Women strength training... for real
Replies
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I missed this. I just started reading The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women and it insists that even women don't need a ton of cardio to get the body they want. Another blog I read (by OP I think) said cardio is really just to help with calorie deficit. I can lift and eat 1700 or I can lift, do cardio and eat 2300.... I chose cardio.
Are their benefits to cardio aside from creating a larger calorie deficit?
While I am interested in becoming more toned and lean, I also want to be able to run around, goof off, and walk up stairs without getting winded. Could I get those results by lifting alone? Or should I mainly lift with a side of light cardio?0 -
I missed this. I just started reading The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women and it insists that even women don't need a ton of cardio to get the body they want. Another blog I read (by OP I think) said cardio is really just to help with calorie deficit. I can lift and eat 1700 or I can lift, do cardio and eat 2300.... I chose cardio.
Are their benefits to cardio aside from creating a larger calorie deficit?
While I am interested in becoming more toned and lean, I also want to be able to run around, goof off, and walk up stairs without getting winded. Could I get those results by lifting alone? Or should I mainly lift with a side of light cardio?
My suggestion is the latter. I happen to have a very active job...which is part of what allows me to remain well rounded without improving my cardiovascular health via direct exercise (that and living at 5000' elevation). Cardio is worth it for heart and lung health, but is totally unnecessary in my opinion for fat loss.0 -
I missed this. I just started reading The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women and it insists that even women don't need a ton of cardio to get the body they want. Another blog I read (by OP I think) said cardio is really just to help with calorie deficit. I can lift and eat 1700 or I can lift, do cardio and eat 2300.... I chose cardio.
Are their benefits to cardio aside from creating a larger calorie deficit?
While I am interested in becoming more toned and lean, I also want to be able to run around, goof off, and walk up stairs without getting winded. Could I get those results by lifting alone? Or should I mainly lift with a side of light cardio?
My suggestion is the latter. I happen to have a very active job...which is part of what allows me to remain well rounded without improving my cardiovascular health via direct exercise (that and living at 5000' elevation). Cardio is worth it for heart and lung health, but is totally unnecessary in my opinion for fat loss.
That's what I assumed, just wanted some confirmation from someone who's been at it longer than me.
I'm just excited to know that it's "okay" to switch gears and lay off the cardio a bit. I hate it, but I made myself do it because I through that you just had to. That's the thing ya do, right? I enjoy lifting, so it will be a welcome change of pace to lift more and treadmill less!0 -
Bahahahaha!! Sorry, I couldn't help myself :laugh: Carry on!0 -
I missed this. I just started reading The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women and it insists that even women don't need a ton of cardio to get the body they want. Another blog I read (by OP I think) said cardio is really just to help with calorie deficit. I can lift and eat 1700 or I can lift, do cardio and eat 2300.... I chose cardio.
Are their benefits to cardio aside from creating a larger calorie deficit?
While I am interested in becoming more toned and lean, I also want to be able to run around, goof off, and walk up stairs without getting winded. Could I get those results by lifting alone? Or should I mainly lift with a side of light cardio?
That is my question too. I like the "fitness" being in good cardio shape gives me. The ability to mountain bike, play rugby, hike, snowboard, etc. So as I plan to start increasing my strength I wonder how much cardio I need to keep in order to maintain this cardiovascular fitness. Is it 45min 3 times a week? Less? More? (I haven't finished my book, maybe it answers this question)0 -
:laugh: BAHAHAHA!!! LOL!!! LOVE IT!!! :laugh:
You all need to pick up the book "Younger next year". I'm only 39, but I still found it a great book to read! So...pass the popcorn and get to reading! :flowerforyou:0 -
When I work with my trainer, we end up varying the reps - but generally stick to 10 reps / 4 sets. When I lift on my own, I work out longer and try to do 15 reps X four sets - increasing the weight with each subsequent set. Because I'm coming off knee surgery, I'm doing really light weight for my legs, and much heavier for back - shoulder- arms.Re: reps--12 reps seems to be my "mental" limit now that I've gotten used to (hooked!) on lifting heavy for 6 to 8 reps. I'm on the last stage of New Rules of Lifting for Women now and it's got a component where it's 15 to 20 reps. It's killing me! I plan on starting Rippetoe's Starting Strength program after that and I'm so looking forward to low reps/high weight.
