Moderation DOES NOT WORK for me
Replies
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Thanks for sharing!
I rest my case. You're a sad little boy. Here's a flower:flowerforyou:
Did your mommy not give you enough love? Seriously. That you need to mock others' food choices is beyond sad.
Arguing about anyone's personal TASTE is rather silly if you ask me.Pizza crust is bread. Arguing that pizza crust adds nothing to "the palate" is like arguing there isn't a difference between tasty bread and crap bread.
And Thomas Keller loves (good) pizza. It makes a regular appearance at many of his restaurants.
If you enjoy cauliflower crust pizza then you're wasting your money at FL. Just saying.
Give those cats a hug for me, mmmmk?
Based on your respective counts, I think you both just like posting, regardless of the topic at hand.0 -
By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:
And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.
That's not pizza.
Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?
Well, I don't know about that. Where I live, the farm to table movement is pretty big and there are a lot of super tasty artisan pizzas, with whole wheat crusts and gluten free crusts options. I've never tried the cauliflower version before, but I might look into that. The crust is just a delivery vehicle for the sauce, cheese and toppings for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a stuffed deep dish can be delicious too (oooh, Zachary's...) but to say that artisan pizzas don't have there place in the pizza pantheon is just plain crazy.
If you think the crust is just a delivery vehicle then your palate is dead. Period.
Right. Because pizza crust is an important basis point for palate range. Next time I'm at French Laundry, I'll be sure to ask about their preferred pizza crust. Hahahaha.
You truly know nothing about food. But, hey, enjoy your brunch
When I mention the nasty bugs and bug excretions that find their way deliberately or accidentally into our processed foods I get a lot of people saying "So what? Cultures XY and Z all eat bugs and love them!"
So by that reasoning, if we'd all been raised on grasshopper pizza crust we'd all find it delicious and nothing less would do. Therefore, how can we ever separate what foods we've been conditioned to like from what has a 'good' taste and texture?
Gee, I dunno.
My parents were raised on scrapple, but as soon as they had foie gras, pork belly, sweet breads, etc, they decided that scrapple was for the birds.
I was raised on Pizza Hut, Mr. Gatti's, Pizza Inn (yuck, even then), CiCi's, to get back to the pizza analogy, yet now that I've been exposed to a broad range of pizza styles - which didn't happen until I was in my 30's - Napoletana pizza is the only one I think is good, though I'll make free with the toppings - I'm no stickler for tradition there.
And I have to concur with the others. Whole wheat flour just doesn't have the right chemical/physical composition to make a really good pizza crust. It shouldn't feel bad, though - neither do most white flours. They have to be just the right %protein and milled in a certain way to be right. And cauliflower? Aw, hell, no. That's not pizza crust. It doesn't even make bread status. And this is coming from someone who likes cauliflower.0 -
nm0
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I rest my case. You're a sad little boy. Here's a flower:flowerforyou:
Did your mommy not give you enough love? Seriously. That you need to mock others' food choices is beyond sad.
Arguing about anyone's personal TASTE is rather silly if you ask me.Pizza crust is bread. Arguing that pizza crust adds nothing to "the palate" is like arguing there isn't a difference between tasty bread and crap bread.
And Thomas Keller loves (good) pizza. It makes a regular appearance at many of his restaurants.
If you enjoy cauliflower crust pizza then you're wasting your money at FL. Just saying.
Give those cats a hug for me, mmmmk?
Based on your respective counts, I think you both just like posting, regardless of the topic at hand.
lol - hard to argue with you there0 -
Honest question. You've spent so many months to years constantly talking about food addiction. Only food addiction. In that time you've quit several times and come back to defend food addiction. In that time have you considered seeking help? It's pretty evident that you have come to accept that you are addicted to food and have it justify why you can't succeed in your weight loss goal. Have you considered trying to take some of the energy you put into defending and researching food addiction and apply it towards finding an actual way to have success?
Sure. My doctor even suggested it. I don't have money for those kinds of luxuries. So like most people, I keep trying again and again on my own.
My only real hope is that someday they will develop a safe and effective appetite suppressant. When I was on Redux it totally solved my problem. I lost 60 pounds in the 6 months I was on it, and then it was pulled from the market.
If you think your deal is food addiction, what's the luxury? Wouldn't OA be the answer?
Also, I again think you are talking about something other than addiction if you think it's appetite that's the issue.
