"Paleo diet" - 70% fat???

lodro

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/2010/03/16/ada-diet-is-low-carb/

Before, I was eating up to 300 carbs/day. Now I try to keep it down to 20 (but, let's face it, we're human and food is delicious, so it doesn't always happen)

That guy is an idiot. Been to meetings with a nutritionists with my mother all the time. They never tell her eat one serving and leave it at that.

They give a serving size and from there you calculate your own calories. The ada does give guidance on this.

From the ADA website:

How Much Carb?
A place to start is at about 45-60 grams of carbohydrate at a meal. You may need more or less carbohydrate at meals depending on how you manage your diabetes. You and your health care team can figure out the right amount for you. Once you know how much carb to eat at a meal, choose your food and the portion size to match.

lodro

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/2010/03/16/ada-diet-is-low-carb/

Before, I was eating up to 300 carbs/day. Now I try to keep it down to 20 (but, let's face it, we're human and food is delicious, so it doesn't always happen)

300 carbs a day is a lot for anyone.

With the ADA guidelines, a diabetic (T2) might easily eat 200 grams of carbohydrates a day. All the while using medication to control blood sugar levels of course that could be largely controlled by eating a smaller amount of carbohydrates. I think I once read that the ADA maintains this stance because its doctrine is that a low carbohydrate diet is difficult to follow for most people.

cutmd

The government's lying to us, man (and med school still uses outdated info. Sure the technology is cool, but the food pyramid is wrong). Switching to Paleo/Primal was like Neo taking the red pill in the Matrix. I just wish more people would be more open to giving it a chance.

Grains are cheap and the government does want us to eat them for that reason. They are the easiest/cheapest way to provide calories to the masses. Med school IS outdated on nutrition, those of us interested in it have to do our own research.

Gewtting rid of gluten was like my red pill. Now if I just had your discipline to kick the sugar habit I'd be amazing. Me on vs off sugar is night and day....:embarassed:

DrBorkBork

From the ADA website:

How Much Carb?
A place to start is at about 45-60 grams of carbohydrate at a meal. You may need more or less carbohydrate at meals depending on how you manage your diabetes. You and your health care team can figure out the right amount for you. Once you know how much carb to eat at a meal, choose your food and the portion size to match.

Per MEAL. Conventional wisdom encourages 6 small meals a day. To a diabetic, that's 3 meals (180 carbs), and 3 snacks (another 45 carbs). Too much.

@CutMD, thanks for voicing & your epically awesome comments. I REALLY appreciate having an authority stepping in and "fighting the good fight"

monkeybelle83

*sigh* I miss being able to eat pork. Turkey bacon just isn't the same.

So eat piggy! Nothing wrong with a couple strips of happy, chemical-free bacon
Everything in moderation, right?

After I had my gallbladder removed due to failure, I can't digest pork at all. :-(

mrphil86

I'm interested on how you know med school is out dated. Everything gives a baseline.

Food pyramid was updated in 2010 and has scientific evidence to support it.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html <-- Does not have everything but is pretty good on showing it. (Yes it says the USDA Pyramid is not complete but their pyramid is based on it.)

I'm not stubborn when straight hard facts are put in my face. When someone THINKS it is good, that's where I have the problem.

I think we've steered away from the original point:

Why is a high fat diet good for you????

BryanAir

The government's lying to us, man (and med school still uses outdated info. Sure the technology is cool, but the food pyramid is wrong). Switching to Paleo/Primal was like Neo taking the red pill in the Matrix. I just wish more people would be more open to giving it a chance.

Grains are cheap and the government does want us to eat them for that reason. They are the easiest/cheapest way to provide calories to the masses. Med school IS outdated on nutrition, those of us interested in it have to do our own research.

