Sorry I'm Not Sorry - I gotta rant!
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I agree micros are vital to health, they just aren't vital to fat loss.
while the bolded may be true(I haven't researched it) it still comes down to consuming more cals than you use to gain Weight. I fact if you are in a deficit and your body does somehow store, it will still have to metabolize the equivalent plus your deficit to function.I agree with the original poster. Bravo!
For example, recent research has shown that artificial sweeteners, while technically counting as zero calories, may cause spikes in blood sugar and lead to obesity, diabetes, and so forth. In this case, the math is not as simple as calories in/calories out and macros.
While I am not a clean eater or a champion of Paleo, there is much to be said in the research for a sensible diet primarily based on vegetables, lean protein, ,low-glycemic carbs, and some fruits.
I also say, in advance, that I am not sorry if anyone finds this "offensive" and engages in another ad infinitum, ad nauseam round of faux outrage,
I do not come here to instagram rainbows and puppies but to speak the frank truth.
Warm regards,
-G.e.C
Fair enough, I think the research might be inconclusive on the point you raised as well as somewhat relative to the individual (e.g. diabetics/glucose-intolerats).
However, if you are not eating vegetables and fruits there's a good chance your body lacks sufficient micro-nutrients for optimal function. I think that gets lost in the "eat what you want" camp. It is not just pounds on the scale.
Health is not a mirror selfie,
-G.e.C
And the IIFYM camp really does advocate getting your micros as well. The thing is you don't get bonus points for more micros, in fact some are dangerous to over consume. Once you have satisfied your micro requirements there is no problem indulging in those "empty cals"!
Sounds reasonable. But I think the OP was also reasonable to suggest to another dieter that, if one wasn't losing weight primarily with a diet high on processed foods, that they incorporate more vegetables, lean protein, etc.
There's also a well-documented effect of sugar consumption making one simply crave more sugar (empty cals). In this case, if they can stay under their TDEE while consuming so much sugar they may very well lose some weight, but it is simply difficult for some individuals to come in under TDEE with high consumption of sugar because it doesn't satiate.
Note well: "Some individuals." I'm not a pizza Nazi and have stayed under TDEE while eating 1,200+ cals of pizza and cake in a day, but those were usually days in which the exercise load was high, and my attempts at weight loss are not hindered by any medical conditions0 -
Guess I'm a Chinese Cheeseburger since I eat those things on a regular basis.
ohhhh you eat chinese and cheeseburgers. i thought there was some new food out there and i knew nothing about it
I bet if we try hard enough we can make this a thing
have you heard of the ramen/saimin burger? I'm planning on making it in the near future. (probably on a weekend after I've been good and have some cals saved :devil:)
Edited for typo0 -
Skullshank is pretty helpful and I read his post twice. Nothing condescending or bullying about it at all. You say that the thickness of your skin is fine but it isn't.
I really suggest bookmarking all the links and maybe take a breather. Come back and read them and realize he really was just trying to help you.
You seem to really want a response, so here it is. I don't need your help, nor do I need help from "skullshank". I have lost 12 pounds in the last 25 days. I did not come here looking for guidance. I simply replied that I agree that making healthier choices when it comes to food could indeed assist in one's weight loss journey. I don't understand where the thickness of my skin comes into play here, but I assure you I am not over here crying because of some dude on an online forum. I am just not going to say YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT SIR! EATING A BALANCED DIET IS COMPLETELY INSANE AND I WILL STOP DOING THAT IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE I AM WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT.
If you read the links, you'd see that they promote a balanced diet but...okay then. Maybe you might need to take a step back.
Coming from the person who has posted like 5 times looking for a response from me?
Ummm..I responded to posts. It's your choice to respond to them or not and how you decide to take it.0 -
I agree. I also thought he was pretty nice since you said you were struggling and argued that calories in vs calories out did not work for you. It all comes down to energy expenditure. Science. Whatever direction you choose to go or, if you continue doing what you're doing, I hope it works out for the best for you.
[/quote]
I'm not struggling. I am doing quite well, thank you.0 -
Thanks for this, great article.