I'm not trying to be critical of your analysis of your own issues--seriously, my problem is more that you applied them to the OP's post, which said nothing about addiction--but I really do think that there's a disconnect between the two concepts. But if you are so sure it's convenient packaged supermarket food that's the problem, why not avoid it and whatever your trigger foods are?
I push back against the "addiction" assertions because I get the impression that people like to invoke addiction so casually because there's this idea that being an addict means that you can't help it, bear no personal responsibility, and simply cannot change things. Now, if that's so, I think that's too bad, because I think that's far more shame than anyone should feel for the "only hurts yourself" foible of being overweight, which may well relate more to different priorities and there are far worse priorities to have. (But then part of why I got fat is it never bothered me as much as maybe it should have.) But as an alcoholic (sober), I don't at all think that the addiction excuse does led you off the hook. I bear complete responsibility for the years I drank to excess and all the stupid and bad things I did while drinking. And I bear responsibility for staying sober, too. I do think I got a particular genetic makeup that caused me to have a different reaction to alcohol than many or most do--although alcoholism is a strange mix of physical and psychological, of course--but none of that excuses anything.
Anyway, I think the idea that some might have different reactions than others to specific kinds of foods is a possible and interesting one, although I find the idea of a psychological addiction to food in general (related to binging disorders also) more compelling. (What I find absurd is the idea that sugar is like crack or meth, almost certainly to become physically addictive for all of us who dare to experiment with it.) But the problem with the general claim is that it's usually made about foods (like sugary sweets) that don't seem different in kind from others that don't invoke the same response from the same person (the usual "I'm addicted to gummi bears but not bananas or sugar from the jar" kind of thing). It just doesn't make sense.0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.0 -
Thanks for letting me know.
As I said earlier, I no longer debate the existence of junk food. I've learned that it is an exercise in futility.
If you're really interested in why it is considered unhealthy, ask your doctor. (Unless he, too, is considered a confused layperson.)
It's not really fair to ask me a question, which I answer, and then when I ask you one, you can't be bothered.
If you are going to make a statement, you should defend it, or don't bother making the statement.0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.0 -
Do you realize what "out of context" means?
Yes, but your question was quite specific in its context all by itself.[snip remarks saying no one stated there were substances comparable to cocaine in processed foods, along with some "study" trying to imply the exact opposite]
Nothing in the article suggests there were substances comparable to cocaine in processed foods. I suggest you read it again more slowly.0 -
Yes, I've read similar studies about alcohol. But I'm not claiming that addiction doesn't exist, although obviously even addicts can modify their behavior in some ways and of course can quit. I'm saying that it's crazy to claim that there is anything analogous between having a hard time limiting your consumption of a particular item to calorie-appropriate levels when (and because) it's something you find super tasty and being addicted to something. Alcoholics may well really enjoy the taste of certain kinds of alcohol, but the essence of alcoholism is not that you just really, really love the taste of G&Ts.
That's because alcohol is a chemical dependance.
But there are many addictions that do not involve chemical dependence. Let me be pedantic here and state that since all addictions involve brain chemistry, all addictions are technically about chemical dependance. But I'm talking about an external chemical that causes the body to re-adjust it's norms to accommodate it, and you suffer discomfort when the external chemical is withdrawn.
But there are many addictions that trigger the reward systems in the brain (and consequently release chemicals, like dopamine) which do not require an external chemical source to do it. Gambling, sex, pornography, checking facebook updates, and food are all such stimuli that can result in compulsive and/or addictive behaviors.
If you have a trigger food, be it naan, or eggs, or Oreos, that you cannot refrain from eating, then you've got an addiction/compulsion behavioral problem. It's no different than if you want to stop gambling and you can't help yourself.
Again, I direct you to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.
Hey, if you don't like a certain food then say it, but don't denigrate it and pretend to know what you're talking about, and then name drop to cover up for your obvious fumbling. You might as well call sushi rice a delivery vehicle for fish, and then start telling me all about Sukiyabashi. It's weird.0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.
Hey, if you don't like a certain food then say it, but don't denigrate it and pretend to know what you're talking about, and then name drop to cover up for your obvious fumbling. You might as well call sushi rice a delivery vehicle for fish, and then start telling me all about Sukiyabashi. It's weird.
That's how I view pizza crust. You feel differently. I'm not denigrating you, but you certainly have time and time again insulted and denigrated me. You're a complete hypocrite.
