likely to get sick from contaminates and such if we do so. we've adapted to a cooked flesh diet, thats the reason our appendix's are no longer needed if im not mistaken

as for the religion part, there are religions that also prohibit the eating of meat, such as buddhism among others

aedreana

I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.

fangedneko

I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.

You can't "murder" nonhumans, by definition.

DaniJeanine

I started to think about pros/cons after reading Skinny B*tch, which you find out towards the 3rd or 4th chapter is pretty much Vegan propaganda. Not that being Vegan is bad, but the book is rather biased and closed minded...the gist being, you'll be fat if you're not Vegan. (Not true, of course).

ANYWAY! I believe as with all other thing in life, balance is key, and all points should be considered.

There is no one who can say morality is not an issue. Even if you don't care, it is a plain fact that animals in the largest demand in the industry (cows, chickens, pigs) are abused and mistreated. As evolved humans, we should respect all life, even if we choose to use it for food. And if you apply that to plants, we can use the same argument, noting that pesticides are poisonous for the living organism being sprayed.

Also, we cannot deny the plethora of research that PROVES, not suggests, that a diet high in animal fat (fish not included) leads to a number of health complications as compared to a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, nuts, veggies, beans and fish (Mediterranean diet) improves overall health and increases life span.

That being said, being 100% vegan comes with a number of complications ranging from deficiencies in vitamins and mineral as well as the intake of many process "fake" versions of meat, like Tofurky, for example.

There is also the judgement aspect of it. I have know many vegans, and they aren't all rude, but many can be quite judgmental of people who choose to eat meat products. In my opinion, eating is one of the most, if not THE most personal choice we have. It is no one's right or business to intervene--unless they are your doctor and advising you for health reasons.

So overall, I think being vegan is an extreme decision in terms of food-related restrictions. But, It's a personal decision and no one should criticize people for making it. Me personally? I believe in balance. Eat your steak and your gummy bears. Drink that beer. Savor that eggnog. But be smart. You can't live on that stuff and be healthy and fit.

Look into a diet backed by science over time. And based on what I have seen, that appears to be a Mediterranean style of eating.

eric_sg61

If we are herbivores, how would we have survived before modern agriculture. You can't find enough calories "in the wild" to sustain life without eating meat and fat.

FIT_Goat

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

No. No we're not built like herbivores. It is only vegans who make this sort of claim. Anthropologists who have done detailed analysis on human remains have never found a population that didn't eat meat. There is strong evidence that supports meat as the primary reason we developed our brains and why our guts are so small compared to our size. Frankly, the evidence does not support this claim.

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

Half of this list is more of a concern for plant-based foods. There's not a lot of processed sugar or flour in my steak. I'm not sure what "toxic food combinations" means. And "acidic animal products" is just bad science. Eating meat does not effect blood acidity. It may effect urine acid levels, but blood acidity is tightly controlled and food intake doesn't effect it.

3. Mistreatment of animals
Have you ever seen how we get chicken nugget goop? I have. I can never eat another chicken nugget again, though personally I still eat real chicken breasts.

Mistreatment of animals is horrible. It should be changed. It is 100% unrelated to the chicken nugget goop comment. That is processing that is done after the animal is beyond our ability to mistreat it. When it is dead, using all of the available meat is actually better for all the remaining chickens then if we disposed of the hard to access proteins and just killed extra chickens for the nuggets.

we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

Who says we're not attracted to raw meat? You may not be, but I prefer my steaks to be blue (barely cooked... just enough to kill surface bacteria). I will eat many meats raw (fish, oysters, beef tartar, etc.). Humans do eat raw meat. Some find it very appealing and delicious. Cooking, on the other hand, is not detrimental. Cooked meat and foods provide more available nutrition to the body than raw. When we cook meat, we can use more of it. The fat into carcinogens comment, I need to see more support. If you're over-cooking and deeply browning and charing the meat/fat... then it does form some harmful things.

CONS of Veganism:
1. Deficiencies
Studies have repeatedly shown that vegetarians who fail to supplement their diets with Vitamin D, B12 and iron are prone to becoming dangerously anemic. Vegetarians also typically miss out on omega-3 fatty acids. The list of these goes on.

If they supplement (which I note that you dismiss offhand), I believe that vegans can meet their nutritional requirements. We happen to live in a time when we have the luxury of avoiding animal products, if that is what we want. We have easy and ready access to plentiful plant-calories and nutritional supplements to make up the short-falls. A well-planned vegan diet shouldn't be harmful to most people. I don't see this as a con.

2. Morality
Like it or not, plants are also living organisms that respond to stimuli like light, gravity and touch. In fact, some groups even believe plants can feel pain. I've also read articles where plants actually grew better when you spoke to them like they were children. Creepy but cool.

Until we learn to photosynthesize our energy from the sun, we're dependent on consuming some other form of life. Plants and or animals. There's no way to escape this. I don't see eating as a moral issue.

3. Environment:
Non organic farms use pesticides that leak into the water supply. The vast amounts of water used to cultivate fruits and vegetables has actually been proven to cause droughts in some parts of the world. There's another ongoing list here.

