Women strength training... for real

OneBryteSmile

I am by no means qualified to speak on this, but that sounds like a brutal schedule! From what I have heard from numerous fitness professionals, more is NOT more when it comes to exercise, at least in terms of getting lean and strong, if that is your goal. I have heard that too much intense exercise can elevate cortisol levels, which causes us to hang on to body fat, which is counter to what most of us here are looking for. I'm guessing that doing strength on those days is enough and that strength plus Insanity might be too much, but I guess I'm interested in what people more "in the know" have to say.

LOL, yea it sounds brutal to me too. My schedule has pretty much been brutal for the past 3 months but some how I've been powering through it and have lost a lot of weight and inches. I'm happy with my progress so far in terms of the weight/inches but I see why it is important to incorporate strength training and that's the missing piece of the puzzle for me right now that is causing me to not get the results I am seeking. I'm a bit stubborn though so I don't want to give up running or insanity so just trying to figure out how to incorporate all three (run, insanity, strength) without overdoing it and while allowing me to get lean and strong because yes that is my goal.

stroutman81

I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.

More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.

Insanity is high intensity, extreme cardio. It's as its name says, it's insane. That combined with running has been brutal but I run in the morning and do insanity in the evening so it hasn't been too difficult. Now with adding in more strength, yea it could get brutal. My goal is to get down to a healthy weight (whatever that may be but currently aiming for about 140-145 but that is subject to change - I currently weigh 171). I also want to build lean muscle and tone - don't want to be "skinny fat". I still want to look feminine but strong. Think Beyonce. I'm a very curvy girl and that won't go away so I'm not trying to be skinny or look like that zuzanna girl that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Thanks

Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!

Look, it's like this...

You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.

I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.

It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.

To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.

1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.

2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.

3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.

But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.

But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.

You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.

I view things very simple.

- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).

- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).

- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.

- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.

- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.

- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.

- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.

That's it.

OneBryteSmile

Wow stroutman, thank you so much for that thorough response. Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out. So bottom line is I need to cut back on the cardio and increase my strength training. Since I don't have a gym to go to and I don't have the equipment at home to do the lifting the ladies do in the video I'm pretty much stuck with dumbells, resistance bands and my own body weight. Hopefully that is enough. I was going to do 3 strength training routines a week with the first day focused on upper body, second routine - lower body and third - full body but you suggest 2 days a week of fully body. It seems I need to cut back on both running and insanity but haven't figured out how much to cut back. I could cut back running to twice a week and maybe insanity to four but that still sounds like a lot of cardio. Well, thanks again for your help. I get it now.

stroutman81

Wow stroutman, thank you so much for that thorough response. Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out. So bottom line is I need to cut back on the cardio and increase my strength training. Since I don't have a gym to go to and I don't have the equipment at home to do the lifting the ladies do in the video I'm pretty much stuck with dumbells, resistance bands and my own body weight. Hopefully that is enough. I was going to do 3 strength training routines a week with the first day focused on upper body, second routine - lower body and third - full body but you suggest 2 days a week of fully body. It seems I need to cut back on both running and insanity but haven't figured out how much to cut back. I could cut back running to twice a week and maybe insanity to four but that still sounds like a lot of cardio. Well, thanks again for your help. I get it now.

You could definitely get by with 1 upper body day, 1 lower body day, and 1 total body day if that's what you'd prefer.

And the lower intensity cardio is the stuff that isn't going to use up a lot of 'fuel' (not to be confused with calories... I mean recuperative fuel). So in theory, you can do this more frequently. Assuming it's not marathon level stuff, you can do some jogging (steady state, tempo runs, farteks or whatever you like) pretty much every day. Though I do like one day of complete rest. If I had to throw out a number... I'd say 3-5 days per week.

Now if you're also hooked on this high intensity conditioning stuff... I'd definitely limit that to 2 days per week. Remember, you're dieting. Which means you're recuperative abilities are compromised. There's less food and nutrients coming in the door to effect recovery.

So maybe 3 days of the lower intensity cardio and 2 days of the higher intensity stuff.