I feel the same way about rice in Thai curries -- sauce delivery vehicle. Or the same about most non-filled pastas. I'll substitute out for spaghetti squash because the pasta itself doesn't do much for me.
There isn't any objective truth. It's simply a matter of taste. Why don't you try not being such a jerk sometime?0 -
Is French Laundry a place where French people do your laundry?
Do I want that?
I agree, it's just that I haven't found those methods to work for me, personally.(...)
I agree with your post (including the parts I didn't quote) except that there are non restrictive (if that means cutting things out) ways of eating outside of logging that allow for moderation.
(...)
I can use eyeballing/mindful eating to maintain for awhile, but my intuition just gets fuzzier and fuzzier with time. I wind up back on the "eat all the servings of all the foods all the time" wagon within a month or two.
For me, it's like playing chicken blindfolded. YMMV.0 -
Start with wanting to lose weight and be healthy more than wanting to eat junk food. Until that happens, the "how" part doesn't matter. Focus on why.
Also, don't replace peanut butter with PB2 under the false notion that PB2 is "healthier." That doesn't even vaguely resemble an accurate statement. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with PB2 (except that it's had all the fat removed, which defeats the whole purpose of peanut butter). But it is most definitely NOT healthier than actual peanut butter. It just has a ton fewer calories because it is a ton less delicious.
This. If you're mindset is that you're constantly depriving yourself, you won't make headway. And honestly - what the other guy said about the addiction to chemicals and sugar in the junk food is absolutely true. You obviously started this journey on your own so you must have some motivation that drives you. You have to want whatever it is you're doing this for more than you want what is unhealthy for you. And I will say that honestly, most diet foods are INCREDIBLY unhealthy for you. Pick real food and find snacks and things you like that are healthier choices than what you're making now. For example, I LOVE fruit and cheese and a little bit of dark chocolate. At first it seemed like a small sacrifice giving up the chocolate cake for the fruit/cheese, etc. but now when I eat chocolate cake (that I haven't made) it makes me sick. The real question in here is.....what is it that you want? Trying to grit your teeth and "have self control" doesn't work. Your passion you struggle with right now is a love for food. Find something else you love more.0 -
I do not feel that everyone who posts anything must be prepared to enter some sort of debate.Thanks for letting me know.
As I said earlier, I no longer debate the existence of junk food. I've learned that it is an exercise in futility.
If you're really interested in why it is considered unhealthy, ask your doctor. (Unless he, too, is considered a confused layperson.)
It's not really fair to ask me a question, which I answer, and then when I ask you one, you can't be bothered.
If you are going to make a statement, you should defend it, or don't bother making the statement.
I've gone the route of debating the existence of junk food. Some people don't believe that what they eat makes a difference in their health. Others know it does, but refuse to admit it. Either way, I'd be banging my head against a wall.
Besides, converting you into believing that junk food can harm you does me no good. Can't help me any.
Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.
Now I'm done. No cried of unfairness, personal insults or studies that show the Oreo is really a health food will drag me into some prolonged argument of the existence of junk food.
Don't believe junk food exists? Okay by me.0 -
If you think your deal is food addiction, what's the luxury? Wouldn't OA be the answer?
It may be. I have just learned about OA yesterday and am now looking into it.I'm not trying to be critical of your analysis of your own issues--seriously, my problem is more that you applied them to the OP's post, which said nothing about addiction
Which is why, again, I very plainly prefaced my original comment that it was colored by my own experiences of the causes of the failings of moderation.
The OP was extremely light on details (as I said before) but when someone tells me "I can't moderate my food intake!" that is a clarion call to me. I know exactly what they are talking about.
You probably aren't sensitive to it because you can't seem to fathom what we are talking about.
But I hear the dog whistle loud and clear.But if you are so sure it's convenient packaged supermarket food that's the problem, why not avoid it and whatever your trigger foods are?
That's what I try to do.I push back against the "addiction" assertions because I get the impression that people like to invoke addiction so casually because there's this idea that being an addict means that you can't help it, bear no personal responsibility, and simply cannot change things
And in fact, the evidence suggests that that is exactly the situation we are in. Whatever you want to call it, the fact is, most people can't lose weight long term through behavioral modification. Depending on whose study you look at, the failure rates are like 85% to like 95%.
