Veganism

rivka_m

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

Gluten, flour, about 50% of processed sugar (beet sugar is vegan) and no doubt some of the "toxic food combinations" that you don't list are completely vegan, as are pesticide-covered plant foods.

As for health vs morality, I'd love to see a study that compares veganism to a diet that's mostly vegan with small amounts of animal products. Comparing the SAD to whole foods vegan isn't exactly a good comparison.

dbmata

At dbmata,

"Who cares?"

Obviously, you care. You have posted an extremely long item here! Taking such time shows that you care.

For whatever that is worth . . .

Very informative and convincing response there.

I'm convinced, and really, I'm just missing what kind of reply they had before they edited it.

My entire post, and the best they could do is reply to an obviously rhetorical question. lulz.

Brett_Mason

Hard to say everything I'd like to say without sounding like I'm anti-doctor, which I'm not. Doctors are not to blame because nutrition is nearly non existent in their 8 to 12 years of training. But that doesn't change the fact that they are mostly ignorant to nutrition. If I want to know how to set a bone or stitch up a laceration I'm calling a doctor. If I want to know what optimum nutrition is, a doctor is the last person on my list to call.

I was a laugh at the vegan guy for many years. All that time I continued to gain weight and my family members continued to die. Diatebes, cancer, heart attacks etc. I immersed myself in everything nutrition related I could find. In today's world being ignorant isn't an excuse. Many will warn you of the dangers of believing things you read on the internet but if you are serious and put in the time you will soon see what is crazy and what is legitimate.

The evidence of health dangers from animal products is no longer in doubt. Now that there are many HUMAN studies that confirm all of the previous theories, data studies and animal studies the conclusions are settled. Animal protein causes heart disease. Animal protein turns on cancer cells. Animal fats cause diabetes. End of story.

There are also about 10 documentaries that take anywhere from 8 to 20 people in each one and totally reverse their diseases in 21 to 30 days. Diabetes, high blood pressure, kidney disease and more. When this can so easily be duplicated by anyone now it seems silly to still be debating it.

As I mentioned earlier I was a laugh at vegans guy. For a long time. I am now a mostly raw food vegan. I have never felt better in my entire life and I can't imagine going back to eating animal products. The thought of it frightens me.

There is only one known deficiency with being a Vegan. B-12. Interesting enough about 40% of all meat eaters are also B-12 deficient so it's kind of ironic they label this as a Vegan only issue. I have several meat eating family members who get B-12 shots monthly. My mom is one of them. I also get a B-12 shot monthly.

But my diet is the problem? And their diet isn't the problem? Ok. Sure.

I challenge you if you are interested to try it for 7 days. It's hard to get enough calories on raw food which is why most people fail at it. So plan to drink mostly smoothies to help you with the calories. Have a 1000 calories breakfast smoothies with lots of bananas and coconut water. For lunch eat as much fruit as you can possibly hold. Bowls and bowls of it. For dinner have more fruit and a huge salad. If you hate salads then have another fruit smoothie with your greens in it. Another 1000 calories for dinner.

You won't crave sweets. You won't crave junk. You will feel amazing.

God Bless.

edit: I should add there are man Vegan who are eating just as bad as meat eaters. There are so many 'vegan' foods out there that are horrible. High fat. High additive. etc etc. There is a huge difference in being a Vegan and being a raw vegan. You can be pretty healthy as a Vegan if you eat right. You can also hurt your health a ton if you are a junk Vegan. So as with anything you must avoid generalizations.

dbmata

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health.

Gluten, flour, about 50% of processed sugar (beet sugar is vegan) and no doubt some of the "toxic food combinations" that you don't list are completely vegan, as are pesticide-covered plant foods.

As for health vs morality, I'd love to see a study that compares veganism to a diet that's mostly vegan with small amounts of animal products. Comparing the SAD to whole foods vegan isn't exactly a good comparison.

You mention beet sugar directly. Is cane sugar not vegan?

