Do you really need the gym to achieve to your goal?

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  • purple_punk
    purple_punk Posts: 174 Member
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    this is the very 1st time i've lost weight without using the gym & im surprised how much weight i've lost & how much motivation i have to work out without the gym, i loved the gym i was addicted to body pump classes but now i just do JM dvds & record workouts on "fitness tv" plus im currently doing week 5 of c25k, im so happy i can run now- im sometimes tempted to just go get a gym membership every month i want to just get a gym membership but i dont think i'll like the gym next to mine and my old gym is about 25 mins walk from mine, i walk longer distances but i hate going to the gym alone! plus i love how im saving money by not getting a gym membership lol

    i had a gym membership up till july last year but then i didnt go for a while ( about 5-6 months) so when i moved i decided to cancel the gym close to me is more expensive with limited classes! i loved the gym but im enjoying working out at home and running outside :)
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    You know there's another perspective on gyms, don't you? I am achieving my goals without a gym because there isn't a good one near me, but here are some reasons I would LIKE to go to a gym.

    I love to swim but live in a desert...the nearest seaside is more than 3 hrs. away by car...I used to swim at the gym!
    I love to play basketball but don't have public courts near me...I used to play ball at the gym!
    I love to play racquetball but can't afford my own court...I could play racquetball at the gym!

    It's more than weight lifting and cardio machines at a good gym. And while I love the Johnny Bravo reference (c'mon, how many didn't even get that?), I don't think the gym is just for people who try to get huge as a hobby. I've never been an athlete, I don't want that body, and I know I don't need the gym...but I miss the gym!:wink:

    Haha cheers for the Johnny Bravo comment, hooray :-)


    I get what you are saying but I was just aiming it at the treadmills weight etc...... All the courts are good fun to do with friends etc.
  • BetterWithAge
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    I need the gym. I feel more motivated when there are people around me working out. At home, there are too many distractions and I am constantly getting interrupted. I would love to have friends that want to get active. But, the few that I have are quite content trying to keep up with their kids. They gym by my house is not all hard bodies either. I would say about half of the people are overweight like me and are there to burn calories. I have a wonderful selection of machines and free weights along with classes and a theater. I will keep my membership :)

    I also have a dedicated space in my home for working out. I have a heavy bag, various weights, yoga and pilates equipment. Plus a TV for DVD's and the Wii... For the snow days. I have removed every possible excuse not to work out. :)
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    I totally get where you are coming from, but I also totally love my gym! So while I started out going to get fit, I know I will continue to go to keep fit!

    Plus, that's where my Zumba classes are!

    Haha hooray for zumba!!!
  • Black_Swan
    Black_Swan Posts: 770 Member
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    I go to the gym because I want to be STRONGER. Not more active - I can be active with walking and stuff like that. But I dont move furniture for a living and I am a city girl with not much chance to lift 30kg, so I love the gym and then I love the feeling that now I can open all cans and all bottles without help, and do my push ups... I simply like it:) Is it necessary - no. Is it helpful - yes.
  • Selly7749
    Selly7749 Posts: 48
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    This is my point though guys, motivation and spirit? What do you need that for? My point is don't make it about working out, or using machines or sweating like a mad woman infront of some energetic skinny person on a DVD.

    Just go out and spend time with your friends, family and loved ones, just walk instead of bussing, or do more active things that you all enjoy and eat balanced meals.

    I see what you mean - but the fact that you don't enjoy the gym or exercise dvds doesn't mean that other people don't. planned exercise is great, not just great cus you lose weight, it's wonderful to do something and achieve it, to have improving your fitness and your body as a hobby. Also, the rush of endorphins post-exercise is a nice treat. Exercise is time to myself, focused on myself, time at the gym is social time for me, and it can be just as fun as other things.

    For example, things like walking instead of bussing really frustrate me, because you run the risk of being late for things, of turning up sweaty, of being just a bit disorganised and all over the place. For me personally, I'd rather factor in exercise and schedule it in an organised way, because that is how I run my life effectively in other areas - it just works a bit for better for me, in the same way that doing things your way works better for you.
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    I have just come to the same realization myself and thanks for the humor too.

