If you think you gained muscle... Read this.
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1 to 5 reps = Strength & Power (Myofibrillar Hypertrophy)
6 to 12 reps = Size (Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy)
13 to 20 reps = Muscular Endurance
While your post has a lot of merit, I don't totally agree with this information for reps.
For each of these reps if I were to lift very slow and lower very slowly and go till fatigue; I'd be lifting like a body building looking for size.
For each of these reps if I were to lift explosively and lower slower and "not" go till fatigue and have adequate rest for my next set; I'd be lifting for strength.
For each of these reps if I were to use technique and momentum; I'd be lifting like a power lifter.
For each of these reps if I were to use explosiveness throughout the lifting till fatigued; I'd be lifting like an athlete.
All of these people would gain size and strength; but each would develop differently as they have different goals and are lifting differently. Each may be lifting different weights to accomplish these goals.
We all know for what ever you goals are whether it is a body builder, strengthening, power lifter or athlete, there are so many different routines with different set and rep amounts; it is too hard to generalize them by this.
How you want your muscle to react, perform, appear ... you need to workout this way. Do they need to be defined by a certain amount of reps; the answer is no.
The type two different types of hypertrophy engage at these rep ranges as a result of the "load" you put on them. As I said you can lift more weight for 5 reps than you can 8 and the load is more important than reps. Hence the reason some people will train with heavy singes and heavy doubles. I left out some of the technicalities in my original post but I will include them now.
Intensity is the key to building muscle mass and strength gains. By intensity I mean the percentage of your 1RM. To facilitate the microtrauma and bring about myofibrillar hypertrophy you should be lifting at 80%+ of your 1RM. Working at 50% of your 1RM for 10-12 (or event 1-5 reps) reps will not cause myofibrillar hypertrophy (because the load is not enough) and therefore, will not cause muscle mass gains. You may engage more muscle fibers, which will increase your strength to a certain point, but this is not the same as gaining muscle mass. You may disagree with me all you want, it doesn’t change how you body works.
As far as the speed at which you lift; yes this will impact your results differently. A faster explosive lift will allow you to lift more weight and build more strength and power, while a slower lift will require a bit of a lower weight but will build more muscular endurance throughout the range of motion. You see how that works, lifting faster will allow you to lift a heavier weight, lifting a heavier weight will reduce the number of sets that you can physically perform, and therefore will naturally put you into the lower rep range, the reverse is true for lifting slower. When you work with percentages of your 1RM these logical groupings of sets and reps will be true, because you are not going to lift 8 reps at 95% of your 1RM, it just won’t happen.No matter your body type you do need to change up your routine to keep the muscles responding
No offense intended, but the idea that you need to change your routine to keep your body responding is based upon man many years of bro-science that has been passed around way too much.
Case and point; I have been on the same routine for over 6 months (StrongLifts 5x5) and through that time I continued to gain strength and increase my work weight every singe gym session. Now that I am squatting over 1.5x my body weight, these gains have begun to stop and I will need to switch to making weekly increases in my work weight vs daily. I will also be on my next program (Starr/Madcow 5x5) for approx. 6 months before switching to Wndler’2 5/3/1 which is a 12 month program.
I do agree with you that different body types will respond differently and have different results; however that is not cause to choose a different program. The core lifts (squats, deads, cleans, bench, etc…) of any 5x5 program will work for anyone regardless of body type IF PROPER TECHNIQUE IS FOLLOWED. You will still get stronger, albeit slower/faster than others depending on your body type.
On a side note; I love the amount of responses this is getting, even those that disagree with me, because that at least means it is being read and people are thinking.0 -
I appreciate the response, I enjoy conversing with like minded people. The first quote was myself you were responding to, the second quote was not myself but another individual from an earlier post (StevLL).
In response to your reply to him, I am a firm believer that over time your body will adapt to the program you are doing. Instead of growing your body will find your regular routine hard and over time will seem harder and harder. People that are stuck in the same routine and/or have limited equipment/weights find this out. This is why I believe and have found out change is in order to continually challenge your body in order for it to continue to grow.
Now let me clarify some. One can stick with the same routine and still make gains; I have done so. You only need change up some things to trick your body and they can be small. It could be adding or deleting sets or reps or just change the order when I do it in the workout or take less/more time between sets. If then I am still getting no results then I change "that" exercise out for something different. If something is working why change it just because you've set a time limit? If you are still making gains then your body hasn't adapted to the exercise as of yet. And when I'm making no head way and have eliminated these then I will change to another workout.0 -
bump0
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1 to 5 reps = Strength & Power (Myofibrillar Hypertrophy)
6 to 12 reps = Size (Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy)
13 to 20 reps = Muscular Endurance
While your post has a lot of merit, I don't totally agree with this information for reps.
For each of these reps if I were to lift very slow and lower very slowly and go till fatigue; I'd be lifting like a body building looking for size.