Couple this with the fact that today a majority of Americans are overweight, and you should be scratching your head a bit.
What happened in the last 100 years? Have people changed? Or did something else change?Now, if that's so, I think that's too bad, because I think that's far more shame than anyone should feel for the "only hurts yourself" foible of being overweight, which may well relate more to different priorities and there are far worse priorities to have. (But then part of why I got fat is it never bothered me as much as maybe it should have.) But as an alcoholic (sober), I don't at all think that the addiction excuse does led you off the hook. I bear complete responsibility for the years I drank to excess and all the stupid and bad things I did while drinking. And I bear responsibility for staying sober, too. I do think I got a particular genetic makeup that caused me to have a different reaction to alcohol than many or most do--although alcoholism is a strange mix of physical and psychological, of course--but none of that excuses anything.
I do not dispute responsibility at all. Nobody puts anything in your mouth but you. But I do think the motivations that drive people to put certain things in their mouth are important to acknowledge and understand.Anyway, I think the idea that some might have different reactions than others to specific kinds of foods is a possible and interesting one, although I find the idea of a psychological addiction to food in general (related to binging disorders also) more compelling.
I would encourage you to watch the entirety of this lecture by Dr. Rudy Liebel from Columbia University Medical Center if you have an hour to spare:
http://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?live=2993&bhcp=20
But for your immediate point, skip to 49:40.
Notice the bullet point "Less palatable foods"
In the end, it's all about craving pleasure from food. But all foods are not equally pleasurable to consume. Ice cream is going to be far more pleasurable to consume than brussels sprouts. Hawaiian rolls (which are very sweet) are a lot more pleasurable to eat than, say, pumpernickel, which I find very bitter.
If this is an addiction concerning the reward centers of the brain, clearly only foods which are rewarding (tasty) are going to trigger it. Food that tastes like sh|t won't. So you aren't likely to see addictive/compulsive behavior for all foods, just highly palatable ones.(What I find absurd is the idea that sugar is like crack or meth, almost certainly to become physically addictive for all of us who dare to experiment with it.)
I agree 100%. This is not a chemical addiction like crack or meth or alcohol or nicotine. This is a behavioral addiction like gambling, sex, exercise, email checking, etc.But the problem with the general claim is that it's usually made about foods (like sugary sweets) that don't seem different in kind from others that don't invoke the same response from the same person (the usual "I'm addicted to gummi bears but not bananas or sugar from the jar" kind of thing). It just doesn't make sense.
It only makes sense if you examine the compulsion from the perspective of what gives irresistible pleasure. For some people gummi bears might give it but bananas or a spoonful of sugar may not.0 -
I think this really settles all arguments on the subject.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/fda-recommends-at-least-3-servings-of-foods-with-w,36699/
FDA Recommends At Least 3 Servings Of Foods With Word ‘Fruit’ On Box
NEWS IN BRIEF • Food • Health • Government • News • ISSUE 50•32 • Aug 15, 2014
SILVER SPRING, MD—In an effort to get Americans to at least go through the motions of a healthier diet, the Food and Drug Administration announced Wednesday that it is now recommending individuals consume three servings of foods every day that simply include the word “fruit” on the box.
“Though we have in the past advised eating a minimum of three pieces of actual fruit per day, it is now acceptable to eat any food labeled with the word ‘fruit,’ including variations such as ‘fruity,’ ‘fruit-a-licious,’ or ‘fruit-blasted,’”
FDA commissioner Margaret Hamburg told reporters, also noting that sweetened cereal or gummies shaped like fruit are entirely permissible under the agency’s new guidelines. “If it smells somewhat like fruit, or even if there’s a cartoon strawberry or orange on the wrapper, that’s sufficient at this point.”
The FDA’s new recommendations are expected to be followed up by other guidelines under which anything successfully chewed and swallowed can now be considered a vegetable.0 -
The posts saying "that isn't pizza", "that isn't ice cream", "that isn't peanut butter", etc. do always sound judgmental and self-righteous. Maybe that's the goal.0
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But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Nothing like taking a nice 48 hour risen hand stretched skin, a little fresh ground garlic and basil in the dough, covered with the toppings you like, but that crust.
Those little heel ends that so few seem to like? Man, drizzle a little honey on that, and you know what? Even Tom Keller will stfu and eat the hell out of it.
