Veganism
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I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.0
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Well, people believe that doing something - abstaining as far as they can - is better than doing nothing. Of course it depends on whether you think that the treatment of animals in current American standard farming practices is wrong and/or whether you think slaughter for meat is wrong. If you don't have an issue, there's no reason to worry about it. If you do have an issue, you have to draw the line somewhere. Should vegans not take medicines in gelcaps or with a lactose filler, even when medically necessary and vegan versions are not available? Not to mention that the drugs were likely tested on animals in the past. People do the best they can because they believe it's better than doing nothing.
Chocolate raises an additional issue of course - slave labor. As does coffee. I've been having problems finding info on this, so if anyone has any - how do I find ethically OK chocolate and coffee - I'd love to know.0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?0 -
Yes, hunting, fishing, etc is considered as using an animal as a means to one's own end and is therefore not considered to be vegan."all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to"
Interesting. I hunt, fish, and gather. Assumably since my goal is to ingest, it is exploitation, yes? Cruelty? I avoid that, I'm very effective.
Honey would definitely be exploitation, but what about co-relationships, akin to kopi luwak coffee? (getting tangenty, this is interesting.)
Again, not an official spokesperson, but if the Kopi Luwak beans are being intentionally fed to an Asian palm civet and the defecated beans are being sold for a profit, it would fall under commodification, which is one of the other terms used to describe what veganism seeks to avoid (the other two being 'use' or 'exploitation') when unnecessary. Particularly if the civet is being confined an any way (I'm guessing that manufacturers of this coffee product are not allowing civets to roam free with no fencing, physical boundaries, etc); some sources seem to indicate that they're commonly relegated to battery cages.0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?
LOL, I know. But, I figured I would give it a solid try to find what he was talking about. It doesn't appear to exist. Who would have figured my sarcasm was justified. ;-)0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?
LOL, I know. But, I figured I would give it a solid try to find what he was talking about. It doesn't appear to exist. Who would have figured my sarcasm was justified. ;-)
Sarcasm is usually justified on these boards
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At JoRocka,morality is the only pro to veganism
""this. There is no health reason to go full vegan.
I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.
Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.
Rubbish.
It's a moral choice that extends WELL outside the bounds of food consumption.
Like I said: I could buy into (possibly) someone arguing those things for pescatarians or ovo-lacto- or vegetarians. Really I could. I would never BECOME any of those things- because I LOVE steak and bacon- but I could listen to a logical well thought out study and articles espousing the great benefits of being a vegetarian.
But being a vegan is a life style choice that has little to do with food itself. It extends- as I said- well outside food consumption alone.
If it was about food alone- you'd just be a vegetarian.
(PS- I'm REALLY happy to see some vegans here saying- meh- it's my choice ethically and I won't apologize for it- I think that's really spot on)0 -
Thank you, thank you, thank you ! Some people don't believe it's wrong to use animals, while others simply do. The fact that it's an open debate in philosophy indicates that there are well-reasoned arguments and intelligent individuals on both sides.Well, people believe that doing something - abstaining as far as they can - is better than doing nothing. Of course it depends on whether you think that the treatment of animals in current American standard farming practices is wrong and/or whether you think slaughter for meat is wrong. If you don't have an issue, there's no reason to worry about it. If you do have an issue, you have to draw the line somewhere. Should vegans not take medicines in gelcaps or with a lactose filler, even when medically necessary and vegan versions are not available? Not to mention that the drugs were likely tested on animals in the past. People do the best they can because they believe it's better than doing nothing.
Chocolate raises an additional issue of course - slave labor. As does coffee. I've been having problems finding info on this, so if anyone has any - how do I find ethically OK chocolate and coffee - I'd love to know.
The labor involved in coffee and chocolate are both issues. Are fair trade varieties available in your location ? I do have access to fair trade coffee here, and I'm kind of spoilt for choice when it comes to fair trade and Fair for Life chocolate, most varieties of which are also certified vegan. One brand I know of that makes the nature of the circumstances of their workers who create their chocolate very public is Madecasse. Their 80 % bar is very good, and has a stong, sharp taste at first, which is love !0 -
I also wish people who were this passionate about food/meat products were more that engaged over homeless people- orphans and illegal immigrant issues.0
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eat all the foodz0
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morality is the only pro to veganism IMO (humans are definitely omnivores), and it comes with alot of cons, difficulty with foods, deficiencies, cost ect. (these are possibilities, not guarantees, which i think is an important point to make)
doesnt mean that being vegan is impossible or wrong (or not being a vegan for that matter). its a personal choice
This is exactly where I stand. If you're a vegan for moral reasons, more power to you, and that's the only reason you should need for deciding to go vegan. But it is a rather difficult diet to maintain, and wouldn't be possible in many parts of the world.
