Fat Loss vs Scale Weight Loss

dilysin

I think there is a lot of merit in the the information the OP has put forward, especially put forward the concept of tracking changes in body composition using methods over and above the scale and how to calculate LBM and fat mass etc.

Azackery, I do think you have your terminology confused in some aspects. It saddens me a little that it WILL detract from your overall message which is a good and positive one. I think you probably know more overall than some people are giving you credit for.

I do hope you continue striving and moving forwards. If you want to discuss any aspects of training or nutrition then I would be glad to do so in the future.

Take care,

Michael

Nicely put, I am a bit OCD which is why it is bothering me so much, theory seems sound, fat does not make one look pretty it is all floppy and unshapely, nice lean body mass on the other hand a nice shape makes. Fat is very important, but also so very dangerous and worse still, so very tasty, what an evil double-edged sword you are..

I really should be off to bed, goodnight all.

servilia

AZ,
I agree your overall message is good, that people should pay attention to the changes in their body composition. So far so good.

But once you start a thread you cannot tell people not to respond. I am not insulting you, calling you names, etc. I am correcting some misinformation for the benefit of everyone.

If you don't want people to respond, write in a blog with closed comments. Here we have the right to respond.

AZackery

I think there is a lot of merit in the the information the OP has put forward, especially put forward the concept of tracking changes in body composition using methods over and above the scale and how to calculate LBM and fat mass etc.

Azackery, I do think you have your terminology confused in some aspects. It saddens me a little that it WILL detract from your overall message which is a good and positive one. I think you probably know more overall than some people are giving you credit for.

I do hope you continue striving and moving forwards. If you want to discuss any aspects of training or nutrition then I would be glad to do so in the future.

Take care,

Michael

Michael, you see my terminology as being wrong. Okay. So many other people are wrong as well. That includes personal trainers. By the way are you a personal trainer and nutritionist? You've said that if I wanted to discuss any aspect of training and nutrition that I could talk to you.

I'm not a personal trainer. Well, I'm my own personal trainer. I'm not a nutritionist either. But, I'm in the medical field and familiar with nutrition. My education didn't stop in college. I'm self educated as well. I'm forever increasing my education.

ThePhoenixRose

"Posts by members, moderators and admins should not be considered medical advice and no guarantee is made against accuracy."

Am I the only one who's read this statement that appears at the bottom of EVERY page of EVERY thread? For those of you who say they are correcting the "misinformation" for the sake of others... If you're smart enough to figure out the difference in weight/mass/volume/density/etc., why fo you assume the rest of us aren't?

Just leave this poor girl alone! She's said her piece, is trying to help people, and has been trying to be respectful. I read the entire other thread as well. Most of you ended up being just plain mean. I understand the argument. I get what she's trying to say, as do the rest of you, who've tried to prove your point over and over. Obviously AZ is sticking to her guns.

Take what you will from this thread... Agree. Disagree. Whatever. Those of you who are arguing - just leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I'm generally not one to stir the pot, but this has gotten to me. I believe people are generally good. I believe people want to help. I believe people do not start out with the intent to belittle anyone. I appreciate those of you who have reinforced these beliefs.

I wish all of you continued luck on your journey, whatever it may be.

AZackery

"Posts by members, moderators and admins should not be considered medical advice and no guarantee is made against accuracy."

Am I the only one who's read this statement that appears at the bottom of EVERY page of EVERY thread? For those of you who say they are correcting the "misinformation" for the sake of others... If you're smart enough to figure out the difference in weight/mass/volume/density/etc., why fo you assume the rest of us aren't?

Just leave this poor girl alone! She's said her piece, is trying to help people, and has been trying to be respectful. I read the entire other thread as well. Most of you ended up being just plain mean. I understand the argument. I get what she's trying to say, as do the rest of you, who've tried to prove your point over and over. Obviously AZ is sticking to her guns.

Take what you will from this thread... Agree. Disagree. Whatever. Those of you who are arguing - just leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I'm generally not one to stir the pot, but this has gotten to me. I believe people are generally good. I believe people want to help. I believe people do not start out with the intent to belittle anyone. I appreciate those of you who have reinforced these beliefs.

I wish all of you continued luck on your journey, whatever it may be.

Thank you Ktkoopman

myofibril

By the way are you a personal trainer and nutritionist? You've said that if I wanted to discuss any aspect of training and nutrition that I could talk to you.

Lol - no. I toyed with the idea of being a trainer a while ago but decided the big initial pay cut wasn't for me;)

Most of my knowledge simply comes from a love affair with health and fitness for many years now and keeping my knowledge updated through my own efforts. I do have a competitive athletic background but that was some time ago. In addition, a significant part of my job requires being able to understand and apply scientific and medical information and data.

I am glad your thread has calmed down and I think the discussions were useful.

tigersword

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

Impossible question. If they both weigh five pounds, then they are not volumetrically equal. If they are equal volumetrically, then they will not both weigh 5 pounds. It is quite physically impossible.

servilia

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

Impossible question. If they both weigh five pounds, then they are not volumetrically equal. If they are equal volumetrically, then they will not both weigh 5 pounds. It is quite physically impossible.