Another question to throw out there. How do you vary your strength training for different body parts - i.e. do legs one day, arm next day, back - shoulder, etc. I try to mix in some legs with arms each time and end with abdominals.0 -
AWESOME VID!!!!!!!!!! Those grrls are rockin' it! Love to see women who ain't afeard of the IRON!! Thanks OP!0
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Very good eyes opener ! thanks you
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Bump for later reading0
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Finally read through all 6 pages of this thread. So glad I saw this. Great discussion! It was perfect timing as I have been more concerned about my current training resulting in muscle mass loss. I've been running three times a week for the past 9 weeks and I started Insanity August 1st (just completed month 1 yesterday). I have lost a lot of weight since starting my journey but I don't feel I have built lean muscle definition and I'm getting paranoid of becoming "skinny fat".
I know it will take time to reach my goals but I want to make sure I am training my body the right way now while losing weight. I've tried to throw in strength training but I know it hasn't been consistent or enough. I don't have a gym membership and I don't plan on joining a gym anytime soon again. I have started using the plan at bodybuilding.com here - http://www.bodybuilding.com/guides/female-20to39-fat-loss/training. I have modified it a bit since I am doing the routine at home and because I'm still running and doing insanity.
I was thinking of cutting back running to twice a week and doing strength training three times a week and continue following the insanity schedule for month 2 which is 6 days a week. It will look something like this:
Sunday - REST
Monday - Run, Insanity
Tuesday - Strength (upper body), Insanity
Wednesday - Insanity
Thursday - Strength (lower body), Insanity
Friday - Run, Insanity
Saturday - Strength (full body), Insanity
OR, I am wondering if I should cut back Insanity to 5 days a week, run 3 days a week and strength 3 days a week.
Another thing, my daily calorie goal is set to 1400 now. Some days I eat more, depends on how hungry I am. I keep wondering if I need to up my calories when I start strength training. Running and Insanity already make me very hungry.
I'm really new to this whole fitness thing so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! :happy:0 -
Sunday - REST
Monday - Run, Insanity
Tuesday - Strength (upper body), Insanity
Wednesday - Insanity
Thursday - Strength (lower body), Insanity
Friday - Run, Insanity
Saturday - Strength (full body), Insanity
I am by no means qualified to speak on this, but that sounds like a brutal schedule! From what I have heard from numerous fitness professionals, more is NOT more when it comes to exercise, at least in terms of getting lean and strong, if that is your goal. I have heard that too much intense exercise can elevate cortisol levels, which causes us to hang on to body fat, which is counter to what most of us here are looking for. I'm guessing that doing strength on those days is enough and that strength plus Insanity might be too much, but I guess I'm interested in what people more "in the know" have to say.0 -
Bump for later!0
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I really should take a photo of myself and post it here the next time I'm doing deadlifts. I routinely pull 225 for 5 reps and I weigh 125 pounds. I have fairly muscular legs, but that's mostly a happenstance of genetics. The rest of me is lean, but not bulky. Most people have no idea I lift heavy, based on my size. This whole "bulking up" myth is very irksome.
Ladies, lift heavy!
What's even more irksome is when a woman watches a video, such as you pulling 225, and they'll still harp about heavy weights making women bulky. Seeing isn't even believing for some. At which point I chalk them up as a lost cause.
"Who needs a balanced approach? I'll apply only one form of stress to my body and leave all the other potential benefits on the table."0 -
I totally agree with the OP on this, and am perplexed with my women friends - In real life who never lift any weights and are really surprised when I explain to them that it's part of my normal workout. I look forward to the weight lifting much more than the cardio parts of my workouts. I just turned 50, and if lifting will help me maintain my muscle mass, you bet I'm going to be dedicated to doing it all the time.
My only question is how to determine the right amount of weight to be lifting. I don't completely understand when a weight is considered Heavy vs. normal. Any advice there?
I linked to another thread on MFP where I explained how to select a weight. Let me copy and paste from it:
Strength training is tough. It's not supposed to feel light and easy. That light and easy feeling is reserved for metabolic conditioning such as cardio or circuit training. People often get tripped up gauging the efficacy of their exercise on how it feels. Unfortunately, very few of them understand how it's supposed to feel.
How heavy should you go though? That's a good question. Here's what we know...