OneBryteSmile

You could definitely get by with 1 upper body day, 1 lower body day, and 1 total body day if that's what you'd prefer.

And the lower intensity cardio is the stuff that isn't going to use up a lot of 'fuel' (not to be confused with calories... I mean recuperative fuel). So in theory, you can do this more frequently. Assuming it's not marathon level stuff, you can do some jogging (steady state, tempo runs, farteks or whatever you like) pretty much every day. Though I do like one day of complete rest. If I had to throw out a number... I'd say 3-5 days per week.

Now if you're also hooked on this high intensity conditioning stuff... I'd definitely limit that to 2 days per week. Remember, you're dieting. Which means you're recuperative abilities are compromised. There's less food and nutrients coming in the door to effect recovery.

So maybe 3 days of the lower intensity cardio and 2 days of the higher intensity stuff.

Thanks stroutman!!! :flowerforyou:

cheri0627

I somehow missed this thread all weekend. I'm glad it showed up because it was definitely a great read.

I love my strength work. The one that has caused the biggest improvement in what I can and can't do has been Olympic weightlifting. I've been doing it for a little less than three months one day a week, and it has made huge differences in my flexibility, stamina and strength.

crisanderson27

I don't know much about insanity... but assuming it's high intensity circuits... I'd say that's way too much work.

More importantly though... what are your goals. There are no right/wrong ways to structure things without taking context into consideration.

Insanity is high intensity, extreme cardio. It's as its name says, it's insane. That combined with running has been brutal but I run in the morning and do insanity in the evening so it hasn't been too difficult. Now with adding in more strength, yea it could get brutal. My goal is to get down to a healthy weight (whatever that may be but currently aiming for about 140-145 but that is subject to change - I currently weigh 171). I also want to build lean muscle and tone - don't want to be "skinny fat". I still want to look feminine but strong. Think Beyonce. I'm a very curvy girl and that won't go away so I'm not trying to be skinny or look like that zuzanna girl that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Thanks

Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!

Look, it's like this...

You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.

I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.

It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.

To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.

1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.

2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.

3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.

But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.

But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.

You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.

I view things very simple.

- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).

- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).

- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.

- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.

- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.

- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.

- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.

That's it.

I nominate this for post of the year.

My girlfriend is slowly starting to connect that less is more in this scenario. She is the full on kettlebell and heavy weight, hit it hard and don't stop six days a week type...and she is super jealous of my 3 day a week, < 1hr a day workout routine...and the results of it. She blames it on me being male lol.

I can't wait for her to read this .

katapple

very informative! thanks Stroutman, this has been helpful for me as I am a high intensity cardio junkie trying to reform myself. I'm currently training for half and full marathons but working on keeping my heart rate lower than I normally would, it's amazing how much better I feel when my HR stays below 160 on a 10 mile run when last year I would easily push 175 for an average.

Excited to up my weight training after the races and hopefully get my body where I want it to be

Lizzy_Sunflower

good info... thanks

:drinker:

questionablemethods

Well that's good to hear. Curves are good where I come from!

Look, it's like this...

You want to gently nudge the body into dropping fat and adding muscle. It should be a smooth and relatively easy process. It isn't always, but that's the idea. That starve and train to death approach is the metaphorical equivalent of taking a jackhammer to it in the middle of an earthquake.

I'm not sure people really understand how profoundly the body reacts to stress, and how it responds. When you chronically diet and jack up energy output, yes there's an interval where you do ok. But keep it up too long and you crash. We need to forget about this whole 'beating your body into submission' mentality that seems to be floating around.

It seems to be ingrained in our culture - building a good body has to hurt.... more is better... harder is better... blah blah blah. It's just not true. And this mentality is ONE of the variables that feeds the yo-yo dieting phenomenon you see so many people subscribing too. Because there is real physiological mechanisms at play "under the hood" when you over stress the body. Like I said above... it can work to a point... but then you crash.

To put it in very understandable terms... you only have so much 'fuel' to use. Once you run out of it, you can run on fumes for a bit... but then you stall out. Knowing this... you MUST chose your fuel use wisely. Make a hierarchy of fuel expenses that mean the most in relation to your goal.