This.

AZackery

Lol - no. I toyed with the idea of being a trainer a while ago but decided the big initial pay cut wasn't for me;)

Most of my knowledge simply comes from a love affair with health and fitness for many years now and keeping my knowledge updated through my own efforts. I do have a competitive athletic background but that was some time ago. In addition, a significant part of my job requires being able to understand and apply scientific and medical information and data.

I am glad your thread has calmed down and I think the discussions were useful.

You can get certified and be a part-time personal trainer. I plan on becoming a personal trainer one day. That will not be my full time job.

myofibril

You can get certified and be a part-time personal trainer. I plan on becoming a personal trainer one day. That will not be my full time job.

Yeah, I guess that is one option. Good luck with your goal.

Hey, I want to give you something to consider. People often talk about losing 1lb of fat which as I have said also goes by the name of white adipose tissue. 1lb of fat is 454 grams but of that around 90% is lipid on average. So actually only 400 grams is stored triglycerides - TGs (what people are really seeking to lose on a fat loss routine using a process known as lipolysis.)

Therefore, even if you see a 1lb loss on the scale which ties up with maintaining LBM but losing 1lb of fat given your caliper measurements it will not all be stored TGs.

In addition as has been referenced before given the way your body partition calories 100% fat loss with no loss of LBM / muscle isn't really a physiological reality. However say you lost 90% of that 1lb as "fat" and 10% as muscle that is only 54 grams we are talking about. Therefore worrying about whether it is 100% fat loss or 90% fat loss with 10% muscle is rather pointless in practical terms.

This really goes back to my point that people who get too caught up in the numbers can miss the overall point that it is trends that are more important, not specific numbers. Just something to consider...

AZackery

Yeah, I guess that is one option. Good luck with your goal.

Hey, I want to give you something to consider. People often talk about losing 1lb of fat which as I have said also goes by the name of white adipose tissue. 1lb of fat is 454 grams but of that around 90% is lipid on average. So actually only 400 grams is stored triglycerides - TGs (what people are really seeking to lose on a fat loss routine using a process known as lipolysis.)

Therefore, even if you see a 1lb loss on the scale which ties up with maintaining LBM but losing 1lb of fat given your caliper measurements it will not all be stored TGs.

In addition as has been referenced before given the way your body partition calories 100% fat loss with no loss of LBM / muscle isn't really a physiological reality. However say you lost 90% of that 1lb as "fat" and 10% as muscle that is only 54 grams we are talking about. Therefore worrying about whether it is 100% fat loss or 90% fat loss with 10% muscle is rather pointless in practical terms.

This really goes back to my point that people who get too caught up in the numbers can miss the overall point that it is trends that are more important, not specific numbers. Just something to consider...

Michael, prior to my thread, were you familiar with the formula that helps a person tell how much of their scale weight is fat and how much is lean body mass? Have you've applied this knowledge to your weight loss or muscle gain? I don't know what you are tracking.

You don't believe that there is no way a person can lose 100% pounds of fat without losing lean body mass. Are you living proof that this is wrong?

meerkat70

You don't believe that there is no way a person can lose 100% pounds of fat without losing lean body mass. Are you living proof that this is wrong?

Are you living proof that this is right?

It's a physiological impossibility. Of course you will mostly lose fat. Frankly you will mostly lose fat on almost any weightloss programme. Minimising the loss of muscle is of course a sensible plan. But you cannot lose fat without losing some of the stuff that goes along with it, no.

tigersword

It's scientifically proven fact. That's how the human body works. It is physically impossible to lose only fat, because the human body splits it's energy needs between calories ingested, fat stores, and excess muscle. When the body burns fat, it only burns a certain percentage of fat before it switches to breaking down muscle to burn as energy. It depends on various factors, including genetics, intensity of activity, and duration of activity Fat stores are an essential part of the body,as they are responsible for storage and creation of many different hormones that regulate body function, so the body is very stubborn about burning too much at one time.

That said, calculating your lean body mass is NOT a very good indicator as to whether you have gained or lost muscle, as lean body mass includes bone density, water, internal organs, skin, just about all of which can vary in weight at different times. Just because you haven't lost lean body mass doesn't mean you haven't lost muscle, as you may have become more active, and have a larger glycogen store in your muscles, which requires more water in your muscles, which will add to lean body mass. You could also be doing weight bearing exercises that increase bone density, that can also lead to increases in lean body mass. By the same token, not all loss of lean body mass is muscle.

AZackery

That said, calculating your lean body mass is NOT a very good indicator as to whether you have gained or lost muscle, as lean body mass includes bone density, water, internal organs, skin, just about all of which can vary in weight at different times. Just because you haven't lost lean body mass doesn't mean you haven't lost muscle, as you may have become more active, and have a larger glycogen store in your muscles, which requires more water in your muscles, which will add to lean body mass. You could also be doing weight bearing exercises that increase bone density, that can also lead to increases in lean body mass. By the same token, not all loss of lean body mass is muscle.