We know that when we attempt to move a barbell, our nervous systems tell our muscles to generate force by shortening. It tells our muscles to get busy via electrical impulses that travel down from the brain, down the spinal cord and through the nerves that are connected to your muscles. A bunch of biochemistry happens at this point with the end product being muscular contraction. The greater the weight on the barbell, the greater the force that needs to be applied to it if it’s to move.
Just as with everything else, for adaptation/improvement to occur, you need to overload the system in question. In this case we’re talking about the neuromuscular system. Your nervous system and the muscles that it’s attached to all respond to progressive strength training as long as sufficient tension is generated.
Graphically it we can present this like:
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t264/stroutman81/Training/?action=view¤t=Tension-TimeGraph.jpg
Did you actually check out the link? If not, be sure to do so so that you understand what I'm about to say. It's important.
Anything above the threshold line represents an overload. You can think of the area under the curves and above the threshold line as the magnitude of stress that represents overload. The higher the tension that’s required in a given effort, the shorter that effort will last, which should be obvious. If I asked you to bench press 250 lbs you might get 1 repetition that lasts 3-5 seconds (curve 1). If I asked you to bench 200 lbs you might get 8 repetitions that takes you 40-60 seconds (curve 2).
As you can see, you can have a tall and thin stimulus for improvement (curve 1) or a short and wide stimulus for improvement (curve 2). There are multiple ways of generating an overload, which is why a “magical” set and rep combination doesn’t exist.
We measure force in pounds and define it as intensity. Intensity is the proximity of the weight being lifted to your maximum ability. In the above example, 250 lbs would be your maximum effort or 100% intensity. 200 lbs is 80% of 250 so it is 80% intensity.
The threshold of intensity that’s required for adaptation to take place is roughly 65%-70% on average. Anything above that will “work.” It’s also important to note that as the lifter becomes more advanced, the higher this threshold will be. In other words, the threshold itself adapts to training.
As an example of how you can use this model to think about training, let’s look at circuit training. Circuit training typically involves using a high volume of exercise with little rest between movements and high reps. This can build muscular endurance, improve cardiovascular conditioning, and increase mental toughness. But feeling the burn is not a prerequisite for strength gain. In circuit training, due to the lack of rest between sets, fatigue interferes with the ability to lift weight. This in turn reduces the tension at the muscle level thus providing less of a signal for strength gain. In other words, if we were to draw a curve for circuit training on the above graph, even at its peak it would be below the threshold line.
And no, I don't recommend training to failure. Within the 12 to 15 rep range, failure is predominantly a neurological phenomenon and it's not doing much at the local, muscle level. The risk/reward to training to failure simply isn't there.
I'm sure some of you want more applicable information than the above... so here goes.
With my clients I simply set a target rep range and let them know how it should "feel." Generally speaking, reps dictate weight as higher rep ranges require the use of lighter weights and lower rep ranges allow for more weight to be used. Granted, I could set the rep range at 8-12 and you could select a weight that you could easily do 30+ reps with, but stop at 8-12, but that would disregard the whole "how it should feel" qualifier.
So how should it feel?
You want to be using loads that feel heavy, but not so heavy that you're having to "grind" the weight up. By grind, I mean the weight goes up at a snail's pace as you shake and struggle to move the bar or dumbbell each and every inch. If I subscribe 8 reps for instance, I expect my clients to use a weight that has them reaching 8 reps with 1.. maybe 2 reps left in the tank.
I also like to use RPE (rating of perceived exertion) which I feel helps solidify how a weight should feel and thus what weight you should use. I like Mike Tuchscherer's scale the best which looks something like:
• 7: Maximal, no reps left in the tank at end of set
• 6: Last rep is tough but still one rep left in the tank
• 5: Weight is too heavy to maintain fast bar speed but isn’t a struggle; 2–4 reps left
• 4: Weight moves quickly when maximal force is applied to the weight; “speed weight”
• 3: Light speed work; moves quickly with moderate force
• 2: Most warm-up weights
• 1: Recovery; usually 20 plus rep sets; not hard but intended to flush the muscle
Most work as far as strength training goes should fall somewhere around a 5-6. Hopefully this helps?