Gewtting rid of gluten was like my red pill. Now if I just had your discipline to kick the sugar habit I'd be amazing. Me on vs off sugar is night and day....:embarassed:

True, cheap grains have prevented about a billion people from dying of starvation in the past 30 years. We have a tragedy of the commons situation here where the people in rich countries can afford to eat organically and eat healthy in a fashion that the world can't sustain.

cutmd

I'm interested on how you know med school is out dated.

Food pyramid was updated in 2005 and has scientific evidence to support it.

Well, as for me I went to medical school in 2000. Granted, I've been out a while, but while I was there I found the nutrition education lacking. Actually, most of what we learn in medical school is about 5-10 years old, we learn the cutting edge stuff in residency and in our own reading. Sucks but it is true.

Actually the food pyramid was last updated last year, and it does try to emphasize individuality a bit more. The food pyramid does have evidence to support it, not the best evidence, and it also has its critics. I don't think there is anything wrong with the average person eating like the pyramid, but I don't think there is anything wrong with NOT following the pyramid either. There is a lot of politics that goes into the pyramid, based off supply/demand and crop subsidies,

Also, there is something wrong when General Mills can point to thebase of the food pyramid as a reason to feed their sugary cereals like Lucky Charms to our children.
Here is Harvard public Health's critique of the latest pyramid:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html
The history of the food pyramid:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/usda-food-pyramid.html
A critique of the 2010 food pyramid:
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(10)00289-3/abstract

mrphil86

I'm interested on how you know med school is out dated.

Food pyramid was updated in 2005 and has scientific evidence to support it.

Well, as for me I went to medical school in 2000. Granted, I've been out a while, but while I was there I found the nutrition education lacking. Actually, most of what we learn in medical school is about 5-10 years old, we learn the cutting edge stuff in residency and in our own reading. Sucks but it is true.

Actually the food pyramid was last updated last year, and it does try to emphasize individuality a bit more. The food pyramid does have evidence to support it, not the best evidence, and it also has its critics. I don't think there is anything wrong with the average person eating like the pyramid, but I don't think there is anything wrong with NOT following the pyramid either. There is a lot of politics that goes into the pyramid, based off supply/demand and crop subsidies,

Also, there is something wrong when General Mills can point to thebase of the food pyramid as a reason to feed their sugary cereals like Lucky Charms to our children.
Here is Harvard public Health's critique of the latest pyramid:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html
The history of the food pyramid:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/usda-food-pyramid.html
A critique of the 2010 food pyramid:
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(10)00289-3/abstract

I've read Harvard's take on it but it did not seem like it was too far off.

Yes, nothing is perfect. But just like going to school, everything is a baseline. My diet is not what the pyramid says but it based off of it and it works for me. I do not eat a lot of bread, bagels, and things of that nature. However, I still eat a lot of carbs.

But, I still fail to see how a high consumption of fat is good for you.

cutmd

True, cheap grains have prevented about a billion people from dying of starvation in the past 30 years. We have a tragedy of the commons situation here where the people in rich countries can afford to eat organically and eat healthy in a fashion that the world can't sustain.

That's an excellent point, we have been feeding Africa and other countries with our grains. The true tragedy I think is the fact that many 3rd world countries have NO CHOICE but to eat mostly organic fruits, veggies, and occasional meats. My husband grew up in the Jamaican countryside without electricity and that is what he ate. Breads and other processed foods were a rare treat. However, now that we subsidize grains with our tax dollars and mass produce and export fruits and veggies, processed food is actually less expensive than fruits and veggies from the land, and everything is turned topsy turvy.

Poor people in Jamaica now eat organic fruits and veggies from their own land, a little meat, and imported US processed food as the basis of their diet. I am just wondering what would happen if we subsidized the fruits and veggies instead and made chemicals and hormones in our meat illegal like other countries do. How much would that cost compared to what we are doing now? Especially if we factor in the relative health of our society compared to those in other countries???

This is a great discussion

cutmd

I've read Harvard's take on it but it did not seem like it was too far off.