For each of these reps if I were to lift explosively and lower slower and "not" go till fatigue and have adequate rest for my next set; I'd be lifting for strength.
For each of these reps if I were to use technique and momentum; I'd be lifting like a power lifter.
For each of these reps if I were to use explosiveness throughout the lifting till fatigued; I'd be lifting like an athlete.
All of these people would gain size and strength; but each would develop differently as they have different goals and are lifting differently. Each may be lifting different weights to accomplish these goals.
We all know for what ever you goals are whether it is a body builder, strengthening, power lifter or athlete, there are so many different routines with different set and rep amounts; it is too hard to generalize them by this.
How you want your muscle to react, perform, appear ... you need to workout this way. Do they need to be defined by a certain amount of reps; the answer is no.
The type two different types of hypertrophy engage at these rep ranges as a result of the "load" you put on them. As I said you can lift more weight for 5 reps than you can 8 and the load is more important than reps. Hence the reason some people will train with heavy singes and heavy doubles. I left out some of the technicalities in my original post but I will include them now.
Intensity is the key to building muscle mass and strength gains. By intensity I mean the percentage of your 1RM. To facilitate the microtrauma and bring about myofibrillar hypertrophy you should be lifting at 80%+ of your 1RM. Working at 50% of your 1RM for 10-12 (or event 1-5 reps) reps will not cause myofibrillar hypertrophy (because the load is not enough) and therefore, will not cause muscle mass gains. You may engage more muscle fibers, which will increase your strength to a certain point, but this is not the same as gaining muscle mass. You may disagree with me all you want, it doesn’t change how you body works.
As far as the speed at which you lift; yes this will impact your results differently. A faster explosive lift will allow you to lift more weight and build more strength and power, while a slower lift will require a bit of a lower weight but will build more muscular endurance throughout the range of motion. You see how that works, lifting faster will allow you to lift a heavier weight, lifting a heavier weight will reduce the number of sets that you can physically perform, and therefore will naturally put you into the lower rep range, the reverse is true for lifting slower. When you work with percentages of your 1RM these logical groupings of sets and reps will be true, because you are not going to lift 8 reps at 95% of your 1RM, it just won’t happen.No matter your body type you do need to change up your routine to keep the muscles responding
No offense intended, but the idea that you need to change your routine to keep your body responding is based upon man many years of bro-science that has been passed around way too much.
Case and point; I have been on the same routine for over 6 months (StrongLifts 5x5) and through that time I continued to gain strength and increase my work weight every singe gym session. Now that I am squatting over 1.5x my body weight, these gains have begun to stop and I will need to switch to making weekly increases in my work weight vs daily. I will also be on my next program (Starr/Madcow 5x5) for approx. 6 months before switching to Wndler’2 5/3/1 which is a 12 month program.
I do agree with you that different body types will respond differently and have different results; however that is not cause to choose a different program. The core lifts (squats, deads, cleans, bench, etc…) of any 5x5 program will work for anyone regardless of body type IF PROPER TECHNIQUE IS FOLLOWED. You will still get stronger, albeit slower/faster than others depending on your body type.
On a side note; I love the amount of responses this is getting, even those that disagree with me, because that at least means it is being read and people are thinking.
No offense taken, but at 27 and from what I can see on your profile probably within the first year or two of your workout journey you will indeed continue to gain quality muscle on basic routines without much change. Remeber your still a few years away from your HGH begining it's waning journey. Changing up your routine can be as simple as your change from daily to weekly increases in weight, or vise versa. Once your body achieves adaptation you must change it up. If you are looking for massive gains a regular routine for months on end will not cut it. Minmal gains will be achieved for sure, but I was raised in the old school and unless you are Mesomorphic and to a lesser degree Endomorphic you cannot make massive gains if your body does not get challanged bryond the normal. Notice I am talking about the difference between getting your body to make basic gains within normal routines and massive gains that the competition level folks are getting. In the 80' when I was lifting and working as a trainer I had the opportunity to go Frank Zane, Bob Birdsong, Chris Young & several other universe and olyimpian contender seminars and everyone of them says the same thing. You want massive gains you change up your routine regularly and shock the muscles. I look at them and gotta go with the proof and before anyone jumps in and says but they are juicing? yes, but they still have to work as hard if not harder because of the steroids. Frank Zane said it best 'you can enter the Mr Olympia without taking steriod but you can't win. I don't dispute your science, I just don't think it's complete.
Keep up the posts your right it's getting the cognitive juices flowing.0 -
So I thought I understood this, and then all the responses started to confuse me.
I'm not aiming for big muscles, I'm aiming for not flappy muscles. I'm slowly starting to move over to the free weight section. My weight is fairly low, 10-15 on arms, quite a bit heavier on legs, 30-40. 2 reps of 12, or until I have a hard time with the last rep.
