Sugar is the new "Devil"

BigT555

I'm sorry EXCUSE ME.....where did you get that I was a dispatcher? I am a first responder. In NYC don't run into fires because that's why we have the Fire Department. I'm not even sure where you even got the inclination that I was a dispatcher.

You have a heart attack, you cut your hand off, your mother is dying, you dial 911, I show up. You rely on me.

Now answer the question without all the mumbo jumbo. You said if people got paid what they felt they deserved they would be willing to work, so how much is my job worth in your opinion. What is the minimum I should hold out for before I go to work now. Not in a fantasy world. Today 2014.

if you were the ever-helpful saint you're making yourself out to be you'd do it for free

bunnylion

So how much does health insurance cost in the US?

It depends. A good bit of the US system revolves around employer-based insurance. If you have to buy it yourself,* there are now exchanges, but the prices vary depending on what state you are in and what you buy as well as (to some extent) personal details. Before the exchanges the prices for private insurance varied even more depending on personal details and the kind of plan purchased, and of course there was the preexisting condition factor.

I understand that health insurance is not mandatory in the US but how does it work if you want it but can't afford it (being a student or being unemployed etc.)?

Well, it kind of is now (although there are exceptions and also the penalty if you don't have it is only a pretty small financial one (tax, contrary to the preferred language of Congress, but as explained by Justice Roberts).

But the answer is that it's subsidized. And those up to 26 will or can be covered by their parents' insurance.

*People with employer-based pay for it, whether it's taken out of their salaries or their employers pay for all of it directly as a benefit that's in reality part of their salary, but they don't have to contract for it, as it's a group plan their employer contracts for.

Maybe I'm stupid: But why then would anybody show up at a hospital requiring a longer stay or other expensive care, NOT have health insurance and be in debt for the years to come as was stated above?
I'm lost :ohwell:

MityMax96

I'm sorry EXCUSE ME.....where did you get that I was a dispatcher? I am a first responder. In NYC don't run into fires because that's why we have the Fire Department. I'm not even sure where you even got the inclination that I was a dispatcher.

You have a heart attack, you cut your hand off, your mother is dying, you dial 911, I show up. You rely on me.

Now answer the question without all the mumbo jumbo. You said if people got paid what they felt they deserved they would be willing to work, so how much is my job worth in your opinion. What is the minimum I should hold out for before I go to work now. Not in a fantasy world. Today 2014.

if you were the ever-helpful saint you're making yourself out to be you'd do it for free

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Knew it was coming at some point.

CarynMacD

In closing:

I'm not even going to comment on the healthcare facilities and services in South Africa - IT IS SHOCKING!!!!! My grandfather landed up at a government hospital. I went to visit him and took him some yoghurt, fruit and something to drink. THEY REFUSED TO FEED HIM BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THEM - HE HAD FOOD ALREADY. He died.

I also had to take him blankets and pillows.

Payment Plan: Er What's That? No such thing here.

Welfare: No such thing here.

Here you have to have Private Medical Insurance otherwise you're stuffed.

People lie in corridors, on the floor, etc. in government hospitals because there are not enough beds/staff to resource these facilities. The "sweetened drink tax" apparently is going to be put forward to build new hospitals and clinics, unyet they cannot properly staff and equip existing facilities.

How about preventing people from getting ill in the first place. I'm all for taxes on "bad things", I really am. But address the cause not the symptom. Proper sanitation, water, reduce tax on "the good things". And for goodness sake EDUCATE people and stop the endless breeding.

I'm all for taxes as long as I can see a result in the society I live in, but unfortunately the decay, rot, corruption and mis-appropriation of funds we experience here, with our tax-payers money (approximately 10% of the population contribute to our tax base) is cause for concern.

Don't disguise or try and trick me into paying additional taxes that can be mis-used by saying "I think it's a grand idea to impose tax on sweetened drinks."

They are NOT concerned about the general health of the population, otherwise a blanket "sugar" tax would have been imposed. Why drill it down to one item "sweetened drinks" - in the name of new hospitals. Yeh right!