    Cheers for that! :-)
  • BabyDuchess
    BabyDuchess Posts: 353 Member
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    I go to the gym because I want to be STRONGER. Not more active - I can be active with walking and stuff like that. But I dont move furniture for a living and I am a city girl with not much chance to lift 30kg, so I love the gym and then I love the feeling that now I can open all cans and all bottles without help, and do my push ups... I simply like it:) Is it necessary - no. Is it helpful - yes.

    And that's why you're my friend because you're AWESOME!! :flowerforyou:
  • lsd007
    lsd007 Posts: 435
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    I would love to able to pay for both daycare and a gym membership but I can't. If I really needed the gym to achieve my goal I would never get there. All I NEED is myself. :wink:

    Also, I live in a tiny community and the closest decent gym is about an hour away so I would have to add money for gas to that list!
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    Agree with Chevy, I need the gym. I need it for motivation and inspiration. I like the structure of an aerobics class, I like the equipment that I could never afford to stock my house with. I don't think that makes me weak, I think it makes me smart for finding out what works for ME. Everyone is on a journey, and as long as you keep your eye on the prize, why is my way of getting there "wrong" just b/c it is different?

    I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying that it bores me and that I would rather lose weight a more fun way for me. It doesn't make you weak and I would never think that.

    The whole point of my post is to say that by leading an active life is all I need to do to stop being fat instead of going overboard at a gym, somewhere I hate going! It's all for laugh is this post and the comments are not aimed at anyone specific.
  • chevy88grl
    chevy88grl Posts: 3,937 Member
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    I have just posted this up on my blog and thought it would probably make a better topic, I'm sure it will stir up some friendly banter as many people will have different views! Here we go!!

    Do you really need the gym to achieve to your goal?
    Yes I have asked myself the question and NO I don't need the bloody gym. Why? Because it's crap that's why! It's the dullest, ugliest waste of space I have ever seen, well apart from a few ex boyfriends! ;-)

    Unless you want to look like Johnny Bravo then why bother? Why would I want to pay money to do something I hate? I have enough chores at home! I don't want to stroll down to the local gym on my days off work, feeling worse than what I do when I'm going to work and pay for the privilege!

    Just be active and live life! Go for a nice walk in the park or swimming with the kids! Drive over to your nearest seaside and swim in the sea. Go play sports games with your friends and go hiking with a picnic at national parks. Ride your bike to the city and have lots of sex with the person you love and just be happy!

    Lets face it, I'm fat because I get cabs instead of the bus, I get the bus instead of walking and I eat takeaways more often than not because I finish late from work and I can't be arsed cooking! The reasons above are why I'm fat, it's not because I don't go to the gym, it's because I'm not active! The gym is for people who want to keep fit, not get fit! That's why they keep going back because that's what they like to do it's a hobby! Let's not kid ourselves here ladies and gentlement if I liked to go to the gym and bust my gut I wouldn't be squeezing into size 18 jeans I'd be on the cat walk next to Naomi Campbell! That's just it we all wouldn't be fat if we actually loved going to the gym because we'd be there flexing our muscles to the opposite sex instead of pretending we like it!

    I had an amazing walk with my best friend today, we talked about life, love and our futures, it was great! We walked 9 miles and even more amazingly I burnt over 1000 calories! We walked to a small town outside of the city, found a local pub and had a diet coke and then walked back, it was great and I can't wait until tomorrow and we can do it all over again! I'll reach my weight loss goal enjoying my life thanks not killing my spirit in the process, ack!

    That is all /takes a bow ;-)

    Hm. I don't go to the gym to flex my muscles or to impress the other sex. I go because *I* enjoy the way I feel when I bust my butt working out.

    Please, don't generalize why people go to a gym. It would be like me picking at people who choose to workout at home. Not necessary. Do what works for you - but don't criticize those of us who use a gym (perhaps you're being critical because you'd like to try a gym out and are too nervous?).

    Sorry love that was just a joke about fit people, good on them for being fit too! If I was fit I'd be flexing my muscles! My first line says friendly banter I am just exercising my point about the gym.

    Also apart from me finding it like a chore and work yes I am under confident in the gym and I'm always concious about my fat *kitten* jiggling everywhere!

    Why on Earth do people make fun of fit people if they are ON THIS WEBSITE? Aren't you on this site to lose weight and be fit?