It's working for me, grandma arms are down 2 inches. Now, I've never gained weight (from that) as the measurements show. While weight loss is not apparent scale-wise, in total I'm down 8 inches and a size. I have a feeling this is where the "it's muscle mass" comes from.
So are you saying that what I do isn't really effective? Cause I lost the thread meaning around page 4.0 -
So I thought I understood this, and then all the responses started to confuse me.
I'm not aiming for big muscles, I'm aiming for not flappy muscles. I'm slowly starting to move over to the free weight section. My weight is fairly low, 10-15 on arms, quite a bit heavier on legs, 30-40. 2 reps of 12, or until I have a hard time with the last rep.
It's working for me, grandma arms are down 2 inches. Now, I've never gained weight (from that) as the measurements show. While weight loss is not apparent scale-wise, in total I'm down 8 inches and a size. I have a feeling this is where the "it's muscle mass" comes from.
So are you saying that what I do isn't really effective? Cause I lost the thread meaning around page 4.
If it's working it's effective. Your measurements show it. In the begining almost anything you do your body will respond quickly to. As your body becomes more fit and efficient you will need to make adjustments, but for right now you are getting results, so keep on doing what you are doing. The results are awesome and you should be proud of that!0 -
No offense intended, but the idea that you need to change your routine to keep your body responding is based upon man many years of bro-science that has been passed around way too much.
The core lifts (squats, deads, cleans, bench, etc…) of any 5x5 program will work for anyone regardless of body type IF PROPER TECHNIQUE IS FOLLOWED.
These two points are severely lacking in the mindset of far too many of the fitness conscious. You hit the nail on the head here my friend. It bothers me how these myths are continuously propagated through blogs and magazines being run by people who don't have a clue about proper training and nutrition. The same people who keep talking about how you MUST eat six + times a day to "keep the metabolism humming along"... Completely untrue.0 -
yup..thats the way it works0
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LOVE THIS!! Ps I would like to request you as a friend
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So I thought I understood this, and then all the responses started to confuse me.
I'm not aiming for big muscles, I'm aiming for not flappy muscles. I'm slowly starting to move over to the free weight section. My weight is fairly low, 10-15 on arms, quite a bit heavier on legs, 30-40. 2 reps of 12, or until I have a hard time with the last rep.
It's working for me, grandma arms are down 2 inches. Now, I've never gained weight (from that) as the measurements show. While weight loss is not apparent scale-wise, in total I'm down 8 inches and a size. I have a feeling this is where the "it's muscle mass" comes from.
So are you saying that what I do isn't really effective? Cause I lost the thread meaning around page 4.
as the guy said..in cases of obesity you can gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time. but after a while it'll slack off and stop as your body fat lowers. thats why a lot of body builders 'bulk' and 'cut' in the old school manner. and bigger muscles wont make you less flabby..less fat will make you less flabby..you cant 'tone' or 'harden' muscles..they are what they are..you only seem squishy because of the large layer of fat overlying those muscles..thats why dont feel hard or 'toned'. i hate that word toned. its misleading0 -
another great thread mate 0
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It was my understanding that after lifting heavy weights you can see a gain in body weight due to minor (microscopic almost) inflammation and the restocking of glycogen in the muscles that were depleted. It's not new muscle unfortunately, but it's not fat, so it's no need to worry.0
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Love this post 0
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So, all of this should lead you to multiple logical conclusions. First, muscle mass is not the same thing as muscle size, i.e. a person can have visibly smaller but denser muscles and be stronger than someone with visibly larger muscles. This means that if you are trying to get strong and doing a bodybuilding routine, you are going nowhere fast. Secondly, but most importantly, you CANNOT gain muscle by accident! 5lb aerobic dumbbells will net you zero muscle mass gain, likewise walking, jogging, yoga, Pilates, etc… will net you zero muscle MASS gain. What you will gain is an increase in muscle fiber recruitment, which will result in some strength gains, but this should not be confused with muscle gains; they are two completely different things.
Gaining muscle mass is a hard and long process. In the BEST of conditions, the average male could gain approximately 3-5lbs of muscle in one month, and women will be lower than this around 1-2lbs. However these are the upper bounds, most people will fall well below these numbers. Males should expect no more than 1-2lbs of muscle mass per month and women no more than ½ to 1lb per month.
FOr the walking/jogging /running thing- I wonder if this is strictly true or just a guideline - follow me a bit on this one- I started out as sedentary but now am walking up to 25 miles per week- I am much more muscle-y than before- I realize that this is partially due to fat loss and increased visibility of my muscles and also muscle fiber recruitment but I think I have also gained some muscle- which is logical I should think when you consider I am hauling my nearly 300lb backside around quite a distance- I already have a lot of obligatory muscle (one has to in order to propel this much weight) but I think that I have added more- and no I am not talking 10s of pounds- but having seen what a pound of muscle looks like I am thinking 1/2 to 3/4 pound per leg and I bit in my arms too (I am amazed and how muscle- y my arms seem since starting my long distance walks) - I would not expect this increase to continue at the same rate but I do nkow that I am stronger and suspect more muscled than before0 -
So I thought I understood this, and then all the responses started to confuse me.