I'm smelling a rat!

MityMax96

So how much does health insurance cost in the US?

It depends. A good bit of the US system revolves around employer-based insurance. If you have to buy it yourself,* there are now exchanges, but the prices vary depending on what state you are in and what you buy as well as (to some extent) personal details. Before the exchanges the prices for private insurance varied even more depending on personal details and the kind of plan purchased, and of course there was the preexisting condition factor.

I understand that health insurance is not mandatory in the US but how does it work if you want it but can't afford it (being a student or being unemployed etc.)?

Well, it kind of is now (although there are exceptions and also the penalty if you don't have it is only a pretty small financial one (tax, contrary to the preferred language of Congress, but as explained by Justice Roberts).

But the answer is that it's subsidized. And those up to 26 will or can be covered by their parents' insurance.

*People with employer-based pay for it, whether it's taken out of their salaries or their employers pay for all of it directly as a benefit that's in reality part of their salary, but they don't have to contract for it, as it's a group plan their employer contracts for.

Maybe I'm stupid: But why then would anybody show up at a hospital requiring a longer stay or other expensive care, NOT have health insurance and be in debt for the years to come as was stated above?
I'm lost :ohwell:

Because most ppl that do show up in ER that can't pay, it gets rolled over to the State, so the state picks it up

BigT555

Help on MFP to people looking to have their emotions massaged and be told what they want to hear? Not so much.
Others that are willing to put in the work. Yes.

I'm not a saint by any means. I'm a narcissistic, arrogant individual and I don't deny that. I'm desensitized to human emotion of other people's pain and woes. It still changes nothing about what I do for a living and how much I think I'm worth. I do my job to the best of my ability using my brain, not my heart and I'm pretty damn good at what I do.

i can respect that. but i'm not referring to previous posts on other threads (which btw i think are usually pretty helpful and spot on point), im talking about the way your talking about your job. EMT's provide a vital service, but its something that you get paid for. i appreciate pride in a mans work, but the way you're talking half the population of NY would be gone if it weren't for MrM27 in the back of that ambulance. even cashiers and metermaids play their part in society

lemurcat12

So how much does health insurance cost in the US?

It depends. A good bit of the US system revolves around employer-based insurance. If you have to buy it yourself,* there are now exchanges, but the prices vary depending on what state you are in and what you buy as well as (to some extent) personal details. Before the exchanges the prices for private insurance varied even more depending on personal details and the kind of plan purchased, and of course there was the preexisting condition factor.

I understand that health insurance is not mandatory in the US but how does it work if you want it but can't afford it (being a student or being unemployed etc.)?

Well, it kind of is now (although there are exceptions and also the penalty if you don't have it is only a pretty small financial one (tax, contrary to the preferred language of Congress, but as explained by Justice Roberts).

But the answer is that it's subsidized. And those up to 26 will or can be covered by their parents' insurance.

*People with employer-based pay for it, whether it's taken out of their salaries or their employers pay for all of it directly as a benefit that's in reality part of their salary, but they don't have to contract for it, as it's a group plan their employer contracts for.

Maybe I'm stupid: But why then would anybody show up at a hospital requiring a longer stay or other expensive care, NOT have health insurance and be in debt for the years to come as was stated above?
I'm lost :ohwell:

I didn't read the exchange you are talking about carefully, but that sounds like it's about the situation pre-Obamacare. We only just went to the situation where you are supposed to have insurance. But also health insurance is expensive and there are limits to the subsidies, so someone might not be willing to pay the subsidized price or, I suppose, someone who doesn't qualify for subsidies might choose not to buy it.

As for why, even apart from ability to pay, people may assume they will not need insurance (or do the cost benefit analysis and decide to risk it), so go without. And then they need the care due to stuff that happens--an accident or illness.