    Why would you make a joke about someone who is fit then? Seems a bit hypocritical to make a joke about the exact thing you are trying to achieve, no?
  • chevy88grl
    chevy88grl Posts: 3,937 Member
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    Agree with Chevy, I need the gym. I need it for motivation and inspiration. I like the structure of an aerobics class, I like the equipment that I could never afford to stock my house with. I don't think that makes me weak, I think it makes me smart for finding out what works for ME. Everyone is on a journey, and as long as you keep your eye on the prize, why is my way of getting there "wrong" just b/c it is different?

    I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying that it bores me and that I would rather lose weight a more fun way for me. It doesn't make you weak and I would never think that.

    The whole point of my post is to say that by leading an active life is all I need to do to stop being fat instead of going overboard at a gym, somewhere I hate going! It's all for laugh is this post and the comments are not aimed at anyone specific.

    I live an active life without the gym. I work on my feet 4-5 days a week for up to 9 hours a day. I am in constant movement while at work. I walk my dog everyday. I am active. I need more than a stroll around the neighborhood with my family to burn enough calories to lose or maintain my weight. I'm normally a very active person - so a "walk" isn't pushing my body. Going to the gym and RUNNING on the treadmill (can't run on pavement due to steel rods in my spine) or whatever is what my body needs to burn some serious fat.

    If walking with your family is what works for you - GREAT. More power to you. But, not all of us consider a "walk" enough exercise. I enjoy pushing my body. And going to the gym achieves that FOR ME.
  • mom23nuts
    mom23nuts Posts: 636 Member
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    I don't think I NEED the gym like have to have it or else...but I do believe that they offer me something from time to time I can't get at home....free daycare and different machines and fun classes with friendly people that all seem to know each other all pushing each other motivationally .

    I do know that I get there and there are no excuses...at home if something comes up and the baby won't nap or the older 2 boys start fighting or time gets away from me I am frantically trying to replan my time to make sure I get in a workout before the end of the day.

    At the gym...I go at my set time when they offer the babysitting and get in some spinning or the treadmill or a class or the weight room.

    I can't afford to have all of that at home so I go there...but do I NEED it to achieve my ultimate goals....probably not since I lost the bulk of my weight without it just walking and joggging and using home equipment, so it depends on how motivated I am to keep going....but I don't NEED it to keep going.

    between you and me and whoever else is reading this....I have struggled more with my weight and actually losing much more since joining the gym. I saw better results doing it on my own and I don't know why that is. Maybe it is because the last 20 lbs are the hardest to lose since I am already conditioned and have come so far on my own and that is when I joined the gym thinking it would be smooth sailing and found that not to be the case.
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    I have just posted this up on my blog and thought it would probably make a better topic, I'm sure it will stir up some friendly banter as many people will have different views! Here we go!!

    Do you really need the gym to achieve to your goal?
    Yes I have asked myself the question and NO I don't need the bloody gym. Why? Because it's crap that's why! It's the dullest, ugliest waste of space I have ever seen, well apart from a few ex boyfriends! ;-)

    Unless you want to look like Johnny Bravo then why bother? Why would I want to pay money to do something I hate? I have enough chores at home! I don't want to stroll down to the local gym on my days off work, feeling worse than what I do when I'm going to work and pay for the privilege!

    Just be active and live life! Go for a nice walk in the park or swimming with the kids! Drive over to your nearest seaside and swim in the sea. Go play sports games with your friends and go hiking with a picnic at national parks. Ride your bike to the city and have lots of sex with the person you love and just be happy!

    Lets face it, I'm fat because I get cabs instead of the bus, I get the bus instead of walking and I eat takeaways more often than not because I finish late from work and I can't be arsed cooking! The reasons above are why I'm fat, it's not because I don't go to the gym, it's because I'm not active! The gym is for people who want to keep fit, not get fit! That's why they keep going back because that's what they like to do it's a hobby! Let's not kid ourselves here ladies and gentlement if I liked to go to the gym and bust my gut I wouldn't be squeezing into size 18 jeans I'd be on the cat walk next to Naomi Campbell! That's just it we all wouldn't be fat if we actually loved going to the gym because we'd be there flexing our muscles to the opposite sex instead of pretending we like it!