Here's my major sticking point - I totally understand vegetarians, who are concerned with not eating a creature who has been killed. But vegans - why is it morally wrong to eat eggs and dairy products? None of those involve the death or mistreatment of the animal (if they are ethically raised), and it's not like humans could release chickens and cows into the wild to roam free...they're domesticated animals. I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for this.0 -
The labor involved in coffee and chocolate are both issues. Are fair trade varieties available in your location ? I do have access to fair trade coffee here, and I'm kind of spoilt for choice when it comes to fair trade and Fair for Life chocolate, most varieties of which are also certified vegan. One brand I know of that makes the nature of the circumstances of their workers who create their chocolate very public is Madecasse. Their 80 % bar is very good, and has a stong, sharp taste at first, which is love !
I thought I read somewhere that Fair Trade sometimes wasn't? Like some slave produced got by under fair trade, but it was hard to tell if it was a one time thing or a chronic issue. It's hard to find reliable info.
I will check out Madecasse, thanks!0 -
Not sure how all chocolate contains bug bits ...? I have bars of chocolate in my cabinent that are Certified Vegan [1] and that standard requires that animal products not intentionally be included in a product. If they're in there incidentally, like fly legs in peanut butter, and not intentionally included, then it wouldn't apply. Intentionally eating insects isn't usually considered vegan, but as I mentioned in an earlier reply, some have argued that they should be allowed because they lack a central nervous system (it's a minority viewpoint, however).I happen to use isinglass in filtering my beer, irish moss sometimes too. Effective.
Now what about foodstuffs were animal contribution is part of the manufacturing process, such as chocolate?
All chocolate has bug bits in it. Or are bugs allowed for vegans?
[1] http://vegan.org/certify/
I was more referring to non-intentional addition. I've been in a few chocolate manufacturers, Taza, Scharffenberger... amongst others. Even in the cleanest storage areas you find gargantuan cockroaches that more than often make it into the conching machines, and becoming integrated into the chocolate. there is a lot in place to avoid it, but it does happen.
So there has to be intention in the addition. This is all pretty neat.0 -
The labor involved in coffee and chocolate are both issues. Are fair trade varieties available in your location ? I do have access to fair trade coffee here, and I'm kind of spoilt for choice when it comes to fair trade and Fair for Life chocolate, most varieties of which are also certified vegan. One brand I know of that makes the nature of the circumstances of their workers who create their chocolate very public is Madecasse. Their 80 % bar is very good, and has a stong, sharp taste at first, which is love !
I thought I read somewhere that Fair Trade sometimes wasn't? Like some slave produced got by under fair trade, but it was hard to tell if it was a one time thing or a chronic issue. It's hard to find reliable info.
I will check out Madecasse, thanks!
Correct, not all fair trade is. It's a matter of size, i've seen fairtrade coffee in multiple walmarts, (I only go in there to find ammo!) and I can only imagine that fair trade is just being used as an uncontrolled marketing label in this case.0 -
I read the same thing, too. I think it applied to a handful of cases, though it should still be investigated. Fair for Life is another certifier, and I'd imagine that products that can pass muster under a coupler of guidelines would be more likely to not involve slave labor, so perhaps the best solution is to look for multiple certifications on a label ?I thought I read somewhere that Fair Trade sometimes wasn't? Like some slave produced got by under fair trade, but it was hard to tell if it was a one time thing or a chronic issue. It's hard to find reliable info.
I will check out Madecasse, thanks!
Yeah, some manufacturers, like Madecasse, actually give the story behind their brand and how their profits are helping their workers, their living conditions, etc. Those types of companies are always my favorite
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None of those involve the death or mistreatment of the animal (if they are ethically raised), and it's not like humans could release chickens and cows into the wild to roam free...they're domesticated animals. I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for this.
As stated above, it's considered exploitation.0 -
None of those involve the death or mistreatment of the animal (if they are ethically raised), and it's not like humans could release chickens and cows into the wild to roam free...they're domesticated animals. I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for this.
As stated above, it's considered exploitation.
Okay- this is a 15 year old brain thing but I want to say chickens were not originally domestic.
They were wild animals- I remember specifically in high school reading about it- and thinking it was the most amusing thing of the week- I kept making up stories about feral and wild chickens. But- I mean- it's been 15+ years... I might have to research when I get home.0 -
all creatures love life. all creatures fear death.
therefore do not kill, or cause to kill.
nobody cares what the Buddha has to say in these parts.