MityMax96

I didn't read the exchange you are talking about carefully, but that sounds like it's about the situation pre-Obamacare. We only just went to the situation where you are supposed to have insurance. But also health insurance is expensive and there are limits to the subsidies, so someone might not be willing to pay the subsidized price or, I suppose, someone who doesn't qualify for subsidies might choose not to buy it.

especially now that w/ Obamacare you can wait til you are being wheeled into the hospital to get your insurance.

kgeyser

News Flash: NOTHING is free. Your healthcare isn't really free because you're actually paying for it in the form of higher taxes.

To the original post: I am against a "sin" tax. The government needs to stop trying to control every aspect of our lives because that's exactly what this is about: control. Next they're going to put a "sin" tax on anything that they deem to be unhealthy. Next they'll be telling us what we can and can not eat.

Sugary drinks are not a necessity, similar to alcohol and tobacco. They are luxury items. Candy is also a luxury item. I could see a day where more things are taxed as such. It's not going to stop anyone because it's pennies on the dollar. It's a non-issue.

And as far as this comment goes: Who determines what is a luxury for someone and what isn't? Why should anyone have the authority to tell me what is a luxury and what isn't? My cleaning lady could be considered a luxury but to me she's not because I hate cleaning. Our landscaper could be considered a luxury but for my husband it's not because he doesn't have the time to do all there is to do around the yard. My laptop could be considered a luxury but it's not because without it I can't work.

You see my point?

It's pretty simple...your laptop is not a luxury item because you need it for work. If it was your third computer that you use to watch Netflix in the bathroom, then I'd consider it a luxury item. Your cleaning lady and landscaper are luxuries because you just don't feel like cleaning or working in the yard. For me, I hate tying my shoes - it's boring and takes seconds out of my day. If I hired someone to do that for me, so that is a luxury and I'm at peace with calling it that. Whether or not we should be taxed for enjoying luxuries we've earned is an entirely different debate.

As far as nothing being free, that's absolutely true. Personally, I'd much rather pay higher taxes than insurance premiums if it means everyone can get the medical care they need -- not just those whose work pays for 70-90% of their insurance costs. Oh, and when the insurance company you've been paying those premiums to for years decides you deserve it when you finally have need of it.

:drinker:

However, if you are handicapped, someone to help you with house and yard care is not a luxury anymore. Though I certainly hope you never suffer any handicap that requires you to hire someone to tie your shoes for you!

And even if you're not handicapped, your desire/choice not to do a certain job creates a job for someone else. There are many things we all could do based on ability, however we decide that our time and skills are better spent on other tasks. I had a landscaper at our old house after years and years of my husband and I doing the yard work. Sure, we didn't technically need it, but the landscaper got money to feed his family and our family's health improved because we had 6 more hours of family time that used to be spent on the blasted yard, and much less stress.

BigT555

I really didn't ever say that every single day I save everyone's life. Not at all. There a plenty of days where I don't make one bit of a difference in anyone's life, none at all. But we and I have plenty of days where the sh! $ hits the fan and it becomes ridiculous. Just like plenty of other jobs in the world, the geographic area you are in plays some role. For me it's working in some of the most crime filled, lowest income, highest unemployment areas in NYC. Is doing my job here as opposed to let's say Greenwich, Connecticut more intense, more labor filled, higher paced, more stressful? Absolutely. There are days we finish our shift and feel physically and mentally abused beyond belief. So should our pay be higher than the first responders there? Yes. But that's not always the case. The point is, do I get paid what I'm worth? Absolutely not.

Just so you know. If I were to be unemployed tomorrow, I would get paid the same amount of money that I get paid now for doing my job. So does that give me a free pass to say "Oh no, it's not paying me more money than unemployment so I'd rather not work". I'm sorry, but I'm a work horse, a productive member of society. And accepting that the government will pay your way when someone is fully capable of going out there and working is absolutely pathetic in my opinion. That person gets absolutely no respect from me for choosing public assistance when they can work.

yeah fair enough.

and i 100% agree that for the most part unemployment and welfare are bullsh*t and completely flawed, as result you get hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions taking advantage of that system. there should be a stricter set of rules for who gets what in the case of unemployment, for example drug testing. but its unrealistic to expect that at this point, we'd end up spending too many tax dollars just to see who qualifies for such benefits

bunnylion

I didn't read the exchange you are talking about carefully, but that sounds like it's about the situation pre-Obamacare. We only just went to the situation where you are supposed to have insurance. But also health insurance is expensive and there are limits to the subsidies, so someone might not be willing to pay the subsidized price or, I suppose, someone who doesn't qualify for subsidies might choose not to buy it.

