Veganism

FIT_Goat

To be fair- I did say- and I quote
"If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this"

But that is clearly NOT a personal attack. Or calling the OP unintelligent or ignorant or stupid, nor is it bashing her.

Yeah, I read that. I didn't think it was a personal attack (because it wasn't). That's why I didn't include it when responding the the OP's claims of persecution. I guess, if I stretch, I could see how it could be taken as insulting. But, I didn't read it that way.

fangedneko

I could see how it could be taken as insulting.

I could see it as insulting if one was trying to use imagined persecution as an excuse to ignore the legitimate rebuttals of their indefensible argument.

shadowofender

I haven't done much research. All I know is, damn I love meat. I feel fine when I eat it, and I have no moral objection to it. My uncle is a cattleherd. Those cows live happier lives than I do. I've seen them.

Squamation

Except chicken nugget goop. Male chicks are thrown live into a grinder. I saw it. Don't tell me that's not how we get chicken nugget goop because I watched it firsthand.

I am not an expert, and this ^^ is unfortunately how most chicken farms decide to dispose of their male chicks, but that is not where chicken nugget goop comes from.

The goop left over from the baby boys (that the FARMER uses) is simply thrown away.

The extractor used (by the chicken FACTORY) to get all the remaining meat/edible parts off of a chicken carcass to get chicken nugget goop is a very similar process, however it's NOT from live chicks- it's from the bones and mostly tendons after the prime cuts of chicken meat have been stripped off.

JoRocka

To be fair- I did say- and I quote
"If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this"

But that is clearly NOT a personal attack. Or calling the OP unintelligent or ignorant or stupid, nor is it bashing her.

Yeah, I read that. I didn't think it was a personal attack (because it wasn't). That's why I didn't include it when responding the the OP's claims of persecution. I guess, if I stretch, I could see how it could be taken as insulting. But, I didn't read it that way.

yep.
And it wasn't- so no sense to read it that way. You were correct.

I could see it as insulting if one was trying to use imagined persecution as an excuse to ignore the legitimate rebuttals of their indefensible argument.

LOL we have a lot of imagined persecution here- so it happens- I'm not really all that surprised- even with my vanilla response

poedunk65

There really is no debate to be had. It's a totally personal choice that requires no justification.

I am mostly vegan/vegetarian because I choose to be.

I can tell you when I cut the dairy out of my diet and limit the grains. The constant arthritic pain in my hands and feet went away. I also lost a ton of weight which got me off my diabetic meds.

I would direct questions to 2) movies; Forks Over Knives and Hungry For A Change.:drinker:

dbmata

To be fair- I did say- and I quote
"If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this"

But that is clearly NOT a personal attack. Or calling the OP unintelligent or ignorant or stupid, nor is it bashing her.

Yeah, I read that. I didn't think it was a personal attack (because it wasn't). That's why I didn't include it when responding the the OP's claims of persecution. I guess, if I stretch, I could see how it could be taken as insulting. But, I didn't read it that way.

It's not an attack.

It's a clear reach and indicative of someone looking for validation by manufacturing offense where offense does not exist. I'd tread lightly from here on out, I'm not entirely sure this thread is meant for honest, open discourse.

BlueBombers

I'm not a vegan. To each their own.

Rerun201

Point by Point


1. Humans are not carnivores.

Correct statement in that we are not only meat eaters. We've been omnivores for eons. Studies and science cannot change that. We may be evolving to herbivores, but based on what I eat, I'd say I'm not there yet. Guess I'm behind on the evolutionary scale. I also find it absolutely amazing that the vast majority of humans on the planet (we're talking in the billions here) are omnivores, when all these studies say that it is against our nature and physiology. If all the evidence says that humans are designed to be vegan, who is the piper that led us down the road of ruination by convincing us it is okay to eat meat? That had to be the biggest marketing feat ever!


2. Food safety

Now I think we're off into organic vs. non-organic arguments. You can be a non-organic vegan and still have those concerns with pesticides.

3. Mistreatment of animals

Check and see how KFC gets their chicken. Chances are your chicken breast are from a very similar process, especially if purchased at your local grocery store.

Animals (free range and grass fed) are treated pretty well...right up to the time they're killed for consumption. I would say most would call that mistreatment. I know I would feel mistreated if someone were to kill me. Let's ask the guy in Arizona if he feels he was mistreated.


CONS of Veganism:

1. Deficiencies

If you eat the right foods, you can make up these deficiencies. It's mostly about combining the proper foods.