Not sure how this relates to veganism.

the Bible says God told us to eat meat

They bible also says a lot of ridiculous stuff that no sane person should believe. It's not a credible source to use for dietary recommendations.

JoRocka

If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this.

You're wrong right off the bat with this one

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

We are most certainly omnivores- or we wouldn't have several sets teeth named specifically for the tearing and rendering of meat- two sets of incisors and then the pair of canine teeth.

That's a lot of teeth dedicated to eating meat for a mammal designed to eat plants dontcha thing?

morality is the only pro to veganism

this. There is no health reason to go full vegan. And it comes with a host of issues much longer than what you've listed.

There is little reason to go veggie - but it's a more arguable stand point in terms of physical health.

Holly_Roman_Empire

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

MaiLinna

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

humans can eat raw meat, we're just more likely to get sick from contaminates and such if we do so. we've adapted to a cooked flesh diet, thats the reason our appendix's are no longer needed if im not mistaken

as for the religion part, there are religions that also prohibit the eating of meat, such as buddhism among others

True, true. So glad I did this post.

BigT555

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

hasnt it always been?

MaiLinna

Now now, don't go bashing me personally. I am simply listing, mostly word for word, arguments I found on other sites and blogs I was perusing today.

Except chicken nugget goop. Male chicks are thrown live into a grinder. I saw it. Don't tell me that's not how we get chicken nugget goop because I watched it firsthand.

ladymiseryali

I couldn't do veganism. I like meat too much, but I agree with better treatment of animals. If we're going to have these animals as meals, I would prefer they be treated with love and dignity and basic decency beforehand. I also wish there was a more humane way to kill these animals. I also don't like the fact that baby animals are killed, but that's more of an "AW, how can you kill something so cute?" response than anything.

fangedneko

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

MaiLinna

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

Pretty sure calling someone unintelligent and ignorant is bashing.

DaniJeanine

Now now, don't go bashing me personally.

Now now, don't go imagining persecution where none exists.

Oh, come on, guys--like Jackie Moon says in Semi Pro, ELE. Everybody Love Everybody. ;-P

3laine75

First rule of vegan club - tell everyone about vegan club.

Haha, only kidding guys. I think it's admirable but I, personally, couldn't do it - it can be hard enough to hit protein with meat and dairy in your life. I cannot imagine the juggling match it is to get all the essential amino acids without them. HelI, I couldn't even do vegetarian (managed a year when I was 13) so, fair play to you.

Yakelmeyer

Veganism and vegans are a funny bunch. So many opinions about why we should or shouldn't be. Even within the community, there are factions. It is a group comprised of militants and pacifists like any other.

As a vegan my opinion is simple: for whatever reason(s) you started and whatever reason(s) you stick with it, the end result is the same.

You eat your food and live your lifestyle the way it works for you and I'll do the same. I won't hassle you; don't hassle me. I'll do what I think is right for me and my world and you will do the same.

Walk the middle path.

FIT_Goat

Now now, don't go bashing me personally. I am simply listing, mostly word for word, arguments I found on other sites and blogs I was perusing today.

I am not bashing you personally. I am pointing out that pretty much everything on your lists aren't actually evidence in either direction.

Except chicken nugget goop. Male chicks are thrown live into a grinder. I saw it. Don't tell me that's not how we get chicken nugget goop because I watched it firsthand.

*sigh*

Male chicks are typically culled. Despite the apparent horror of the grinder, it is actually one of the quickest and most humane ways to kill these unwanted male chicks. Death is almost instantaneous. It's horrible. I'm not arguing that it's not. But, it's not cruel.

As for the ground up chicks, they are not part of the components of chicken nuggets. That is just plain false. It may be sold in pet foods, or other animal feeds, but it is not sold for human consumption. You're not eating ground up male chicks when you eat nuggets.

DouMc

I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.

I know lots of vegans and I totally support them not eating animal products for moral reasons so the following question is just idle wondering on my part. What's the moral issue with eating eggs? If the chickens are free range and are living a good life why is it wrong to eat their eggs? The eggs we eat haven't been fertilised so they will never go on to become baby chickens. if they are not eaten they will just rot.

kmbweber2014

I couldn't do veganism. I like meat too much, but I agree with better treatment of animals. If we're going to have these animals as meals, I would prefer they be treated with love and dignity and basic decency beforehand. I also wish there was a more humane way to kill these animals. I also don't like the fact that baby animals are killed, but that's more of an "AW, how can you kill something so cute?" response than anything.

Yep this right here. I prefer to try and eat meat from local farmers but sometimes I just can't afford it.

FIT_Goat

Pretty sure calling someone unintelligent and ignorant is bashing.

The words "ignorant" and unintelligent" each appear only once in this entire thread. They are in this post claiming that someone called you those. There are no instances of those words before your accusation that they had been used.

ironanimal

Pros:
1. False. Our appendix is an organ for dealing with raw meat, that no longer functions because we've evolved not to need it. Nails - we have tools to kill with. Most herbivores spend a lot more of the day eating than we do.
2. Vegetables are affected by this too.
3. Maybe the US farms are more like that, but all the chicken products I eat come from free range chickens. Similar situation for other farm animals.