BlueBombers

morality is the only pro to veganism

"this. There is no health reason to go full vegan."

I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.

Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.

Please post peer reviewed articles from scholarly journals supporting the prevention and reversal of heart disease and diabetes with only a switch to veganism, and not other modifiers such as reduced weight due to intake of fewer calories.

I'll check back in a few, I'm very curious to see that.

:flowerforyou:

dbmata

Animal protein causes heart disease. Animal protein turns on cancer cells. Animal fats cause diabetes. End of story.

Could you be so kind to help educate me. Can you point me to any papers from peer reviewed scientific journals that support any of that? I know several people researching different aspects of cancer, and they've never agreed with the concept of animal protein turning "on" cancer cells. Particularly considering what cancer is.

Thanks for helping me.
God Bless.

HerbertNenenger

By the way I said NO BASHING. These aren't my statements, just copying and pasting different arguments from different sites. I don't even SUPPORT any of them. Just posting so other can debate.

Oh I forgot to mention one of those Vegan PROS that says we are not attracted to raw meat and have to cook it in order for it to appeal to us. Other animals it it raw, ripping flesh with their teeth and talons. Cooked meat breaks down the proteins and turns the fat into carcinogens.

But a CON would be attributed towards those who are religious: the Bible says God told us to eat meat.

If the bit about the cooked meat containing carcinogens were absolutely true, then There would be ZERO Mongolians, who eat only horse meat, horse fat, and horse milk. There are no veggies, fruits or grains to speak of. Their lifespan is 68 years (only 10 years lower than the U.S.'s, and it's a developing country, so all-in-all, it's very impressive). There are lots of articles about it - I suggest you read for a bit of open-eye. One is "the Mongolian Meat Diet: An Inconvenient Truth for Vegans".

Mind you, I am not touting either way to be good. There are days where I eat a lot of meat, and days where I eat none at all. I think, like others have said, it's a personal choice,and all things in moderation.

FIT_Goat

Now that there are many HUMAN studies that confirm all of the previous theories, data studies and animal studies the conclusions are settled. Animal protein causes heart disease. Animal protein turns on cancer cells. Animal fats cause diabetes. End of story.

OMG!!! Finally, someone with actual science. Please link to the peer reviewed studies on HUMANS that demonstrate the following claims:

1) Animal protein causes heart disease
2) Animal protein turns on cancer cells
3) Animal fats cause diabetes

You claim their are many such studies. It should be easy to find one or two for each of those claims.

Also, please be careful that the studies show cause and not correlation. I've been waiting for years for the evidence to come in. I can't believe it all arrived without me noticing!

TraePalmer

You mention beet sugar directly. Is cane sugar not vegan?

It's grey area amongst vegans. Certain manufacturers use animal bone char during the refinement process of cane sugar; no bone char remains in the final product, however, so cane sugar, itself, is not an animal product. Animal byproducts are sometimes used in its refinement, however.

That said, vegan sugar is available at many health food stores for those really concerned with this.

rivka_m

Gluten, flour, about 50% of processed sugar (beet sugar is vegan) and no doubt some of the "toxic food combinations" that you don't list are completely vegan, as are pesticide-covered plant foods.

You mention beet sugar directly. Is cane sugar not vegan?

Cane sugar is usually processed using bone char, so it's usually not - not due to the ingredients but due to the process. There's organic and less-processed cane sugar that is vegan. Beet sugar processing doesn't use bone char.

dbmata

Thanks Trae, that was pretty interesting. I'll look into that a little more sometime.


ETA - just started looking into bone char, but it looks like it is a commonly used filtration agent in municipal water supplies. Thereby rendering that water supply as non-vegan, yes?

1HappyRedhead

Veganism and vegans are a funny bunch. So many opinions about why we should or shouldn't be. Even within the community, there are factions. It is a group comprised of militants and pacifists like any other.