Oh, and a relevant amusement:
http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/5607-a-four-year-old-reviews-the-french-laundry
pfft, french laundry.0 -
I do not feel that everyone who posts anything must be prepared to enter some sort of debate.
I've gone the route of debating the existence of junk food. Some people don't believe that what they eat makes a difference in their health. Others know it does, but refuse to admit it. Either way, I'd be banging my head against a wall.
Besides, converting you into believing that junk food can harm you does me no good. Can't help me any.
Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.
Now I'm done. No cried of unfairness, personal insults or studies that show the Oreo is really a health food will drag me into some prolonged argument of the existence of junk food.
Don't believe junk food exists? Okay by me.
Then you need to stop challenging people about things like "lard" without being able to provide any specifics about what is bad about it.
Especially when the food under discussion doesn't even contain it.
There is nothing known to be toxic in an Oreo cookie.Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.
The myth of eating saturated fats causing high cholesterol has been debunked for a while now:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html
"Overall, the literature does not offer much support for the idea that long term saturated fat intake has a significant effect on the concentration of blood cholesterol in humans. If it's a factor at all, it must be rather weak."
If you are going to talk about "junk food", then you need to explain precisely what is bad about the food. Generally, the most damning thing you can say about "junk food", (and this is what makes it junk), is that it is low in essential nutrients, and usually high in calories.
But other than that, there's generally not anything toxic about it as a food.0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Nothing like taking a nice 48 hour risen hand stretched skin, a little fresh ground garlic and basil in the dough, covered with the toppings you like, but that crust.
Those little heel ends that so few seem to like? Man, drizzle a little honey on that, and you know what? Even Tom Keller will stfu and eat the hell out of it.
Oh, and a relevant amusement:
http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/5607-a-four-year-old-reviews-the-french-laundry
pfft, french laundry.
"It tastes like a tinker bell popsicle." - So much win right there.0 -
I don't have to do or not do anything and you are most welcome to ignore all of my posts.I do not feel that everyone who posts anything must be prepared to enter some sort of debate.
I've gone the route of debating the existence of junk food. Some people don't believe that what they eat makes a difference in their health. Others know it does, but refuse to admit it. Either way, I'd be banging my head against a wall.
Besides, converting you into believing that junk food can harm you does me no good. Can't help me any.
Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.
Now I'm done. No cried of unfairness, personal insults or studies that show the Oreo is really a health food will drag me into some prolonged argument of the existence of junk food.
Don't believe junk food exists? Okay by me.
Then you need to stop challenging people about things like "lard" without being able to provide any specifics about what is bad about it.
Especially when the food under discussion doesn't even contain it.
There is nothing known to be toxic in an Oreo cookie.Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.
The myth of eating saturated fats causing high cholesterol has been debunked for a while now:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html
"Overall, the literature does not offer much support for the idea that long term saturated fat intake has a significant effect on the concentration of blood cholesterol in humans. If it's a factor at all, it must be rather weak."
If you are going to talk about "junk food", then you need to explain precisely what is bad about the food. Generally, the most damning thing you can say about "junk food", (and this is what makes it junk), is that it is low in essential nutrients, and usually high in calories.
But other than that, there's generally not anything toxic about it as a food.
I couldn't care less what food you eat. If it makes you happy, that's what matters.
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I feel like doing some white knighting, so I'll say this in defense of the "moderation doesn't work" peeps:
Whereas guided moderation has worked great for me, I've noticed time and again that moderation doesn't seem to work (except very short term) in the absence of some objective way to measure both how much I've eaten and how much I should be eating.
It's all nice and good to say moderation works while we have at our disposal a tool that makes it easy, but if I didn't have access to some sort of way to log what I eat (or if I didn't want to do so), restrictive dieting would be the only way I could keep my weight stable.
In a very real sense, it's less a matter of "one method is better than the other" than one of "we have two methods, each with their advantages and disadvantages".
You can definitely lose weight outside of calorie counting, but my assumption is that anyone posting a question here has chosen to calorie count using the MFP tool.
Edit: I missed one part of your post in parentheses. If they don't want to count calories, I usually tend to stay away from the topic except for mild enlightenment / entertainment. We'd simply not be using the same path to weight loss at that point and I couldn't contribute much if anything to their selected strategy0 -
I feel like doing some white knighting, so I'll say this in defense of the "moderation doesn't work" peeps:
Whereas guided moderation has worked great for me, I've noticed time and again that moderation doesn't seem to work (except very short term) in the absence of some objective way to measure both how much I've eaten and how much I should be eating.