Yes, nothing is perfect. But just like going to school, everything is a baseline. My diet is not what the pyramid says but it based off of it and it works for me. I do not eat a lot of bread, bagels, and things of that nature. However, I still eat a lot of carbs.

But, I still fail to see how a high consumption of fat is good for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a lot of carbs, especially if it's working for you. I have seen no proof that high fat consumption is detrimental to health, either, though decreasing animal fat consumption in the face of high cholesterol seems to help some people get their numbers down just as low carb can be helpful for diabetics and low sodium for some people with hypertension. Again, I think it depends on your own genetic/physiologic makeup what diet will work best for you. With most people I would recommend starting at 40/30/30, but I don't think we have enough evidence to condemn those on either side of the pendulum.

monkeybelle83

I find it so tragic that those who are poor are essentially forced to eat cheap processed foods, at least in Oregon that's how it seems to be. The organic stuff is more expensive, sometimes by a lot, and getting good quality meats means spending a lot of money. I am thankful I don't have children yet because I don't know that I'd be able to feed them the healthy stuff and still afford everything else.

cutmd

@CutMD, thanks for voicing & your epically awesome comments. I REALLY appreciate having an authority stepping in and "fighting the good fight"

Hey whoa, no expert here, just another interested party that has also researched the issue. Hopefully no one thinks I'm fighting, either, since I think this can continue to be a great discussion if we keep it friendly.

Anyone read Michael Pollan? So far he's the nutrition expert I believe in the most...

godblessourhome

With most people I would recommend starting at 40/30/30, but I don't think we have enough evidence to condemn those on either side of the pendulum.

this has got to be the most reasonable response during the course this whole thread.

twinwolf

@CutMD, thanks for voicing & your epically awesome comments. I REALLY appreciate having an authority stepping in and "fighting the good fight"

Hey whoa, no expert here, just another interested party that has also researched the issue. Hopefully no one thinks I'm fighting, either, since I think this can continue to be a great discussion if we keep it friendly.

Anyone read Michael Pollan? So far he's the nutrition expert I believe in the most...

Still, you have commented in a respectful manner with first hand observation in a profession that actually has a good amount of insight on people and how they treat themselves.

I wish more people on this post would find a way to come off sounding a little more dignified and debate in a manner that is more of an attack on an idea than an attack on the person.

All in all, a lot of good information. Bottom line is we are all different. Different body types, different sensitivities to things we put in our bodies, and different ways of living. Trial and error is how we determine what is scientific fact. So try and see what works for you. Your body is very good at telling you what is good for or not good. You just have to listen to it. I hope everyone has a great weekend!

Peace.

DrBorkBork

Yes, nothing is perfect. But just like going to school, everything is a baseline. My diet is not what the pyramid says but it based off of it and it works for me.

Mine's based off the food pyramid, too... just turn that puppy upside down

believetoachieve

Don't get me wrong; I really do care about countries who can't feed themselves, and the appropriate carb intake for diabetics.. but if possible, could we talk about the specifics about the diet itself? Such as a high fat diet - is it actually safe/beneficial? And low protein - dangerous when trying to build muscle? Is it a good/safe idea to cut out major food groups? There's a lot of educated people here and I'd love to continue this discussion along these lines!

cutmd

Don't get me wrong; I really do care about countries who can't feed themselves, and the appropriate carb intake for diabetics.. but if possible, could we talk about the specifics about the diet itself? Such as a high fat diet - is it actually safe/beneficial? And low protein - dangerous when trying to build muscle? Is it a good/safe idea to cut out major food groups? There's a lot of educated people here and I'd love to continue this discussion along these lines!

I guess as the OP you do have some rights here :laugh:

My understanding of paleo isn't so much high fat as it is focused on meats, veggies, fruits, and nuts being the basis of a diet, +/- the occasional tubers. A lot of Paleo experts actually think lean meats are best, since man would have only had access to wild meat in the Paleolithic era, which is generally very lean. It tends to be a high protein, moderate fat, and low carb diet for most. However, high fat is not discouraged. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a low protein Paleo diet unless it's just that blubber extreme example which very few people follow. There is nothing dangerous about diet with 10% or more protein but yes more protein is recommended for muscle building.