As for why, even apart from ability to pay, people may assume they will not need insurance (or do the cost benefit analysis and decide to risk it), so go without. And then they need the care due to stuff that happens--an accident or illness.

Ah, that explains it. I guess every system has it's flaws, especially in health care. I doubt that there is anything like a perfect health care system. In every model some motivated individual can find some way to take advantage while someone else might be at a disadvantage...

Here you are required to have health insurance and its quite hard to get around that (though not impossible). When you are unemployed the state covers you fees, when you are a student you pay around 70€/month, when you are employed you pay a fixed percentage of your salary. I know have to pay 300€/month which is quite a lot if you never get sick... but I won't complain about it because I know I can rely on it when I need it...

bunnylion

I really didn't ever say that every single day I save everyone's life. Not at all. There a plenty of days where I don't make one bit of a difference in anyone's life, none at all. But we and I have plenty of days where the sh! $ hits the fan and it becomes ridiculous. Just like plenty of other jobs in the world, the geographic area you are in plays some role. For me it's working in some of the most crime filled, lowest income, highest unemployment areas in NYC. Is doing my job here as opposed to let's say Greenwich, Connecticut more intense, more labor filled, higher paced, more stressful? Absolutely. There are days we finish our shift and feel physically and mentally abused beyond belief. So should our pay be higher than the first responders there? Yes. But that's not always the case. The point is, do I get paid what I'm worth? Absolutely not.

Just so you know. If I were to be unemployed tomorrow, I would get paid the same amount of money that I get paid now for doing my job. So does that give me a free pass to say "Oh no, it's not paying me more money than unemployment so I'd rather not work". I'm sorry, but I'm a work horse, a productive member of society. And accepting that the government will pay your way when someone is fully capable of going out there and working is absolutely pathetic in my opinion. That person gets absolutely no respect from me for choosing public assistance when they can work.

yeah fair enough.

and i 100% agree that for the most part unemployment and welfare are bullsh*t and completely flawed, as result you get hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions taking advantage of that system. there should be a stricter set of rules for who gets what in the case of unemployment, for example drug testing. but its unrealistic to expect that at this point, we'd end up spending too many tax dollars just to see who qualifies for such benefits

I agree with everything you just said.

Cheers.

I'm sorry, MrM27, that you don't get paid what you think you deserve. You choose to work while you have no financial benefit from it because it's your nature, you are a 'work horse' as you put it. A lot of people (unfortunately?) are not. You can be mad about people that abuse the system, but in the end you will have a hard time changing them. It's the system that needs to change... there still is a whole lot of room for improvement.
That being said, I'm eternally thankful for the financial aid that I have received myself - without it I couldn't have afforded to go to college.

rowlandsw

The nanny state just keeps growing and growing. We might as well have let the commies win the cold war. On a side note if it's the devil i guess i'm a satan worshiper now lol Bunnylion, i love your avatar. Sadly this nation is so divided at this point that short of another civil war nobody's going to ever agree on anything again.

MityMax96

interesting read:
http://jamesdelingpole.com/2014/08/britain-is-the-fattest-country-in-europe-heres-the-real-reason-why/

Britain’s “obesity epidemic” is mainly caused by the fact that its population are lazy slobs and not because they eat too much, a shock new study called The Fat Lie has found.

The only reason the study - produced by Christopher Snowdon of the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) – is shocking is because it contradicts one of the great received ideas of our politically correct times: that fatties are the hapless victims of the rapacious and bullying food and drink industry which pressures them into eating and drinking far too much fat and sugar.