The deal is though, don't worry about picking the "perfect" weight originally. PIck logical rep ranges... I'd say anywhere from 4-12 per set... and start with weights that are extremely easy. This will allow for perfect form. Once you're more than comfortable with form, as this is a critical component of effective training, then start slowly adding weight to each movement over time. Remember, it's not just using a weight that's "heavy enough." It's staying ahead of your body's homeostasis threshold. If you're using weights that your body doesn't "see" as a challenge to it's current condition, it's not going to change. So I'd argue that it's the progression that's more important than the load you're using at this moment.
So start light (relative to the reps you're shooting for) and progress from there.0 -
I'm not sure if you've read this thread... but women can't get bulky unless they've some serious hormone imbalances. And if you're dieting.... which most of the women around here are... you're definitely not going to be adding appreciable muscle. Heck, even guys who are dieting aren't going to be adding appreciable muscle while dieting.
Look how heavily the women in the video are lifting. They've built up to those loads over extended periods of time. Would you call them bulky?
Toning is about fat loss. Not strength training or whatever.
First off, I don't diet, because I don't believe in dieting. Second, in oder for a man or woman to get bulk, they have to take something and eat a lot to get to that point. It's not easy for a man to get bulk as well. What a lot of people don't realize is that, woman have man in her, hint wo man. If a woman lifts weights like a man and take things like a man, she will bulk like a man.
I strength train to tone my body. I can speak for my body, no one else can.
Well while you're doing that... I'm speaking of human physiological principles that apply to all of us.
If you choose not to subscribe though... that's fine by me. Best to ya!0 -
I missed this. I just started reading The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women and it insists that even women don't need a ton of cardio to get the body they want. Another blog I read (by OP I think) said cardio is really just to help with calorie deficit. I can lift and eat 1700 or I can lift, do cardio and eat 2300.... I chose cardio.
Are their benefits to cardio aside from creating a larger calorie deficit?
While I am interested in becoming more toned and lean, I also want to be able to run around, goof off, and walk up stairs without getting winded. Could I get those results by lifting alone? Or should I mainly lift with a side of light cardio?
Yes, there are definitely other physiological benefits to conditioning work. It's simple... if you're in this solely for fat loss... then no, you don't need any form of conditioning/cardio work. If you're in this for optimizing health and performance, which is the case with me, some individually tailored conditioning is likely called for.0 -
Finally read through all 6 pages of this thread. So glad I saw this. Great discussion! It was perfect timing as I have been more concerned about my current training resulting in muscle mass loss. I've been running three times a week for the past 9 weeks and I started Insanity August 1st (just completed month 1 yesterday). I have lost a lot of weight since starting my journey but I don't feel I have built lean muscle definition and I'm getting paranoid of becoming "skinny fat".
I know it will take time to reach my goals but I want to make sure I am training my body the right way now while losing weight. I've tried to throw in strength training but I know it hasn't been consistent or enough. I don't have a gym membership and I don't plan on joining a gym anytime soon again. I have started using the plan at bodybuilding.com here - http://www.bodybuilding.com/guides/female-20to39-fat-loss/training. I have modified it a bit since I am doing the routine at home and because I'm still running and doing insanity.
I was thinking of cutting back running to twice a week and doing strength training three times a week and continue following the insanity schedule for month 2 which is 6 days a week. It will look something like this:
Sunday - REST
Monday - Run, Insanity
Tuesday - Strength (upper body), Insanity
Wednesday - Insanity
Thursday - Strength (lower body), Insanity
Friday - Run, Insanity
Saturday - Strength (full body), Insanity
OR, I am wondering if I should cut back Insanity to 5 days a week, run 3 days a week and strength 3 days a week.
Another thing, my daily calorie goal is set to 1400 now. Some days I eat more, depends on how hungry I am. I keep wondering if I need to up my calories when I start strength training. Running and Insanity already make me very hungry.
I'm really new to this whole fitness thing so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! :happy:
I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.
More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.0 -
I've actually been doing the bodybuilding.com women's workout bible workout for several weeks. It's close to one that I'd put together for myself a few years ago.
I'm a believer in lifting heavy. I know I won't bulk like a man, but I like knowing that I can hold my own in a weight room. I've had men comment on how much I lift and have had women ask how to get shoulders and a stomach like mine. For those who do countless reps with little to no resistance, wouldn't you feel better knowing that your effort is actually accomplishing something? I know I do!0 -
I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.
More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.