1. You want fat loss... so obviously a calorie deficit is required. And a calorie deficit is a form of stress... so that's one fuel use.

2. You want more than simply fat loss... you want to look good while doing it. So you know you need to do what you can to maintain lean body mass. So second in line on the hierarchy would be strength training. In your case... 2 days per week of full body training would likely be ideal.

3. After that... you'll have some fuel left for cardio/conditioning. Numbers 1 and 2 above are really all that you *need* for attaining your goal. By eating less than your body needs you'll lose fat. By lifting weights correctly, you'll maintain muscle. But the cardio/conditioning will allow for you to a) improve other health/performance metrics and b) maintain a calorie deficit more easily.

But you don't need inordinate amounts of it. At all. And this is where a lot of people tend to screw up. Call it cardio craziness or whatever... but people love to over do it on the cardio or circuit training front. I'm guessing it's because it provides immediate feedback that lets you know you're doing work - jacked up heart rate, sweating, burning in the muscles, etc.

But we need to learn to be more selective with 'doing work.' It needs to match the changes we're trying to derive in our bodies.

You can't just brute-force the weight off. When you do too much, You start cutting off and screwing up the regulatory systems with that kind of crazy dieting and exercise. Having fat come off is the LAST thing you're body is after when it's just fighting to stay alive. No, people who do too much aren't on the verge of death. But our body's regulatory systems are very sensitive and complex... and when you back it into a corner by eating too little and exercising too much (disregarding energy availability) some annoying things can happen.

I view things very simple.

- Lift weights 2-4 times per week (occasionally more, but we're talking a baseline starting point, not what I'd use in someone that's built up over time).

- Split, program design, and other such trivia is largely irrelevant, so long as it's designed intelligently and each of the big groups is getting hit at least twice in a given 7-day period (again, a starting point, not an immutable law).

- Emphasize basic exercises, with some accessory isolation-type work thrown in as individual needs dictate. This means your squats, deadlifts, pulls, presses, etc, are the mainstays.

- Focus on using heavy loads, which means typically the use of reps in the 5-10 range. Sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter, but again as a generic baseline that's where to put your foundation.

- Metabolic conditioning-type work, which includes aerobic and anaerobic (interval) types of cardio, is at best an accessory to dieting. It works as a calorie sink, and improved work capacity is always a good thing, but it's not the make or break.

- Focus on overall management of fatigue and recovery. This is VERY critical on a diet.

- Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew partitioning in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.

That's it.

I nominate this for post of the year.

My girlfriend is slowly starting to connect that less is more in this scenario. She is the full on kettlebell and heavy weight, hit it hard and don't stop six days a week type...and she is super jealous of my 3 day a week, < 1hr a day workout routine...and the results of it. She blames it on me being male lol.

I can't wait for her to read this .

I second that nomination. I really like how Mark Sisson breaks down his plan:

1) Move frequently at a slow pace -- walking, hiking, cycling, 55-75% max heart rate, 2-5 hrs/week -- he emphasizes just being active doing fun, recreational stuff that you like

2) Lift heavy things -- brief, intense sessions of full-body functional movements 1-3 times/week -- he emphasizes 5 basic bodyweight exercises with progression to make them more difficult and says you can add weight as needed (plank, pullup, pushup, squat and press)

3) Sprint - all out, max effort for less than 10 minutes, once every 7-10 days (this is drastically different than what the Insanity program is!)

The rest (of being strong and lean), he says, is really about diet, getting good amounts of sleep, keeping stress levels low, etc.

He's goes into more detail in his eBook, which is free on his website, if anyone is interested: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-fitness/

carmenstop1

Bump for my topics~

Funkysuelee

I agree as well i can literally see the difference in my body morphing into the body that i want when i do weight training and This post is great. i was in such a cuffufle about weather or not i should be lifting so much weights but It makes sense to gain muscle as you lose weight as it will burn fat at a faster rate.... another point is that i was scared of bulking up but the amount of effort people put into bulking up is no where near enough what i do to bulk up like that.... so thanks for this thread it's awsome. I am going to continue to increase my weights.....

lennykat

bump for later as well.