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None of those involve the death or mistreatment of the animal (if they are ethically raised), and it's not like humans could release chickens and cows into the wild to roam free...they're domesticated animals. I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for this.
As stated above, it's considered exploitation.
Okay- this is a 15 year old brain thing but I want to say chickens were not originally domestic.
They were wild animals- I remember specifically in high school reading about it- and thinking it was the most amusing thing of the week- I kept making up stories about feral and wild chickens. But- I mean- it's been 15+ years... I might have to research when I get home.
http://www.govisithawaii.com/2008/07/07/why-does-kauai-have-so-many-wild-chickens/
I've never seen so many wild chickens in my life.0 -
That makes sense: there are supposedly animal parts in flour, too. Yep, veganism is all about intent. I realize that just by living, other animals will likely die. Fish can be killed in hydroelectric dams, insects smack one's windshield whilst driving, some animals are killed when crops are culled, etc, etc, but none are really the 'domain' which veganism seeks to address.I was more referring to non-intentional addition. I've been in a few chocolate manufacturers, Taza, Scharffenberger... amongst others. Even in the cleanest storage areas you find gargantuan cockroaches that more than often make it into the conching machines, and becoming integrated into the chocolate. there is a lot in place to avoid it, but it does happen.
So there has to be intention in the addition. This is all pretty neat.0 -
I also wish people who were this passionate about food/meat products were more that engaged over homeless people- orphans and illegal immigrant issues.
^^^^ 100% this...0 -
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all creatures love life. all creatures fear death.
therefore do not kill, or cause to kill.
nobody cares what the Buddha has to say in these parts.
Religious Reasons != Nutritional Reasons
Also, most Buddhist traditions do not require vegetarianism. The monks are forbidden from killing animals for food, or taking meat from animals that were killed for them. But, if they are offered food with meat in it, they are allowed to take and eat it without problems. I actually just recently read an in depth discussion of why that was permitted (it had to do with the fact that lay-Buddhists gain merit by providing for the monks and to refuse their offerings would deny them that merit). At the same time, the lay-Buddhists are not prohibited from eating meat themselves (as is obvious because it could be part of what they offer).
There really is no demand that Buddhists be vegetarian.0 -
all creatures love life. all creatures fear death.
therefore do not kill, or cause to kill.
Today's word is anthropomorphism. Can you say anthropomorphism?
I bet you can.0 -
all creatures love life. all creatures fear death.
therefore do not kill, or cause to kill.
nobody cares what the Buddha has to say in these parts.
You might want to research and study a bit more. Buddha did not pressure or suggest anyone be a vegetarian, nor was he strictly one himself. There are "rules" and considerations, but Budda did eat meat and Buddhist monks can and do eat meat. They also eat fish and insects (which, last I checked are living creatures too..sooooooo....)0 -
How do you know if someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you.First rule of vegan club - tell everyone about vegan club.0 -
I am vegan because I oppose the murder of nonhuman creatures for any reason. I do not believe in the theory that plants have feelings.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the recent University of Missouri-Columbia (MU) study where researchers found that plants may actually be able "hear" themselves being eaten.
They recorded a caterpillar munching the leaves of another plant and then played it for a plant whose leaves were not being eaten. They compared the plant's reaction to that of plants who were not being eaten and were not played the sound of the caterpillar and found that the plant that "listened" to the munching produced a significantly higher level of defensive oils which make the leaves unappetizing for caterpillars.
I'm not saying don't eat plants... but it is pretty interesting 0 -
If you've not done it, your missing out!
It's the most delicious food you've EVER eaten!
Having said that, I lean toward vegetarianism, but have done raw vegan before...the best food ever ever ever.
BUT I really don't think it's a good idea to go long term. Eat some meat and raw dairy!0 -
How do you know if someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you.First rule of vegan club - tell everyone about vegan club.
I kid, I kid.0 -
Just a simple question from someone who is still in the learning process. I eat cottage cheese, eggs, butter, fish etc but for the life of me I just don't like the TASTE of animal flesh or shell fish. I simply can't eat flesh, I gag when confronted with all the steaks laid out at the butchers, all the chickens looking like infants. It's nothing to do with how I was brought up, my entire family ate meat and my children and grandchildren eat meat too. I prepare meat at family gatherings, but don't like to. Am I a throwback? Is it possible that a few of us are actually predisposed that way. Just a question for some of you much more learned ones.0
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