I'm not aiming for big muscles, I'm aiming for not flappy muscles. I'm slowly starting to move over to the free weight section. My weight is fairly low, 10-15 on arms, quite a bit heavier on legs, 30-40. 2 reps of 12, or until I have a hard time with the last rep.
It's working for me, grandma arms are down 2 inches. Now, I've never gained weight (from that) as the measurements show. While weight loss is not apparent scale-wise, in total I'm down 8 inches and a size. I have a feeling this is where the "it's muscle mass" comes from.
So are you saying that what I do isn't really effective? Cause I lost the thread meaning around page 4.
as the guy said..in cases of obesity you can gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time. but after a while it'll slack off and stop as your body fat lowers. thats why a lot of body builders 'bulk' and 'cut' in the old school manner. and bigger muscles wont make you less flabby..less fat will make you less flabby..you cant 'tone' or 'harden' muscles..they are what they are..you only seem squishy because of the large layer of fat overlying those muscles..thats why dont feel hard or 'toned'. i hate that word toned. its misleading
Spot on.0 -
It was my understanding that after lifting heavy weights you can see a gain in body weight due to minor (microscopic almost) inflammation and the restocking of glycogen in the muscles that were depleted. It's not new muscle unfortunately, but it's not fat, so it's no need to worry.
Yes, after lifting your muscles will store more water and glycogen as part of the recovery process which will minimally (1-2 lbs) increase your body weight, but as you said, this is not fat or muscle gain. This is one of the many reasons why body weight is a misleading metric to gauge progress.0 -
Thanks for the info, good to know!!!0
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I have just had a bio-impedence test done andin one month I lost 2.8kg in fat and gained 200 gms lean weight so that would suggest that it surely is possible to gain lean weight while calorie deficit.0
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So, all of this should lead you to multiple logical conclusions. First, muscle mass is not the same thing as muscle size, i.e. a person can have visibly smaller but denser muscles and be stronger than someone with visibly larger muscles. This means that if you are trying to get strong and doing a bodybuilding routine, you are going nowhere fast. Secondly, but most importantly, you CANNOT gain muscle by accident! 5lb aerobic dumbbells will net you zero muscle mass gain, likewise walking, jogging, yoga, Pilates, etc… will net you zero muscle MASS gain. What you will gain is an increase in muscle fiber recruitment, which will result in some strength gains, but this should not be confused with muscle gains; they are two completely different things.
Gaining muscle mass is a hard and long process. In the BEST of conditions, the average male could gain approximately 3-5lbs of muscle in one month, and women will be lower than this around 1-2lbs. However these are the upper bounds, most people will fall well below these numbers. Males should expect no more than 1-2lbs of muscle mass per month and women no more than ½ to 1lb per month.
FOr the walking/jogging /running thing- I wonder if this is strictly true or just a guideline - follow me a bit on this one- I started out as sedentary but now am walking up to 25 miles per week- I am much more muscle-y than before- I realize that this is partially due to fat loss and increased visibility of my muscles and also muscle fiber recruitment but I think I have also gained some muscle- which is logical I should think when you consider I am hauling my nearly 300lb backside around quite a distance- I already have a lot of obligatory muscle (one has to in order to propel this much weight) but I think that I have added more- and no I am not talking 10s of pounds- but having seen what a pound of muscle looks like I am thinking 1/2 to 3/4 pound per leg and I bit in my arms too (I am amazed and how muscle- y my arms seem since starting my long distance walks) - I would not expect this increase to continue at the same rate but I do nkow that I am stronger and suspect more muscled than before
I suppose it is possible that you may have gained some muscle (likely less than 1 lb). The most likely cause for this feeling of muscle gain is just what you have already stated; fat loss and muscle fiber recruitment. Many people mistake muscle fiber recruitment as muscle gain because of the feelings that it can cause. You will get a more noticeable feeling out of contracting your muscles than you did before, this is evident when people say things like “ I can feel muscles that I never knew I had.” Also muscle more muscle fibers are active, your muscle will likely feel denser/harder. Additionally, high rep and endurance type exercises will increase the sarcoplasmic fluid in your muscles giving them more of a full/pumped look. And finally the activation of additional muscle fibers does increase your strength, but once you get to around 90% muscle fiber activation (not something you will measure, the numbers are just for illustration) activating the remaining fibers and building additional muscle becomes the hard part and will take significant deliberate work.0 -
I'm coming back to this post later...0
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