I LOATHE, HATE, CRY OVER IT.....cardio.

I learned just in the past two weeks that killing myself with cardio isn't doing anythying but making me HATE working out. It apparently was having a detrimental effect on my fat loss.

With my new routine... I strength train 3x a week with just 20 minutes of the elliptical thrown in split uup between the weight sessions. My trainer told me that the key to all of this is actually enjoy exercising so that it will be a sustainable part of my life.

My trainer has introduced me to a different kind of cardio that I adore-- battling ropes. I've mentioned it here before. It's GREAT at getting the heart rate up and a good workout for upper body as well.

For someone coming off of knee lateral releases-- this form of non impact cardio is making a HUGE difference.

I also lift heavy and LOVIN' it~!

stroutman81

I've battling ropes at my gym as well... they're a great tool for conditioning. For general conditioning... I'm more inclined to do circuits with my clients than straight up "cardio" where you're on the treadmill, bike, elliptical or whatever. I opt for the circuits simply because my clients tend to enjoy them so much more.

I trained a guy this morning and we did 4 rounds of:

battling ropes - 40 seconds
jump rope - 60 seconds
kettlebell swings - 40 seconds
assisted pullups - to failure or 30 seconds
med ball squat to slams - 40 seconds
prowler push - 30 yards

20 minute workout that the client loved. If I had told him he'd be on the treadmill this morning, he likely wouldn't have come. Granted, I've used the treadmill and similar devices plenty. My point is... people get tunnel vision where they see the only way of going about conditioning is via traditional means. And you're right... it can lead to staleness.

reyna99

Bumping for later and for others, because I know its a good read!
thanks Steve!!

gerbies

Maybe I missed this, so I apologize for asking, but what about for obese people...who have 100+ lbs to lose...do you still recommend this approach? Or do you recommend the strength training, plus the additional cardio?

stroutman81

Maybe I missed this, so I apologize for asking, but what about for obese people...who have 100+ lbs to lose...do you still recommend this approach? Or do you recommend the strength training, plus the additional cardio?

This is an excellent question.

First, let me state that I generally always suggest a combination of strength training and conditioning/cardio regardless of goals. That said, with obese folks I'm more inclined to focus on reduced loads and continuous movement. Put differently, I'm not as concerned with the amount of weight lifted as I am with increasing the amount of calories expended.

For that reason, in this case I'd typically suggest some form of circuit training for the "strength" component of the programming. Lyle McDonald and I discussed this very topic in an interview a couple of years ago. You can check that out here:

http://body-improvements.com/articles/interviews/lyle-mcdonald-interview/

Check out the 4th question down.

crisanderson27

Cyclingdiva....this:



Rocks.

_gwen

+1

rhan90

Because each human body is so very different from every other human body?

I don't require you to follow my line of thinking. I don't even require that I comprehend yours. It sounds like you think I'm trying to force something on you...which would not only be futile on my end, this being the internet after all, but would also be a silly thing for you to believe...well, this being the internet and all lol.

Enjoy your cardio...and if it makes you happy, by all means, I am happy for you! Just be aware that there might be better ways to go about things...and don't be offended when people post threads trying to help you and others like you out by saying so. No one required you to reply...but by doing so, in a thread that clearly runs so counter to your stated beliefs...you most definitely opened yourself up for rebuttal.

That too...is a reality of the internet.

Edited to add:

If a woman lifts weights like a man and take things like a man, she will bulk like a man.

This is completely false.

I stand on what I have said. This is the internet and everyone needs to be true to their opinion.

There is a difference between an opinion and actual science. Science shows that men have very different hormone levels in their body compared to women. Hormones play a huge role in making men look like men, and women like women. Unless you work hard to overcome these factors and others (as a woman), you're simply not going to 'bulk like a man'.

If you don't want to strength train, then that's fine No one is going to make you. This board is about sharing information, including advice and politely correcting inaccuracies such as your belief that women will bulk like men if they lift like men. Good day.