Thanks from me too. The best line from the article:
“Those who have an “unhealthy obsession” with otherwise healthy eating may be suffering from “orthorexia nervosa,” a term which literally means “fixation on righteous eating.”0 -
Guess I'm a Chinese Cheeseburger since I eat those things on a regular basis.
ohhhh you eat chinese and cheeseburgers. i thought there was some new food out there and i knew nothing about it
I bet if we try hard enough we can make this a thing
have you heard of the ramen/saimin burger? I'm planning on making it in the near future. (probably on a weekend after I've been good and have some cals saved :devil:)
Edited for typo
Looks like a poop burger with brain buns.0 -
Guess I'm a Chinese Cheeseburger since I eat those things on a regular basis.
ohhhh you eat chinese and cheeseburgers. i thought there was some new food out there and i knew nothing about it
I bet if we try hard enough we can make this a thing
have you heard of the ramen/saimen burger? I'm planning on making it in the near future. (probably on a weekend after I've been good and have some cals saved :devil:)
ew
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but you ask any single expert, or even just a health conscious person out there and they will say the exact thing I've just said. No one can dispute this.
http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-the-experts-round-table-discussions/15-nutrition-myths-you-want-to-knowallow-the-experts-to-tell/
Eric Helms...he knows a bit about fat loss and nutrition....Eric Helms-
The Myth of “Good” and “Bad” Foods
I think one of the most pervasive, and possibly detrimental mind sets is that of seeing foods as either “good” or “bad”. This is a rather seductive way of looking at foods because it is simplistic. Look at a food, identify it as friend or foe, and then go with the “good” option not the “bad” option and you’ll be healthy, fit, lean and sexy! It’s that easy! But of course, that’s not the case.
One of the problems with this mindset is that it fits perfectly into the behavioral paradigm that leads to obesity in the first place; the all or nothing mindset. One thing I find to be a commonality among folks who struggle with weight gain and permanent weight loss, is that they lose the middle ground. They bounce between being “on the diet” and falling off the band wagon and lapsing into cycles of overeating. We have no problem losing weight, we have trouble keeping the weight off. We crash diet and lose 20-30lbs in a few months, and then it all comes back on when we can’t maintain the crash diet approach.
All or nothing Black and white mindsets ignore the concepts of magnitude and frequency which are all important when it comes to long term change. Of course 1g of sugar eaten every 2 weeks will not have the same effect as 100g of sugar eaten daily, but we love to label sugar as “bad”. Even water consumed in massive excess can lead to hyponatremia and death. Sugar is not good or bad, and neither is water, they just are what they are and without attention to magnitude or frequency, labels like “good” or “bad” are misleading.
We tend to be overly reductionist in our approach to nutrition. Originally, we believed fat was the singular cause of the obesity epidemic. When the low fat craze had no impact on preventing the worsening of the obesity epidemic, we went the way of the low carb craze, and folks started consuming fat with abandon. When this didn’t turn the trend of waist expansion around, we decided that it’s not just fat or carbs, the causes are specific types of carbs and fat; specifically sugar, high fructose corn syrup and trans fat are the culprits!
The need to blame singular nutrients highlights the all or nothing, black or white attitude that is in and of itself one of the roots of unhealthy eating behavior and consequently obesity. Again, it comes down to seeking balance. The concept of balance in nutrition is inclusive of the concepts of magnitude and frequency that are needed for long term lifestyle change. Balance recognizes that it is not the small piece of chocolate that you had that wasn’t on your diet plan that was the problem, it was the carton of ice cream you had afterward!
The meal plan foods are “good”, and a piece of chocolate is “bad” and once you’d crossed over from “good” to “bad”, you said: “Screw it! I already blew it, I might as well just have cookie dough ice cream until I puke!” That is the all too common result of the all or nothing mindset in action. On the other hand, a balanced approach realizes that a small piece of chocolate is only ~100 calories, and will make a minuscule difference in terms of weight loss over time. In fact, a balanced meal plan might even allow for a daily range of calories, so that the following day could be reduced by 100 calories. Even more shockingly, a balanced meal plan might even include a piece of chocolate (blasphemy I know)!
There are truly VERY few foods that are actively bad for you. Most of the foods that we identify as “bad”, are simply low or devoid of micro-nutrients, minerals, fiber and other things like phytochemicals and protein that can be beneficial for you. These foods only become a problem when they occur frequently and with enough magnitude (frequency and magnitude!) to replace a significant enough portion of your diet that you become deficient in beneficial nutrients.
Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! It’s not as though we have a health food critic living in our esophagus that has a control box that he switches from “get leaner and healthier” to “get fatter and unhealthier” every time he spots “good” or “bad” food. Thus, a healthy diet should be inclusionary vs. exclusionary; focused around including healthy foods, not excluding “unhealthy” foods. Meet your nutrient needs, and feel free to eat things that you may have traditionally seen as “bad” in moderation; so that you are still meeting your allotted caloric intake for your weight loss goals. Don’t make the mistake of looking at foods as “good” or “bad!” Good diets can include “bad” foods and bad diets can include “good” foods. Don’t get too caught up with what you have for lunch, because it is not a singular choice that will determine the success of your health and fitness goals, it is the balanced lifestyle you commit to long term!
Not necessarily disagreeing with the suggestion to eat more fruits and veggies, or to limit processed foods. But that is a long way from where the OP ended up at the end of the rant.0 -
but you ask any single expert, or even just a health conscious person out there and they will say the exact thing I've just said. No one can dispute this.
http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-the-experts-round-table-discussions/15-nutrition-myths-you-want-to-knowallow-the-experts-to-tell/
Eric Helms...he knows a bit about fat loss and nutrition....Eric Helms-
The Myth of “Good” and “Bad” Foods
I think one of the most pervasive, and possibly detrimental mind sets is that of seeing foods as either “good” or “bad”. This is a rather seductive way of looking at foods because it is simplistic. Look at a food, identify it as friend or foe, and then go with the “good” option not the “bad” option and you’ll be healthy, fit, lean and sexy! It’s that easy! But of course, that’s not the case.
One of the problems with this mindset is that it fits perfectly into the behavioral paradigm that leads to obesity in the first place; the all or nothing mindset. One thing I find to be a commonality among folks who struggle with weight gain and permanent weight loss, is that they lose the middle ground. They bounce between being “on the diet” and falling off the band wagon and lapsing into cycles of overeating. We have no problem losing weight, we have trouble keeping the weight off. We crash diet and lose 20-30lbs in a few months, and then it all comes back on when we can’t maintain the crash diet approach.
All or nothing Black and white mindsets ignore the concepts of magnitude and frequency which are all important when it comes to long term change. Of course 1g of sugar eaten every 2 weeks will not have the same effect as 100g of sugar eaten daily, but we love to label sugar as “bad”. Even water consumed in massive excess can lead to hyponatremia and death. Sugar is not good or bad, and neither is water, they just are what they are and without attention to magnitude or frequency, labels like “good” or “bad” are misleading.
We tend to be overly reductionist in our approach to nutrition. Originally, we believed fat was the singular cause of the obesity epidemic. When the low fat craze had no impact on preventing the worsening of the obesity epidemic, we went the way of the low carb craze, and folks started consuming fat with abandon. When this didn’t turn the trend of waist expansion around, we decided that it’s not just fat or carbs, the causes are specific types of carbs and fat; specifically sugar, high fructose corn syrup and trans fat are the culprits!
The need to blame singular nutrients highlights the all or nothing, black or white attitude that is in and of itself one of the roots of unhealthy eating behavior and consequently obesity. Again, it comes down to seeking balance. The concept of balance in nutrition is inclusive of the concepts of magnitude and frequency that are needed for long term lifestyle change. Balance recognizes that it is not the small piece of chocolate that you had that wasn’t on your diet plan that was the problem, it was the carton of ice cream you had afterward!
The meal plan foods are “good”, and a piece of chocolate is “bad” and once you’d crossed over from “good” to “bad”, you said: “Screw it! I already blew it, I might as well just have cookie dough ice cream until I puke!” That is the all too common result of the all or nothing mindset in action. On the other hand, a balanced approach realizes that a small piece of chocolate is only ~100 calories, and will make a minuscule difference in terms of weight loss over time. In fact, a balanced meal plan might even allow for a daily range of calories, so that the following day could be reduced by 100 calories. Even more shockingly, a balanced meal plan might even include a piece of chocolate (blasphemy I know)!
There are truly VERY few foods that are actively bad for you. Most of the foods that we identify as “bad”, are simply low or devoid of micro-nutrients, minerals, fiber and other things like phytochemicals and protein that can be beneficial for you. These foods only become a problem when they occur frequently and with enough magnitude (frequency and magnitude!) to replace a significant enough portion of your diet that you become deficient in beneficial nutrients.
Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! It’s not as though we have a health food critic living in our esophagus that has a control box that he switches from “get leaner and healthier” to “get fatter and unhealthier” every time he spots “good” or “bad” food. Thus, a healthy diet should be inclusionary vs. exclusionary; focused around including healthy foods, not excluding “unhealthy” foods. Meet your nutrient needs, and feel free to eat things that you may have traditionally seen as “bad” in moderation; so that you are still meeting your allotted caloric intake for your weight loss goals. Don’t make the mistake of looking at foods as “good” or “bad!” Good diets can include “bad” foods and bad diets can include “good” foods. Don’t get too caught up with what you have for lunch, because it is not a singular choice that will determine the success of your health and fitness goals, it is the balanced lifestyle you commit to long term!
Not necessarily disagreeing with the suggestion to eat more fruits and veggies, or to limit processed foods. But that is a long way from where the OP ended up at the end of the rant.
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For weight loss, it's always going to come down to calories in verse calories out.
eating healthy is a different topic.
You said that you replied to a thread where the OP was complaining of not losing weight, so the answer To that usually comes back to calories in verse calories out. did that OP ask about opinions on eating healthy?
Good one!0 -
Thanks for this, great article.
Thanks from me too. The best line from the article:
“Those who have an “unhealthy obsession” with otherwise healthy eating may be suffering from “orthorexia nervosa,” a term which literally means “fixation on righteous eating.”
It's a term invented by a blogger and has nothing medical about it.
It's got humor value but this isn't really something one 'suffers' from.
(well, no more than a lodged rear entrance umbrella)
I may have used the term in past.0 -
Not all calories are created equal! people need to realize they are what they eat... and we should also count chemicals! not just calories!
I dont mean to sound harsh to the sensitive type people out there. Yes people need to start somewhere. Baby steps, slowly but surely making simple changes to their diets and taking some interest in education as to what it is they are eating will greatly help them in the journey to awesome health.
Just my 2 cents....
Given that the entire world is made up of chemicals.. which ones are we supposed to be counting??0 -
If you weigh 300+ pounds, your #1 priority is to lose weight. Period. That weight will kill you faster than bad nutrition. For someone who is morbidly obese, it's better to lose 100 pounds eating fast food than to lose 10 pounds eating healthy. Any doctor will tell you that. The weight is the #1 priority. If you're 200 pounds or less, I can see your argument. But for morbidly obese people? Your weight is killing you, not your food pyramid intake. Fix that first. What's truly dangerous is telling someone that needs to lose 100+ pounds that their weight loss doesn't "count" because it's not "healthy."0
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The controversy isn't that whole foods aren't a great thing, and can help in adhering to a restricted cal diet. The controversy is from people stating that even if in a cal deficit they can't lose on "processed junk".
I agree micros are vital to health, they just aren't vital to fat loss.
while the bolded may be true(I haven't researched it) it still comes down to consuming more cals than you use to gain Weight. I fact if you are in a deficit and your body does somehow store, it will still have to metabolize the equivalent plus your deficit to function.I agree with the original poster. Bravo!
For example, recent research has shown that artificial sweeteners, while technically counting as zero calories, may cause spikes in blood sugar and lead to obesity, diabetes, and so forth. In this case, the math is not as simple as calories in/calories out and macros.
While I am not a clean eater or a champion of Paleo, there is much to be said in the research for a sensible diet primarily based on vegetables, lean protein, ,low-glycemic carbs, and some fruits.
I also say, in advance, that I am not sorry if anyone finds this "offensive" and engages in another ad infinitum, ad nauseam round of faux outrage,
I do not come here to instagram rainbows and puppies but to speak the frank truth.
Warm regards,
-G.e.C
Fair enough, I think the research might be inconclusive on the point you raised as well as somewhat relative to the individual (e.g. diabetics/glucose-intolerats).
However, if you are not eating vegetables and fruits there's a good chance your body lacks sufficient micro-nutrients for optimal function. I think that gets lost in the "eat what you want" camp. It is not just pounds on the scale.
Health is not a mirror selfie,
-G.e.C
And the IIFYM camp really does advocate getting your micros as well. The thing is you don't get bonus points for more micros, in fact some are dangerous to over consume. Once you have satisfied your micro requirements there is no problem indulging in those "empty cals"!
Sounds reasonable. But I think the OP was also reasonable to suggest to another dieter that, if one wasn't losing weight primarily with a diet high on processed foods, that they incorporate more vegetables, lean protein, etc.
There's also a well-documented effect of sugar consumption making one simply crave more sugar (empty cals). In this case, if they can stay under their TDEE while consuming so much sugar they may very well lose some weight, but it is simply difficult for some individuals to come in under TDEE because sugar doesn't satiate.