Insanity is high intensity, extreme cardio. It's as its name says, it's insane. That combined with running has been brutal but I run in the morning and do insanity in the evening so it hasn't been too difficult. Now with adding in more strength, yea it could get brutal. My goal is to get down to a healthy weight (whatever that may be but currently aiming for about 140-145 but that is subject to change - I currently weigh 171). I also want to build lean muscle and tone - don't want to be "skinny fat". I still want to look feminine but strong. Think Beyonce. I'm a very curvy girl and that won't go away so I'm not trying to be skinny or look like that zuzanna girl that was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thanks0 -
I am by no means qualified to speak on this, but that sounds like a brutal schedule! From what I have heard from numerous fitness professionals, more is NOT more when it comes to exercise, at least in terms of getting lean and strong, if that is your goal. I have heard that too much intense exercise can elevate cortisol levels, which causes us to hang on to body fat, which is counter to what most of us here are looking for. I'm guessing that doing strength on those days is enough and that strength plus Insanity might be too much, but I guess I'm interested in what people more "in the know" have to say.
LOL, yea it sounds brutal to me too. My schedule has pretty much been brutal for the past 3 months but some how I've been powering through it and have lost a lot of weight and inches. I'm happy with my progress so far in terms of the weight/inches but I see why it is important to incorporate strength training and that's the missing piece of the puzzle for me right now that is causing me to not get the results I am seeking. I'm a bit stubborn though so I don't want to give up running or insanity so just trying to figure out how to incorporate all three (run, insanity, strength) without overdoing it and while allowing me to get lean and strong because yes that is my goal.0 -
I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.
More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.
Insanity is high intensity, extreme cardio. It's as its name says, it's insane. That combined with running has been brutal but I run in the morning and do insanity in the evening so it hasn't been too difficult. Now with adding in more strength, yea it could get brutal. My goal is to get down to a healthy weight (whatever that may be but currently aiming for about 140-145 but that is subject to change - I currently weigh 171). I also want to build lean muscle and tone - don't want to be "skinny fat". I still want to look feminine but strong. Think Beyonce. I'm a very curvy girl and that won't go away so I'm not trying to be skinny or look like that zuzanna girl that was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thanks
Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!
Look, it's like this...
You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.
I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.
It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.
To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.
1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.
2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.
3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.
But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.
But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.
You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.
I view things very simple.
- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).
- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).
- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.
- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.
- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.
- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.
- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.
That's it.0 -
Wow stroutman, thank you so much for that thorough response. Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out. So bottom line is I need to cut back on the cardio and increase my strength training. Since I don't have a gym to go to and I don't have the equipment at home to do the lifting the ladies do in the video I'm pretty much stuck with dumbells, resistance bands and my own body weight. Hopefully that is enough. I was going to do 3 strength training routines a week with the first day focused on upper body, second routine - lower body and third - full body but you suggest 2 days a week of fully body. It seems I need to cut back on both running and insanity but haven't figured out how much to cut back. I could cut back running to twice a week and maybe insanity to four but that still sounds like a lot of cardio. Well, thanks again for your help. I get it now.
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Wow stroutman, thank you so much for that thorough response. Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out. So bottom line is I need to cut back on the cardio and increase my strength training. Since I don't have a gym to go to and I don't have the equipment at home to do the lifting the ladies do in the video I'm pretty much stuck with dumbells, resistance bands and my own body weight. Hopefully that is enough. I was going to do 3 strength training routines a week with the first day focused on upper body, second routine - lower body and third - full body but you suggest 2 days a week of fully body. It seems I need to cut back on both running and insanity but haven't figured out how much to cut back. I could cut back running to twice a week and maybe insanity to four but that still sounds like a lot of cardio. Well, thanks again for your help. I get it now.
You could definitely get by with 1 upper body day, 1 lower body day, and 1 total body day if that's what you'd prefer.
And the lower intensity cardio is the stuff that isn't going to use up a lot of 'fuel' (not to be confused with calories... I mean recuperative fuel). So in theory, you can do this more frequently. Assuming it's not marathon level stuff, you can do some jogging (steady state, tempo runs, farteks or whatever you like) pretty much every day. Though I do like one day of complete rest. If I had to throw out a number... I'd say 3-5 days per week.
Now if you're also hooked on this high intensity conditioning stuff... I'd definitely limit that to 2 days per week. Remember, you're dieting. Which means you're recuperative abilities are compromised. There's less food and nutrients coming in the door to effect recovery.