2. Morality

Now we're getting out to where the buses don't run, but I do like that you recognize that, while those wearing the capes with the big V are claiming the moral high ground because they don't kill living things, they need to take a look at where their fruits, vegetables and nuts come from. These are living things and when you chomp on them, they are dead..

The sad fact is that pro-vegan activist like to use this argument to guilt us meat eaters into something we don't want to do. Yet are they out there with the meat eating lions, tigers and such convincing them to not eat other animals? Then why pick on me? Oh, because it is against the law for me to kill them for doing so and I have sufficient MORALITY to make them feel safe enough to approach me to espouse their viewpoint.

3. Environment:

Pesticides consumption can be tricky, but I'd be willing to bet a Big Mac that there is no place in the continental U. S. that hasn't had the water contaminated to some degree with some sort of chemical. If someone is watering crops to the extent they are causing a drought, that's news to me. Also a bit counterproductive. What good is your crop if everyone you are selling it to dies of thirst?

My thoughts:

Vegan or vegetarian-why the distinction? It's because a vegetarian is just a sort of committed vegan, unwilling to take their alleged belief to the point of discomfort in not being able to enjoy some of the foods they've loved since birth. "I''m a vegetarian so I can eat eggs and drink milk. I just don't eat meat". Yes, you do. It is just the meat hasn't matured yet. Someone I know recently went vegetarian and continues to buy snack crackers and other such fare. Read the labels and see what sort of products that come from animal flesh are in there.

If someone wants to go vegan or vegetarian, I say go for it. I have known people that have done so; some stick with it some don't. Personally, I would miss a good sirloin steak, medium well (preferably from Ruth's Chris Steak House) way too much if I went that route.

But if you want to go vegan, just do it and be quiet about it. I don't say a word to people about my choices until they get all up in my grille (pun intended) about trying to convert me to their choice. Like the woman soliciting money for All Species Kinship in front of the grocery store, asking me about don't I want to have a special kinship with the little critters. I told her I do have that kinship, every time I grill their flesh. I think she threw up a bit in her mouth; Like I said - I don't push mine on you so don't think because I'm walking in the store you can push yours on me without getting a little pushback.

Then again, I'm a bit childish that way.

FunkyTobias

If anyone mentions Gorillas, keep in mind they are omnivores, as are all of the great apes.

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1e.shtml

dbmata

The goop left over from the baby boys (that the FARMER uses) is simply thrown away.

Usually repurposed for pet feed or compost. Along with eggs. The process is visibly rough to see, but it happens so fast that their CNS doesn't have time to sense and respond to the stimulus. I hope when I go it is as quick, although, I'd prefer it to not be in a big grinder.

The extractor used (by the chicken FACTORY) to get all the remaining meat/edible parts off of a chicken carcass to get chicken nugget goop is a very similar process, however it's NOT from live chicks- it's from the bones and mostly tendons after the prime cuts of chicken meat have been stripped off.

Somewhat similar, but it's also the same process used to get anchovy paste, crab paste, shrimp paste, etc.

ScaryMaryOne

At JoRocka,

morality is the only pro to veganism

"this. There is no health reason to go full vegan. [/quote]"

I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.

Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.

FIT_Goat

There really is no debate to be had. It's a totally personal choice that requires no justification.

I am mostly vegan/vegetarian because I choose to be.

You and I may be on completely opposite sides of the diet spectrum, but on this we agree. If you want to be vegan, you have no requirement to justify your choice to anyone. If you don't want to be, you also have no requirement to justify that decision.

dbmata

morality is the only pro to veganism

"this. There is no health reason to go full vegan."

I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.

Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.

Please post peer reviewed articles from scholarly journals supporting the prevention and reversal of heart disease and diabetes with only a switch to veganism, and not other modifiers such as reduced weight due to intake of fewer calories.

I'll check back in a few, I'm very curious to see that.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Hornsby

All credibility is shot out the window when Lustig is brought up.

BigT555

At JoRocka,

morality is the only pro to veganism

"this. There is no health reason to go full vegan.

"

I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.

Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.

ill read up on this when i have time later tonight, but ill say this for now, there may be health related positives to veganism, but there are also negatives (previously mentioned in this thread; anemia, vitamin deficiencies) . the real question is do the pro's outweigh the cons

also, quick google search yeilded some results that disagree with Esselstine and Lustig;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23497300

eric_sg61

All credibility is shot out the window when Lustig is brought up.

Say his name 3 times and derp appears.