Tigersword, how can a person tell when they have gained or lost muscles? Is there a formula they use or do they just guess?

myofibril

Michael, prior to my thread, were you familiar with the formula that helps a person tell how much of their scale weight is fat and how much is lean body mass? Have you've applied this knowledge to your weight loss or muscle gain? I don't know what you are tracking.

I have in the past. At one point in my life get sub 10% body fat was important to me so I was tracking my LBM and fat mass in the way that you described.

I don't really do that anymore. Now, I focus on more meaningful goals, well to me at least. I track how my lifts are progressing, average wattage when I am rowing etc. Fitness goals NOT physique goals because the content of my training is geared towards that.

You don't believe that there is no way a person can lose 100% pounds of fat without losing lean body mass. Are you living proof that this is wrong?

It's not a question of what I believe. Anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight in comparison to science. There is no way, certainly in all the research I have read that you can lose nothing other than fat on a fat loss routine. You can reduce the amount of muscle you sacrifice to a small percentage, depending on your genetics, to the point where it is almost the same as 100% but not ACTUALLY 100%.

I have always lost some muscle / LBM on a cut. However, I can if I wanted to minimise that to a very small degree. If I could be bothered. Which is usually not.

Ok, I gotta go. It's been emotional

tigersword

That said, calculating your lean body mass is NOT a very good indicator as to whether you have gained or lost muscle, as lean body mass includes bone density, water, internal organs, skin, just about all of which can vary in weight at different times. Just because you haven't lost lean body mass doesn't mean you haven't lost muscle, as you may have become more active, and have a larger glycogen store in your muscles, which requires more water in your muscles, which will add to lean body mass. You could also be doing weight bearing exercises that increase bone density, that can also lead to increases in lean body mass. By the same token, not all loss of lean body mass is muscle.

Tigersword, how can a person tell when they have gained or lost muscles? Is there a formula they use or do they just guess?

Hydrostatic weighing is really the only way to know for sure. Muscle, water, bone, fat all have different densities and they can utilize hydrostatic weighing to figure out the differences. To anyone who isn't a professional bodybuilder, fat percentage is really the only number that matters. I really don't care what the scale says, when I get to my goal body fat I'm done, doesn't matter if I end up weighing 200, 190, 170, or 150. It is what it is.

AZackery

Hydrostatic weighing is really the only way to know for sure. Muscle, water, bone, fat all have different densities and they can utilize hydrostatic weighing to figure out the differences. To anyone who isn't a professional bodybuilder, fat percentage is really the only number that matters. I really don't care what the scale says, when I get to my goal body fat I'm done, doesn't matter if I end up weighing 200, 190, 170, or 150. It is what it is.

Tigerswood, let me see if I'm am understanding you. You are saying that if a person wants to know if they have gained or lost muscles, they would have to get a hydrostatic testing done.

Bodybuilders follow the formula that I have shown in my original post, which is:

Weight x body fat percentage = pounds of fat
Weight - pounds of fat = lean body mass

Bodybuilders tend to use a caliper to track their progress. I have not come across a bodybuilder yet that has stated that in order to find out how much muscles you have gained or loss, you have to get a hydrostatic test done.

Thanks, but I'm going to stick to the formula above.

tigersword

Lean body mass is more than just muscle. Lean body mass is EVERYTHING in your body except fat. You can estimate using a body fat calculation, but saying you have 174 pounds of LBM one measurement, and 175 pounds of LBM the next time, you cannot, without hydrostatic testing, know with 100% certainty that that one pound gain is muscle. It's impossible. It could be any combination of muscle, skin, bone, and water.

And that is my point. It doesn't matter. The only number that matters to me is body fat %. Because I am not a professional competitive bodybuilder, and I do not need to add a specific amount of muscle to my body in order to compete in competitions. Most bodybuilders don't know with 100% certainty either, unless they are actively competing, then they may have themselves checked.

How many professional competitive body builders do you know, anyway?

AZackery

Lean body mass is more than just muscle. Lean body mass is EVERYTHING in your body except fat. You can estimate using a body fat calculation, but saying you have 174 pounds of LBM one measurement, and 175 pounds of LBM the next time, you cannot, without hydrostatic testing, know with 100% certainty that that one pound gain is muscle. It's impossible. It could be any combination of muscle, skin, bone, and water.

And that is my point. It doesn't matter. The only number that matters to me is body fat %. Because I am not a professional competitive bodybuilder, and I do not need to add a specific amount of muscle to my body in order to compete in competitions. Most bodybuilders don't know with 100% certainty either, unless they are actively competing, then they may have themselves checked.

How many professional competitive body builders do you know, anyway?

I know what lean body mass is. As for hydrostatic testing, to my knowledge, its a test to determine a person's body fat percentage.

Tigersworld, have you had a hydrostatic test done or more than one? If so, what information does the test print out or tester write on your information sheet? Weight, pounds of fat, pounds of muscles, pounds of bones, etc.?

I'm aiming to lose fat. That's my focus. I have a body fat percentage goal.

tigersword

Then body fat percentage should be your focus, and the rest of it shouldn't make a difference.