As a vegan my opinion is simple: for whatever reason(s) you started and whatever reason(s) you stick with it, the end result is the same.

You eat your food and live your lifestyle the way it works for you and I'll do the same. I won't hassle you; don't hassle me. I'll do what I think is right for me and my world and you will do the same.

Walk the middle path.

^You.... I like you. I'm not vegan, but I like your "live and let live" attitude. :flowerforyou:

Brett_Mason

Sure. Google Colin Cambell. He did 2 human studies. One where people with tumors were put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk or disappeard. The second study used people with no cancer or tumors and they were followed for years. A percentage of them developed cancer cells. Those people were then put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk and disappears.

Dr Essestyn has now done two human studies where heart disease (the first study was on people so severe medical was done with them) and they reversed heart disease with a plant based diet.

Just so you know your sarcasm shows you do not care about studies and you have no desire to learn anything. You have your believes and you just want to scoff at thing you don't believe in.

And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.

rivka_m

Thanks Trae, that was pretty interesting. I'll look into that a little more sometime.


ETA - just started looking into bone char, but it looks like it is a commonly used filtration agent in municipal water supplies. Thereby rendering that water supply as non-vegan, yes?

I imagine so, but there's a limit to what people can do, even the most dedicated.

Me, I'm lazy and not even 100% vegetarian but beet sugar is widely available where I am so it's an easy choice. Not using any municipal water - not so easy.

dbmata

Sorry Brett, do you have direct links to the papers themselves that were published in journals? That way we know they are credible.

You made the claim, please back it, otherwise the statements seem as if they are mere belief and marketing as opposed to verified scientific theory.

ETA - Brett, this is the first thing I found about Colin Cambell.

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

This is why we ask for peer reviewed articles to verify such questionable claims. The links regarding Cambell do not suggest he is credible.

dbmata

Thanks Trae, that was pretty interesting. I'll look into that a little more sometime.


ETA - just started looking into bone char, but it looks like it is a commonly used filtration agent in municipal water supplies. Thereby rendering that water supply as non-vegan, yes?

I imagine so, but there's a limit to what people can do, even the most dedicated.

Me, I'm lazy and not even 100% vegetarian but beet sugar is widely available where I am so it's an easy choice. Not using any municipal water - not so easy.

Agreed, but where does it start and stop? If one is willing to use a product for one thing but not the other, does it beg the question about consistency?

Just spitballing here. Obviously, if we were all on good well water supplies, it wouldn't even be an issue.

ironanimal

Sure. Google Colin Cambell. He did 2 human studies. One where people with tumors were put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk or disappeard. The second study used people with no cancer or tumors and they were followed for years. A percentage of them developed cancer cells. Those people were then put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk and disappears.

Dr Essestyn has now done two human studies where heart disease (the first study was on people so severe medical was done with them) and they reversed heart disease with a plant based diet.

Just so you know your sarcasm shows you do not care about studies and you have no desire to learn anything. You have your believes and you just want to scoff at thing you don't believe in.

And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.

Searching for Colin Campbell doesn't really help. I've just tried, and can't find any studies done by him, so a direct link would be helpful despite your indignation.

Edit; found a Youtube video, with some guys talking on a podium sponsored by vegsource.com ; not really that compelling.

FunkyTobias

Sure. Google Colin Cambell. He did 2 human studies. One where people with tumors were put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk or disappeard. The second study used people with no cancer or tumors and they were followed for years. A percentage of them developed cancer cells. Those people were then put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk and disappears.

Dr Essestyn has now done two human studies where heart disease (the first study was on people so severe medical was done with them) and they reversed heart disease with a plant based diet.

Citation?

Just so you know your sarcasm shows you do not care about studies and you have no desire to learn anything. You have your believes and you just want to scoff at thing you don't believe in.

And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.

It's called "burden of proof". You are the one making the claim, thus YOU are the one who must provide support for it.