    I had an amazing walk with my best friend today, we talked about life, love and our futures, it was great! We walked 9 miles and even more amazingly I burnt over 1000 calories! We walked to a small town outside of the city, found a local pub and had a diet coke and then walked back, it was great and I can't wait until tomorrow and we can do it all over again! I'll reach my weight loss goal enjoying my life thanks not killing my spirit in the process, ack!

    That is all /takes a bow ;-)

    Hm. I don't go to the gym to flex my muscles or to impress the other sex. I go because *I* enjoy the way I feel when I bust my butt working out.

    Please, don't generalize why people go to a gym. It would be like me picking at people who choose to workout at home. Not necessary. Do what works for you - but don't criticize those of us who use a gym (perhaps you're being critical because you'd like to try a gym out and are too nervous?).

    Sorry love that was just a joke about fit people, good on them for being fit too! If I was fit I'd be flexing my muscles! My first line says friendly banter I am just exercising my point about the gym.

    Also apart from me finding it like a chore and work yes I am under confident in the gym and I'm always concious about my fat *kitten* jiggling everywhere!

    Why on Earth do people make fun of fit people if they are ON THIS WEBSITE? Aren't you on this site to lose weight and be fit?

    Why would you make a joke about someone who is fit then? Seems a bit hypocritical to make a joke about the exact thing you are trying to achieve, no?

    Right I have given you an explaination, I am not making fun of fit people in a bad way, of course I want to be fit! I am sorry if I have offended you that was not my intention but if I can't say anything else to you for you to feel any different towards me then I suggest you don't comment on my topic and read one that doesn't offend you!
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    Thanks for posting this! It's nice to know that others agree that having a gym membership and some change in your back pocket isn't the only way to weight loss success.

    I think we as a society forget that people did go walking, swimming, biking, and such before the invention of the gym.

    So....here's a flower for you! :flowerforyou:

    Awwh how nice thanks! Glad you agree! :-) xxx
  • chevy88grl
    chevy88grl Posts: 3,937 Member
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    I love going to CLASSES at my gym :) Sure I can run and walk and pop in workout videos at home. I go for walks to enjoy nature and refresh my mind and spirit, but for an intense butt-kicker, I do spin and sculpt classes at my gym. :) Because they burn loads of cals, and tone my butt and legs. And they're fun! I totally agree with you on losing weight naturally though, by being more active. I'm trying to do that at the same time as hitting the gym every couple days a week for a higher level of fitness. Also I do agree that you don't need a gym to lose weight.. but to get reallyy fit when you're not overweight anymore (like me, trying to just trim away fat and tone up), I need to incorporate some type of intense workouts into my week.

    Thanks for posting this!

    EDIT: I agree with lots of people in that it also is great motivation to push myself harder, especially with all the other people in the class who I feel are "watching" me haha. Even though that's not the case, I like to think they are so that I work extra hard. ;P

    Haha good response!
    Thats my point though, people go to stay fit and keep in shape, the majority of people who are fat don't tend to stick with it otherwise they wouldn't be fat.
    People who are really fit pride themselves on going because they like being fit and that's what they like to do. Thats not a bad thing but I'm not fit hence why I hate the gym I think it's a drag! Now if I was fit and I loved the way I looked and I always wanted to improve it or maintain it then maybe!

    xxx :-)

    I was fat when I joined the gym. I stuck it out because I saw results and then next thing I knew -- I looked forward to going! I enjoyed going. I loved the large amount of workout choices it offered me.
  • CraigIW
    CraigIW Posts: 176
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    I'm nearly at my goal with nothing more than diet, a few walks, and taking the stairs at work. I know I'm not fit, but I'm not too fat now either and don't have the time!
  • chevy88grl
    chevy88grl Posts: 3,937 Member
    Options
    I have just posted this up on my blog and thought it would probably make a better topic, I'm sure it will stir up some friendly banter as many people will have different views! Here we go!!

    Do you really need the gym to achieve to your goal?
    Yes I have asked myself the question and NO I don't need the bloody gym. Why? Because it's crap that's why! It's the dullest, ugliest waste of space I have ever seen, well apart from a few ex boyfriends! ;-)

    Unless you want to look like Johnny Bravo then why bother? Why would I want to pay money to do something I hate? I have enough chores at home! I don't want to stroll down to the local gym on my days off work, feeling worse than what I do when I'm going to work and pay for the privilege!