It is safe to cut out food groups as long as it is done intelligently. For instance, vegetarians cut out meat without detriment as long as they get in beans, nuts, tofu, etc, and people with gluten and dairy intolerances have to cut out bread and dairy, respectively. Despite not having good evidence to back me up, I don't think it is ok to cut out whole energy sources, such as carbs, proteins, or fats completely. The brain runs on glucose, protein provides critical amino acids for tissue growth/repair, and fat allows digestion of certein nutrients. Fortunately the Paleo diet gives you carbs in the form of fruits and veggies and sometimes tubers, and has plenty of the other 2 nutrients. So I don't think anyone can say it's unhealthy without pretty firm proof.

That being said, I'm not a fan of the premise of the Paleo diet, that Grok was any better off than someone growing up in 19th century China, where they had plenty of rice and beans and lived much longer. Although I explained earlier why cutting out dairy, gluten, and sugar could help I haven't seen an excellent rationale for cutting out rice or beans save the benefits of calorie reduction. I am much more a fan of Michael Pollan's principles of returning to the way my great grandmother ate, rather than all the way to Grok. Do I think the Paleo way of eating is much healthier than the average American diet, or even the average diet of an American on a diet? You betcha.

Processed food is killing us off like flies, in my opinion. Why the rise in diabetes? In autoimmune disease? In cancers? As someone who diagnoses these conditions on a regular basis I'm very suspicious of our diet. The proof is limited but I'm convinced it will be there in my lifetime. K I'm going to go for a walk before I go off on a rant about processed food.....

DrBorkBork

I haven't seen an excellent rationale for cutting out rice or beans save the benefits of calorie reduction.

I think rice is a starch issue. Rice & potatoes always made my blood sugar kinda grumpy. The beans (as delicious as they are) tend to be hard to digest (there's a reason why there's a song about beans & gas, lol). How many times have y'all gone to the bathroom & there's undigested beans in your waste? I think those are the only reasons, really

freerange

First let me say,,,, cutmd,,,, dang your already married. Thanks for jumping in here as a voice of reason. I should say I follow the Primal/Paleo/caveman whatever you want to call it diet. I don’t drag *kitten* on long or intense exercise routines, in fact I spent 5 hours hiking up and down mountains (foothills) at 8000 ft today, and besides sore feet and back, felt great when I got back to the truck, did the same thing for the last 4 or 5 weeks. I’ve increased my bench press by 20 pounds in the last 2 months, not impressive I know but, I’m almost 50 and haven’t lifted weights with any seriousness for 20 years, so I’m taking it slow getting back into the weights.

To the person that said the food pyramid works every time,,,, all I can say is LMAOROTF, really? Have you looked at the typical American? Nuff said about that.

To the OP, 70% fat might be on the high side, Grokkett might be eating that much, I don’t know if that is typical of Paleo or not, heck I don’t even know how much fat I eat, I could look it up on my diary, but don’t really care, right now I’m in weight loss mode so I’m more concerned about carbs and total calories.

There is mountains of evidence that grains, (gluten), is detrimental to your health, there is nothing I can think of in wheat the body needs that can’t be found in other less detrimental foods easily without even having to try. So I have cut out all gluten grains, all processed sugar, avoid HFCS, and Hydrogenate oils. Call it clean eating, call it Paleo, I call it 30lbs lost and feel as good as I ever have.

To attack the Paleo diet as a fad, unscientific, or unhealthy, is nothing but un-researched ignorance. Anyone that has actually researched the Paleo diet knows there are plenty of (actual) Doctors that will back it up, there is plenty of research to back it up, and there is plenty of real people showing real results. Is it perfect? I doubt it. But in the opinion of many it is much more perfect than the BS shoveled by the FDA’s food pyramid.