Note well: "Some individuals." I'm not a pizza Nazi and have stayed under TDEE while eating 800 cals of pizza and cake in a single day, but those were usually days in which the exercise load was high, and my attempts at weight loss are not hindered by any medical conditions
Don't understand why this has provoked so much controversy.
It may be more difficult to sustain a deficit on those foods, but if you are in a deficit you will lose!
Saying processed foods have a tendency to make people hungry, or crave more is fine, as long as you admit the reason for no loss, or even gain, is because they couldn't keep the cal deficit, not the processed food itself!0 -
I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here because, HEY, why not. It will give me something to read when I get back from the gym later.
I'm freaked out by all the chemicals and hormones in our food nowadays. Not in a tin-hatty kind of way, but in a very broad, very general, we eat all this chemical nonsense and we also have all these new diseases, kids these days have loads of allergies, no one knows where the high rates of autism are coming from, etc. I don't KNOW s*hit about what causes anything, and I don't claim to. But our environment is contaminated and I think a lot of our food is too. We use a lot of things in food now that haven't been around long enough to determine if they have adverse health affects. It doesn't make me wildly comfortable.
For that and other reasons I am trying to eat "cleaner." To me that means more fresh fruits and veg, and meat that isn't fed a lot of crap. Luckily, I can afford to that. Also, I tend to feel better and have more energy, have an easier time meeting macros and micros, and have an easier time losing weight.
But I'm also human. I would go insane eating like that all the time. I'm going to get take out maybe once a week. Usually greek or indian yummmmmm. I will buy myself a cupcake once a month. Every few months I cave and have a diet coke. I will eat a burger now and then. Most people are like me, and would go crazy if they had to focus on eating perfectly clean all the time, regardless of what clean meant to them. Restricting yourself to any diet entirely is really really hard and can lead to "unclean" binges.
The way you feed yourself and your family is personal, maybe as personal as religion or lifestyle. For me personally, if I get sick one day, I don't want to look back and wonder if healthier habits could have helped me. Instead, I want to work on my mental and physical health now while I'm young, which to me includes a moderated effort to eat as unprocessed and "clean" as I can, while acknowledging that exceptions are necessary to my mental well being.
OP, you can't force anyone to do anything, especially if you act like your way is the only way.
Do you use air freshener in your house?
Or carpet or wood or plastic?
drive a car?
use a microwave?
cell phone?
contrails?
Not that it matters, but no carpet (the chemicals of newly installed carpet give me a headache, actually a pretty common thing). I don't have a problem with 200 year old hardwood floors. No, I don't drive, I live in the city. I avoid microwaving my food but of course use it sometimes. The cell phone thing freaks me out too, but is necessary for work. I have no idea what the last word even means.
Nowhere in my post did I say that eating how I choose to eat will save the world or totally eliminate toxic things from my life. Nowhere. I very reasonably said it is one step towards a healthy lifestyle, something that is not refuted merely because other unhealthy things exist. Guess what? I can't control them all, but I can control what I put in my body. So why not put in the things that make me feel good and keep me healthy? You'll probably respond "because pop tarts are delicious" or something. Pop tarts are not my thing, I think they're gross. But when I was at work at the jail for ten hours and it was the most filling thing in the vending machine? Sure, I ate a pop tart. This is my point, of course there will be exceptions or I will eat things that are tasty but unhealthy once in a while. But I will still eat healthy to try and be healthier, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.0 -
I think it is relevant on a health site to try to find common ground. Don't you? Debating a definition clearly means that not everyone is on the same page yet.
Nope, because what one person feels is healthy for them is not for someone else. Please, go have a stroll into a gluten free thread, or a low/no carb thread... then there's stuff like being vegan, vegetarian, pescitarian... so many different ways people can eat and no one will EVER be on the same page.
I don't eat McDonald's, nor do I consume things like splenda or sweet and low. I don't like them, end of story. If someone else wants to consume that stuff then that's fine. I do on occasion have Wendy's, Papa Murphy's, Little Caesars, Buffalo Wild Wings, or Popeye's. Those are the places I go when I'm in a "calories be damned" sort of mood. I'm sure there's at least one person who doesn't like every place I go to, and that's fine too.0 -
Guess I'm a Chinese Cheeseburger since I eat those things on a regular basis.
ohhhh you eat chinese and cheeseburgers. i thought there was some new food out there and i knew nothing about it
I bet if we try hard enough we can make this a thing
Behold, a burger on ramen noodle bun!
(I know, I know...ramen isn't really chinese)0
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