    Just be active and live life! Go for a nice walk in the park or swimming with the kids! Drive over to your nearest seaside and swim in the sea. Go play sports games with your friends and go hiking with a picnic at national parks. Ride your bike to the city and have lots of sex with the person you love and just be happy!

    Lets face it, I'm fat because I get cabs instead of the bus, I get the bus instead of walking and I eat takeaways more often than not because I finish late from work and I can't be arsed cooking! The reasons above are why I'm fat, it's not because I don't go to the gym, it's because I'm not active! The gym is for people who want to keep fit, not get fit! That's why they keep going back because that's what they like to do it's a hobby! Let's not kid ourselves here ladies and gentlement if I liked to go to the gym and bust my gut I wouldn't be squeezing into size 18 jeans I'd be on the cat walk next to Naomi Campbell! That's just it we all wouldn't be fat if we actually loved going to the gym because we'd be there flexing our muscles to the opposite sex instead of pretending we like it!

    I had an amazing walk with my best friend today, we talked about life, love and our futures, it was great! We walked 9 miles and even more amazingly I burnt over 1000 calories! We walked to a small town outside of the city, found a local pub and had a diet coke and then walked back, it was great and I can't wait until tomorrow and we can do it all over again! I'll reach my weight loss goal enjoying my life thanks not killing my spirit in the process, ack!

    That is all /takes a bow ;-)

    Hm. I don't go to the gym to flex my muscles or to impress the other sex. I go because *I* enjoy the way I feel when I bust my butt working out.

    Please, don't generalize why people go to a gym. It would be like me picking at people who choose to workout at home. Not necessary. Do what works for you - but don't criticize those of us who use a gym (perhaps you're being critical because you'd like to try a gym out and are too nervous?).

    Sorry love that was just a joke about fit people, good on them for being fit too! If I was fit I'd be flexing my muscles! My first line says friendly banter I am just exercising my point about the gym.

    Also apart from me finding it like a chore and work yes I am under confident in the gym and I'm always concious about my fat *kitten* jiggling everywhere!

    Why on Earth do people make fun of fit people if they are ON THIS WEBSITE? Aren't you on this site to lose weight and be fit?

    Why would you make a joke about someone who is fit then? Seems a bit hypocritical to make a joke about the exact thing you are trying to achieve, no?

    Right I have given you an explaination, I am not making fun of fit people in a bad way, of course I want to be fit! I am sorry if I have offended you that was not my intention but if I can't say anything else to you for you to feel any different towards me then I suggest you don't comment on my topic and read one that doesn't offend you!

    I'm not offended at all. I'm simply telling you that I think you have tunnel vision when it comes to the people who go to gyms and who use gyms as a way to workout, lose weight, be fit, etc. Considering you haven't been to a gym - you're making judgements on the people who use them based on a cartoon character. Or whatever. Do what works for you, but I don't find it necessary to be critical of the choices other people make.
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
    Options
    I love going to CLASSES at my gym :) Sure I can run and walk and pop in workout videos at home. I go for walks to enjoy nature and refresh my mind and spirit, but for an intense butt-kicker, I do spin and sculpt classes at my gym. :) Because they burn loads of cals, and tone my butt and legs. And they're fun! I totally agree with you on losing weight naturally though, by being more active. I'm trying to do that at the same time as hitting the gym every couple days a week for a higher level of fitness. Also I do agree that you don't need a gym to lose weight.. but to get reallyy fit when you're not overweight anymore (like me, trying to just trim away fat and tone up), I need to incorporate some type of intense workouts into my week.

    Thanks for posting this!

    EDIT: I agree with lots of people in that it also is great motivation to push myself harder, especially with all the other people in the class who I feel are "watching" me haha. Even though that's not the case, I like to think they are so that I work extra hard. ;P

    Haha good response!
    Thats my point though, people go to stay fit and keep in shape, the majority of people who are fat don't tend to stick with it otherwise they wouldn't be fat.
    People who are really fit pride themselves on going because they like being fit and that's what they like to do. Thats not a bad thing but I'm not fit hence why I hate the gym I think it's a drag! Now if I was fit and I loved the way I looked and I always wanted to improve it or maintain it then maybe!

    xxx :-)

    I was fat when I joined the gym. I stuck it out because I saw results and then next thing I knew -- I looked forward to going! I enjoyed going. I loved the large amount of workout choices it offered me.