So maybe 3 days of the lower intensity cardio and 2 days of the higher intensity stuff.0 -
You could definitely get by with 1 upper body day, 1 lower body day, and 1 total body day if that's what you'd prefer.
And the lower intensity cardio is the stuff that isn't going to use up a lot of 'fuel' (not to be confused with calories... I mean recuperative fuel). So in theory, you can do this more frequently. Assuming it's not marathon level stuff, you can do some jogging (steady state, tempo runs, farteks or whatever you like) pretty much every day. Though I do like one day of complete rest. If I had to throw out a number... I'd say 3-5 days per week.
Now if you're also hooked on this high intensity conditioning stuff... I'd definitely limit that to 2 days per week. Remember, you're dieting. Which means you're recuperative abilities are compromised. There's less food and nutrients coming in the door to effect recovery.
So maybe 3 days of the lower intensity cardio and 2 days of the higher intensity stuff.
Thanks stroutman!!! :flowerforyou:0 -
I somehow missed this thread all weekend. I'm glad it showed up because it was definitely a great read.
I love my strength work. The one that has caused the biggest improvement in what I can and can't do has been Olympic weightlifting. I've been doing it for a little less than three months one day a week, and it has made huge differences in my flexibility, stamina and strength.0 -
I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.
More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.
Insanity is high intensity, extreme cardio. It's as its name says, it's insane. That combined with running has been brutal but I run in the morning and do insanity in the evening so it hasn't been too difficult. Now with adding in more strength, yea it could get brutal. My goal is to get down to a healthy weight (whatever that may be but currently aiming for about 140-145 but that is subject to change - I currently weigh 171). I also want to build lean muscle and tone - don't want to be "skinny fat". I still want to look feminine but strong. Think Beyonce. I'm a very curvy girl and that won't go away so I'm not trying to be skinny or look like that zuzanna girl that was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thanks
Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!
Look, it's like this...
You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.
I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.
It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.
To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.
1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.
2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.
3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.
But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.
But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.
You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.
I view things very simple.
- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).
- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).
- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.
- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.
- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.
- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.
- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.
That's it.
I nominate this for post of the year.
My girlfriend is slowly starting to connect that less is more in this scenario. She is the full on kettlebell and heavy weight, hit it hard and don't stop six days a week type...and she is super jealous of my 3 day a week, < 1hr a day workout routine...and the results of it. She blames it on me being male lol.
I can't wait for her to read this. 0 -
very informative! thanks Stroutman, this has been helpful for me as I am a high intensity cardio junkie trying to reform myself. I'm currently training for half and full marathons but working on keeping my heart rate lower than I normally would, it's amazing how much better I feel when my HR stays below 160 on a 10 mile run when last year I would easily push 175 for an average.
Excited to up my weight training after the races and hopefully get my body where I want it to be 0 -
good info... thanks
:drinker:0 -
Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!
Look, it's like this...
You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.
I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.
It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.
To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.
1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.
2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.
3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.
But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.
But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.
You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.
I view things very simple.
- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).
- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).
- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.
- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.
- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.
- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.
- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.
That's it.
I nominate this for post of the year.
My girlfriend is slowly starting to connect that less is more in this scenario. She is the full on kettlebell and heavy weight, hit it hard and don't stop six days a week type...and she is super jealous of my 3 day a week, < 1hr a day workout routine...and the results of it. She blames it on me being male lol.
I can't wait for her to read this.
I second that nomination. I really like how Mark Sisson breaks down his plan:
1) Move frequently at a slow pace -- walking, hiking, cycling, 55-75% max heart rate, 2-5 hrs/week -- he emphasizes just being active doing fun, recreational stuff that you like
2) Lift heavy things -- brief, intense sessions of full-body functional movements 1-3 times/week -- he emphasizes 5 basic bodyweight exercises with progression to make them more difficult and says you can add weight as needed (plank, pullup, pushup, squat and press)
3) Sprint - all out, max effort for less than 10 minutes, once every 7-10 days (this is drastically different than what the Insanity program is!)
The rest (of being strong and lean), he says, is really about diet, getting good amounts of sleep, keeping stress levels low, etc.
He's goes into more detail in his eBook, which is free on his website, if anyone is interested: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-fitness/0
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