FIT_Goat

Sure. Google Colin Cambell. He did 2 human studies. One where people with tumors were put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk or disappeard. The second study used people with no cancer or tumors and they were followed for years. A percentage of them developed cancer cells. Those people were then put on a plant based diet and the tumors shrunk and disappears.

Where is the peer-review? Where is the proof of cause and not correlation? Where is the abstract?

Dr Essestyn has now done two human studies where heart disease (the first study was on people so severe medical was done with them) and they reversed heart disease with a plant based diet.

Link to the actual studies and their abstracts? How does he demonstrate cause and not correlation? What other similar studies were done by other groups that demonstrated that his results were repeatable and reliable?

Just so you know your sarcasm shows you do not care about studies and you have no desire to learn anything. You have your believes and you just want to scoff at thing you don't believe in.

And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.

You're misrepresenting the evidence. You are spreading misinformation. I will be as sarcastic as I need to be. If there was actual, peer-reviewed, evidence of animal protein causing heart disease or cancer, it would be easy to find in professional research papers and well publicized.

You made some very strong claims. Why should I have to prove your claims? You made the statements, prove it. You probably won't be able to, because it is clear from the summary above that such proof likely does not exist. This shows a lack of understanding as to what constitutes science and proof.

Also, what about the animal fat and diabetes?

TraePalmer

Thanks Trae, that was pretty interesting. I'll look into that a little more sometime.


ETA - just started looking into bone char, but it looks like it is a commonly used filtration agent in municipal water supplies. Thereby rendering that water supply as non-vegan, yes?

LOL...yeah, when taken to ridiculous extremes (and some individuals do just this) a lot of things become non-vegan. If no animal part is left in the final product, then it's technically not considered an animal food by food scientists, and from the official vegan society page

--'From 'junk food vegans' to raw food vegans - and everything in between - there's a version of veganism to suit everyone. Yet one thing we all have in common is a plant-based diet avoiding all animal foods such as meat, dairy, eggs and honey - as well as products like leather and any tested on animals.'

Isinglass used in the filtration of some alcohol products, minute amounts of gelatin added to wine as a thickener and mono/diaglycerols / glycerine that are occasionally from animals are also in the same 'grey' category. I'm not an official spokesperson by any means, but *most* vegans I know don't go this extreme in ingredient restriction. Some will call companies, however, to determine whether or not the ingredient in question is, in fact, derived from animal or nonanimal sources and then make their choice from there.

ladyofthelakeontario

And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.

No. You make a claim, it's up to you to have the sources to back it up. Name calling because you were asked to cite YOUR source (as the person making the claim) is inappropriate.

mayfrayy

Vegan is wrong, logically.

If killing an animal for sustenance is bad, there would be no food chain, life would cease to exists. If all animals were herbivores, the planet would be out of balance (carbon dioxide, overgrazing, overpopulation without modern agriculture) and life would cease to exist.

In my opinion, anyone who is vegan is doing it to make them feel better about themselves. I don't care what they do, but that is my opinion.

Also, any studies into cancer with plant-based diets would be fundamentally flawed. L2science.

TraePalmer

Agreed, but where does it start and stop? If one is willing to use a product for one thing but not the other, does it beg the question about consistency?

Just spitballing here. Obviously, if we were all on good well water supplies, it wouldn't even be an issue.

From the vegan society 'Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.'

Abstaining from using water is not possible or practicable. Animal blood is also used in the manufacture of car tires, but for a lot of people, going without a car or affording a new set of tires from Michelin (one of the only companies that does not use animal blood) is neither practicable, nor possible.

It is a subjective line, but the degree to which it slides is still within a range. As an example, all meat and/or dairy products would never be vegan, unless someone were on a desert island or something. Some people do try to make an argument for honey, insects and bivalves, as the respective animals don't possess a central nervous system, but that's about as far as I've ever seen the 'line' slide, and even then, such a viewpoint is extremely uncommon.

dbmata

I happen to use isinglass in filtering my beer, irish moss sometimes too. Effective.