It's all nice and good to say moderation works while we have at our disposal a tool that makes it easy, but if I didn't have access to some sort of way to log what I eat (or if I didn't want to do so), restrictive dieting would be the only way I could keep my weight stable.
In a very real sense, it's less a matter of "one method is better than the other" than one of "we have two methods, each with their advantages and disadvantages".
You can definitely lose weight outside of calorie counting, but my assumption is that anyone posting a question here has chosen to calorie count using the MFP tool.
Edit: I missed one part of your post in parentheses. If they don't want to count calories, I usually tend to stay away from the topic except for mild enlightenment / entertainment. We'd simply not be using the same path to weight loss at that point and I couldn't contribute much if anything to their selected strategy
For 1800+ posts and you haven't figured out that not everyone on MFP counts calories, let alone with the MFP tool. You must not be paying that close attention...0 -
I used to be just like this so I understand the pain and trouble you're going through and what I have to say might not be quite what you want to hear but it all changed for me when I hit my "rock bottom."
I had seen a picture of myself and thought "surely there's no way that can be me? I can't be that heavy!?!" The next night I went out to dinner with friends and I slipped into habit and got a sandwich and fries because I LOOOOOOVE french fries and as I was eating them I started to get full and I looked at the plate and thought, "there's no reason I need to continue eating this...I'm full so I need to stop." I then looked at the plate a couple times, contemplated "just one more fry!" but eventually I poured a little water onto my plate and the fries got all mushy and gross and I couldn't eat them anymore.
If you aren't CONSCIOUSLY thinking the entire time you're eating you will accidentally slip up but you have to honestly ask yourself if it's worth it when you're about to eat it. If you're going to regret eating it after you're finished then you are the only person that can convince yourself not to eat it. Maybe you haven't hit your rock bottom yet but once you do you still have to make that concerted effort to NOT eat what you don't need!
Best of luck!!!0 -
But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.
Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.
I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.
I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.
Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.
Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.
Hey, if you don't like a certain food then say it, but don't denigrate it and pretend to know what you're talking about, and then name drop to cover up for your obvious fumbling. You might as well call sushi rice a delivery vehicle for fish, and then start telling me all about Sukiyabashi. It's weird.
That's how I view pizza crust. You feel differently. I'm not denigrating you, but you certainly have time and time again insulted and denigrated me. You're a complete hypocrite.
I feel the same way about rice in Thai curries -- sauce delivery vehicle. Or the same about most non-filled pastas. I'll substitute out for spaghetti squash because the pasta itself doesn't do much for me.
There isn't any objective truth. It's simply a matter of taste. Why don't you try not being such a jerk sometime?
Please call me a few more names and then complain how mean I am again. Oh, and have fun with your fake food and make sure to tell your good buddy, Chef Keller, all about it.0 -
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I would quite literally hump a popsicle that tasted like fairies.
Nothing like taking a nice 48 hour risen hand stretched skin, a little fresh ground garlic and basil in the dough, covered with the toppings you like, but that crust.
Those little heel ends that so few seem to like? Man, drizzle a little honey on that, and you know what? Even Tom Keller will stfu and eat the hell out of it.
Oh, and a relevant amusement:
http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/5607-a-four-year-old-reviews-the-french-laundry
pfft, french laundry.
"It tastes like a tinker bell popsicle." - So much win right there.
That's not weird.0 -
That's how I view pizza crust. You feel differently. I'm not denigrating you, but you certainly have time and time again insulted and denigrated me. You're a complete hypocrite.
I feel the same way about rice in Thai curries -- sauce delivery vehicle. Or the same about most non-filled pastas. I'll substitute out for spaghetti squash because the pasta itself doesn't do much for me.
There isn't any objective truth. It's simply a matter of taste. Why don't you try not being such a jerk sometime?
Please call me a few more names and then complain how mean I am again. Oh, and have fun with your fake food and make sure to tell your good buddy, Chef Keller, all about it.
You're a real gem, SunofaBeach. An awesome human being. Go on with your bad self.0 -
All the back and forth about pizza is hilarious and sad. I suspect so many people wouldn't know good pizza if it hit them in the face.
Yours truly,
The pizza snob
I hear Alice Waters makes a wonderful cauliflower pizza with ingredients sourced no more than 50 feet from her.0
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