If anyone mentions Gorillas, keep in mind they spend the majority of their day eating and ****ting, and by some mechanism of their digestion, produce yeast in their gut.

Cooking meat and breaking down the protein is a good way to kill of dangerous bacteria, and we can still make use of the Amino Acids, so not really a problem.

All that said, if veganism is suitable for you (lifestyle, activity, nutritional needs), go nuts - just don't preach it to me.

kotarea

I am 25 and have been a vegetarian for 15 years, from the time I was born until I was 8 (dad is a vegetarian and mom was not when they split mom made me convert) so when I turned 18 I went back to begin a vegetarian NOT because I feel bad for the animals or any of that (however after some of the things i have seen since my decision to become vegetarian I wouldn't change if I could). So that leads into the reason that I became a vegetarian, during the time frame I ate meat I felt terrible after every meal, very nauseous and would get sick all of the time, I started by cutting out different things from my diet and wait a month to find out if there was change, first no sugar, then no fried foods, then no dairy, ect finally I cut out meat all together and BAM! Worked for me, does it make eating difficult? Very. Eating out is darn near impossible and eating at home consists of cooking two meals one for me and one for my boyfriend who does eat meat. But worth it to feel healthy.

Holly_Roman_Empire

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

hasnt it always been?

I guess considering the definition of the suffix, it always has been. I've never been fond of isms.

JoRocka

Pretty sure calling someone unintelligent and ignorant is bashing.

The words "ignorant" and unintelligent" each appear only once in this entire thread. They are in this post claiming that someone called you those. There are no instances of those words before your accusation that they had been used.

To be fair- I did say- and I quote
"If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this"

But that is clearly NOT a personal attack. Or calling the OP unintelligent or ignorant or stupid, nor is it bashing her.

But don't just copy past stuff you read somewhere to try to start a good (assuming by good you mean intelligent) discussion.
That is any easy thing to have researched to figure out- much like many of the other things posted.

Again- if you want to go to the debate table- arm yourself intelligently with the right evidence and facts.

fangedneko

Vegan is an "ism" now? The things I learn on MFP...

hasnt it always been?

I guess considering the definition of the suffix, it always has been. I've never been fond of isms.

It's an archaism, possibly even from Atticism.

dbmata

PRO Veganism
1. Humans are not carnivores.
We have been labeled as omnivores, but if you look at the scientific classifications, our bodies, teeth, and digestives tracts are built like an herbivore's. Small mouths, flat nails, long digestive tracts, etc.

Humans are omnivores. Anyone trying to claim otherwise is co-opting scientific terms and statements much in the way creationists and intelligent designers do. Question anyone who does that, as they're a flat earther in disguise.

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

"Proven", however it's convenient... because plants are never covered in pesticides or fungicides, eh? It's a convenient fiction that requires significant omission. In fact, I'd go so far that vegans are helping to increase the political and corporate power that major ag like ConAgra has over farmers.

3. Mistreatment of animals
Have you ever seen how we get chicken nugget goop? I have. I can never eat another chicken nugget again, though personally I still eat real chicken breasts.

I've made chicken "nuggets" utilizing "goop", it's a molecular gastronomy technique. That's not mistreatment of an animal, animal byproduct in this case is outside of the scope of the argument relating to the mistreatment of animals. The mistreatment of animals one is quite convenient as well. No one wants to discuss what happens to a rabbit that gets caught in a thresher. Or what happens to animals who eat bugs that have been hit with a pesticide. However, I do agree we could do better treating our animals, and that's why personally I have taken to killing more of my meat personally, along with purchasing whole animals from small vendors. By small, I tend to make sure the vendor is less than 5' tall and no more than 16 years old. (4H kids)


[quute]
1. Deficiencies
Studies have repeatedly shown that vegetarians who fail to supplement their diets with Vitamin D, B12 and iron are prone to becoming dangerously anemic. Vegetarians also typically miss out on omega-3 fatty acids. The list of these goes on.
[/quote]
This can be avoided with proper menu preparation and a little supplementation, it's also not just happening to vegans.

2. Morality
Like it or not, plants are also living organisms that respond to stimuli like light, gravity and touch. In fact, some groups even believe plants can feel pain. I've also read articles where plants actually grew better when you spoke to them like they were children. Creepy but cool.

That's not really an argument. We have to kill in order to live. Any of us who cannot cotton to that should opt out. That's just the order of things.

3. Environment:
Non organic farms use pesticides that leak into the water supply. The vast amounts of water used to cultivate fruits and vegetables has actually been proven to cause droughts in some parts of the world. There's another ongoing list here.

That's a product of our entire food system. Nothing preventing you from growing your own. There are things we can do to improve it, but frankly, organic farms on factory scale aren't really any better than non-organic farms. I'd love to see the "proof" of the butterfly effect you suggest in stating that cultivating fruits and veg have caused droughts in "some parts". That's an outrageous claim.

At the end of the day, veganism is... veganism. It's cult, religion, way of life, scheme, marketing... just like any other fad, scheme, or "plan". If it resonates with you, do it. If it makes you feel good, do it. If not, don't do it.

Who cares?