Now what about foodstuffs were animal contribution is part of the manufacturing process, such as chocolate?

All chocolate has bug bits in it. Or are bugs allowed for vegans?

Hornsby

Vegan is wrong, logically.

If killing an animal for sustenance is bad, there would be no food chain, life would cease to exists. If all animals were herbivores, the planet would be out of balance (carbon dioxide, overgrazing, overpopulation without modern agriculture) and life would cease to exist.

In my opinion, anyone who is vegan is doing it to make them feel better about themselves. I don't care what they do, but that is my opinion.

Also, any studies into cancer with plant-based diets would be fundamentally flawed. L2science.

For the record, I am indifferent to your comment, but I will say this....it made me laugh.

xmichaelyx

PRO Veganism
...

2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health. ...

You know pesticides, gluten, flour, and processed sugar have nothing at all to do with eating meat, right?

In fact, most food scares I've seen recently have been tainted vegetables, including organic vegetables. Sprouts in particular are prone to contamination.

If you're vegan for food safety reasons, you're either growing it yourself or you're deluded.

dbmata

Agreed, but where does it start and stop? If one is willing to use a product for one thing but not the other, does it beg the question about consistency?

Just spitballing here. Obviously, if we were all on good well water supplies, it wouldn't even be an issue.

From the vegan society 'Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.'

Abstaining from using water is not possible or practicable. Animal blood is also used in the manufacture of car tires, but for a lot of people, going without a car or affording a new set of tires from Michelin (one of the only companies that does not use animal blood) is neither practicable, nor possible.

It is a subjective line, but the degree to which it slides is still within a range. As an example, all meat and/or dairy products would never be vegan, unless someone were on a desert island or something. Some people do try to make an argument for honey, insects and bivalves, as the respective animals don't possess a central nervous system, but that's about as far as I've ever seen the 'line' slide, and even then, such a viewpoint is extremely uncommon.

"all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to"

Interesting. I hunt, fish, and gather. Assumably since my goal is to ingest, it is exploitation, yes? Cruelty? I avoid that, I'm very effective.

Honey would definitely be exploitation, but what about co-relationships, akin to kopi luwak coffee? (getting tangenty, this is interesting.)

FIT_Goat

What is funny is what I get when I google "animal protein heart disease". The first link is to an article: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx talking about how vegans and vegetarians may be at an increased risk of heart disease and why that may be. Certainly, you would think the first result would be to something regarding the absolute proof that animal protein causes heart disease, not the opposite.

I'm not claiming that this is proof of any sort. I would need to read it and look at their sources. But, it certainly suggests the matter isn't nearly as "proven" as it was made to be.

TraePalmer

I happen to use isinglass in filtering my beer, irish moss sometimes too. Effective.

Now what about foodstuffs were animal contribution is part of the manufacturing process, such as chocolate?

All chocolate has bug bits in it. Or are bugs allowed for vegans?

Not sure how all chocolate contains bug bits ...? I have bars of chocolate in my cabinent that are Certified Vegan [1] and that standard requires that animal products not intentionally be included in a product. If they're in there incidentally, like fly legs in peanut butter, and not intentionally included, then it wouldn't apply. Intentionally eating insects isn't usually considered vegan, but as I mentioned in an earlier reply, some have argued that they should be allowed because they lack a central nervous system (it's a minority viewpoint, however).

[1] http://vegan.org/certify/

ironanimal

What is funny is what I get when I google "animal protein heart disease". The first link is to an article: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx talking about how vegans and vegetarians may be at an increased risk of heart disease and why that may be. Certainly, you would think the first result would be to something regarding the absolute proof that animal protein causes heart disease, not the opposite.

I'm not claiming that this is proof of any sort. I would need to read it and look at their sources. But, it certainly suggests the matter isn't nearly as "proven" as it was made to be.

Yah, take anything from mercola with a large pile of salt, on either side of whatever topic it's discussing.