    Good, that's a great story then! you stuck it, good on you! :-)
  • TheSarahHill
    TheSarahHill Posts: 185
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    I have just posted this up on my blog and thought it would probably make a better topic, I'm sure it will stir up some friendly banter as many people will have different views! Here we go!!

    Do you really need the gym to achieve to your goal?
    Yes I have asked myself the question and NO I don't need the bloody gym. Why? Because it's crap that's why! It's the dullest, ugliest waste of space I have ever seen, well apart from a few ex boyfriends! ;-)

    Unless you want to look like Johnny Bravo then why bother? Why would I want to pay money to do something I hate? I have enough chores at home! I don't want to stroll down to the local gym on my days off work, feeling worse than what I do when I'm going to work and pay for the privilege!

    Just be active and live life! Go for a nice walk in the park or swimming with the kids! Drive over to your nearest seaside and swim in the sea. Go play sports games with your friends and go hiking with a picnic at national parks. Ride your bike to the city and have lots of sex with the person you love and just be happy!

    Lets face it, I'm fat because I get cabs instead of the bus, I get the bus instead of walking and I eat takeaways more often than not because I finish late from work and I can't be arsed cooking! The reasons above are why I'm fat, it's not because I don't go to the gym, it's because I'm not active! The gym is for people who want to keep fit, not get fit! That's why they keep going back because that's what they like to do it's a hobby! Let's not kid ourselves here ladies and gentlement if I liked to go to the gym and bust my gut I wouldn't be squeezing into size 18 jeans I'd be on the cat walk next to Naomi Campbell! That's just it we all wouldn't be fat if we actually loved going to the gym because we'd be there flexing our muscles to the opposite sex instead of pretending we like it!

    I had an amazing walk with my best friend today, we talked about life, love and our futures, it was great! We walked 9 miles and even more amazingly I burnt over 1000 calories! We walked to a small town outside of the city, found a local pub and had a diet coke and then walked back, it was great and I can't wait until tomorrow and we can do it all over again! I'll reach my weight loss goal enjoying my life thanks not killing my spirit in the process, ack!

    That is all /takes a bow ;-)

    Hm. I don't go to the gym to flex my muscles or to impress the other sex. I go because *I* enjoy the way I feel when I bust my butt working out.

    Please, don't generalize why people go to a gym. It would be like me picking at people who choose to workout at home. Not necessary. Do what works for you - but don't criticize those of us who use a gym (perhaps you're being critical because you'd like to try a gym out and are too nervous?).

    Sorry love that was just a joke about fit people, good on them for being fit too! If I was fit I'd be flexing my muscles! My first line says friendly banter I am just exercising my point about the gym.

    Also apart from me finding it like a chore and work yes I am under confident in the gym and I'm always concious about my fat *kitten* jiggling everywhere!

    Why on Earth do people make fun of fit people if they are ON THIS WEBSITE? Aren't you on this site to lose weight and be fit?

    Why would you make a joke about someone who is fit then? Seems a bit hypocritical to make a joke about the exact thing you are trying to achieve, no?

    Right I have given you an explaination, I am not making fun of fit people in a bad way, of course I want to be fit! I am sorry if I have offended you that was not my intention but if I can't say anything else to you for you to feel any different towards me then I suggest you don't comment on my topic and read one that doesn't offend you!

    I'm not offended at all. I'm simply telling you that I think you have tunnel vision when it comes to the people who go to gyms and who use gyms as a way to workout, lose weight, be fit, etc. Considering you haven't been to a gym - you're making judgements on the people who use them based on a cartoon character. Or whatever. Do what works for you, but I don't find it necessary to be critical of the choices other people make.

    I am not being critical I have expressed my view of why I don't like the gym. I have been to a gym, I have had memberships, I didn't stick to it because I didn't have the will power and I hated it, it bored me. I am not commenting being a hypocrit, I have done all the things that I talk about on here. I'm still fat because I didn't stick with it! This is my whole point!