What Snowdon’s research clearly shows that this claim is nonsense. Yes, it is indeed true that British people are getting porkier. Since 2002 the average body weight of English adults has increased by two kilograms, contributing to Britain’s unenviable status as the fattest country in Europe.

But what is rarely mentioned by health campaigners is that this rise in obesity over three decades has coincided with a steady fall in average sugar and fat consumption.

The study referenced:
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/708e119fa74cd33e6a28f949a/files/Briefing_The_Fat_Lie.pdf

Meerataila

People want to work and have nice things

Are you sure about that?

Can you say it with 100% certainty that people want to work and have nice things because I have known plenty of people who lost jobs and sat back collecting unemployment -- and kept getting it extended when it ran out -- because they made more collecting than they did if they got another job. There are plenty of people who are capable of getting a job but they choose to sit back and stay on welfare because it's easier to hold your hand out and get money than it is to get off your butt and get a job.

I suppose I should have said 'most people'. I defy you to make the argument that we'll have less people working hard for long hours at dirty and dangerous jobs if they're actually paid well for those jobs.

The reason many choose welfare (aside from the fact that outsourcing has made it so we don't have enough jobs) is because working doesn't lift many out of poverty at all, so why work if you aren't getting anywhere for it?

Let me ask you a question. I work in 911 here in NYC. I've had days, where in one day I responded to a guy stabbed 16 times who we didn't let die, a guy shot in the leg, a drunk who's friend hit him in the head with a beer bottle and cut hit artery and a young boy playing football who broke his tibula in half, how much doe you think my job is worth doing? I wake up at 430am to go to work. Snowing a foot, my office doesn't close, because my office is the street, people will still need us.

How much should I demand before I accept going to work?

One thing I can guarantee to is i don't make anywhere near what I'm worth. What I deserve, for the role I play. Have you ever know what it's like to actually have someone's life in your hands? Like really, live or die if you get flustered?

Meerata,

Bumping my question because I'd like to hear what you think.

You would be one of the richest people in America under Participatory Economics.

Your job is dangerous, dirty, and unpleasant. What stumps me (because I'm just learning about parecon and it's an evolving idea anyway) is how your work would be divided or whether it would be.

In Parecon, %80 of work is skilled work, %20 is grunt work, and everyone must do that mix of both. So if I were a professor %80 of the time (a low paying job under Parecon) %20 of the time I might be responsible for cleaning the university toilets (higher paying but not as high as your job, because it's not dangerous, just gross).

But you are already working a mix of dirty grunt work and skilled work, so why have you switch your roles? Although you could do %20 training of other people and/or %20 of time in classes getting even more skilled, I guess. That would make sense even though it's a reversal of the 80/20.

Edit: I realize I misread this. I claim sun blindness (I just came in from the pool). I thought you were an EMT/first responder. A dispatcher wouldn't be quite as well paid, but still, the hours sound like they suck and the job sounds more onerous than professor (I personally think stress is a killer and stressful jobs should pay quite well). Now the people you send out, they'd be making big bucks, due to the danger.

I'm sorry EXCUSE ME.....where did you get that I was a dispatcher? I am a first responder. In NYC don't run into fires because that's why we have the Fire Department. I'm not even sure where you even got the inclination that I was a dispatcher.

You have a heart attack, you cut your hand off, your mother is dying, you dial 911, I show up. You rely on me.

Now answer the question without all the mumbo jumbo. You said if people got paid what they felt they deserved they would be willing to work, so how much is my job worth in your opinion. What is the minimum I should hold out for before I go to work now. Not in a fantasy world. Today 2014.

First responder? Yep, you'd be one of the richest in society. I know how dangerous and unpleasant that work is, as does everyone with a lick of common sense.

Your opinion on the onerousness of your own work can't be the sole deciding factor, or every bean counter in every air conditioned office in the country would wail about how difficult and dirty her work is, of course. But as far as my understanding of Participatory Economics goes (and I'm still learning about it and it's evolving anyway) a hard working First Responder would be extremely well compensated, and should be.