MaiLinna

Now now, don't go bashing me personally. I am simply listing, mostly word for word, arguments I found on other sites and blogs I was perusing today.

I am not bashing you personally. I am pointing out that pretty much everything on your lists aren't actually evidence in either direction.

Except chicken nugget goop. Male chicks are thrown live into a grinder. I saw it. Don't tell me that's not how we get chicken nugget goop because I watched it firsthand.

*sigh*

Male chicks are typically culled. Despite the apparent horror of the grinder, it is actually one of the quickest and most humane ways to kill these unwanted male chicks. Death is almost instantaneous. It's horrible. I'm not arguing that it's not. But, it's not cruel.

As for the ground up chicks, they are not part of the components of chicken nuggets. That is just plain false. It may be sold in pet foods, or other animal feeds, but it is not sold for human consumption. You're not eating ground up male chicks when you eat nuggets.

Don't eat the nuggets in Mexico then. XD I'm warnin ya.

ScaryMaryOne

"Who cares?"

Obviously, you care. You have posted an extremely long item here! Taking such time shows that you care.

For whatever that is worth . . .

ironanimal

At dbmata,

"Who cares?"

Obviously, you care. You have posted an extremely long item here! Taking such time shows that you care.

For whatever that is worth . . .

Very informative and convincing response there.

FIT_Goat

Don't eat the nuggets in Mexico then. XD I'm warnin ya.

Do you have a source that demonstrates this claim (ground up male chicks are used in chicken nuggets available in Mexico)? If not, please don't spread this sort of nonsense.

leahraskie

Most doctors don't recommend complete veganism. It's mostly because there is too many restrictions on food and sometimes it is difficult to get all nutrients even on a vegetarian diet. So I'd suggest vegetarian is a better way to go.

darkguardian419

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that's about all I can say without getting my hand smacked.

mountainrun73

I find this topic and most parts of this thread interesting. I have been curious about vegetarian/vegan styles of eating for a while, and often have meat-free meals or whole days. But not sure I'd be able to go meat free entirely, as sometimes I crave animal protein.

Hornsby

Most doctors don't recommend complete veganism. It's mostly because there is too many restrictions on food and sometimes it is difficult to get all nutrients even on a vegetarian diet. So I'd suggest vegetarian is a better way to go.

Most doctors know very little about nutrition.

MaiLinna

Don't eat the nuggets in Mexico then. XD I'm warnin ya.

Do you have a source that demonstrates this claim (ground up male chicks are used in chicken nuggets available in Mexico)? If not, please don't spread this sort of nonsense.

No he was forced to remove the video because it was too graphic. I've tried for over a week to find it elsewhere. No luck. I heard he got fired for posting it on Facebook though.

FIT_Goat

"He" posted a video showing male chicks being ground and then made into nuggets to be served in Mexico? he lost his job for this? Then he was forced to take the video down. And, there's no record of any of these things online?

Do you understand why these statements don't improve the credibility of the claim?


The following is a link to a video showing this. The comments are full of repeated and unsubstantiated claims that this is then used for chicken nuggets. But, there's no actual evidence to that fact.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee6_1391310852

TraePalmer

There really is no debate to be had. It's a totally personal choice that requires no justification.

This. I'm a vegan, but I don't really concern myself with other people's diets.

When people who are interested in trying a vegan diet ask me how to start, however, I usually will direct them to the following two books/eBooks:
1/ Vegan for Life by Ginny Messina and Jack Norris
2/ Becoming Vegan Express Edition by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina

I advise people considering a vegan diet to read these first and then decide whether or not such a diet sounds feasible to them before they attempt to go fully vegan, as one *can* run into nutrient deficiencies without a bit of planning ahead of time. It's absolutely possible to acquire such deficiencies, but generally also avoidable with a bit of research and mindfulness about what one's eating day-to-day. Also the books are written within the context of generally accepted, science-based dietetics principles: certain variations of the vegan diet (aka 'plant-based diet') advise macronutrient ratios outside of the AMDR or those recommended by the WHO/FAO (typically, a macronutrient distribution that's extremely low in fat and protein) or promote things like a very high intake of raw foods, both of which can be very difficult for certain individuals to follow and are unnecessary for ethical vegans -- i e, those who simply wish to minimize as much as practical and possible their use of animals.

lngbrd

"He" posted a video showing male chicks being ground and then made into nuggets to be served in Mexico? he lost his job for this? Then he was forced to take the video down. And, there's no record of any of these things online?

Do you understand why these statements don't improve the credibility of the claim?

Worked for the IRS