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Natural food better than vaccinations?
Replies
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Anyone?
Not to be an *kitten*... but are we all talking about weight loss related stuff? I think this thread is getting really far away from the original intentions and is turning into a heated argument.
Nothing side A will say to Side B will change their minds or vice versa.0 -
When my husband and I were trying to conceive I was offered the h1n1. I declined since I never took flu shots. A few months later I found out I was pregnant. A few weeks after that I ended up in the hospital with h1n1 and the doctor telling me there was a strong chance I was losing the baby. Thank god I didn't. That was a wake up and more for me. I am a scientist. I worked in vaccine development for Wyeth which manufactures the polio vaccine. I am not afraid of vaccines but I never took them as seriously as I do now.
I can promise you I would rather have an autistic son than a dead one. But again..vaccines do not cause autism. Unless your child can not receive vaccines there is no reason not to receive them.
Sorry for your experience and scare with H1N1. I was pregnant and the same time and got "fired" from my doctor for refusing the Flu Vax as well as the H1N1 vax. However your statement that "Unless your child can not receive vaccines there is no reason not to receive them" is simply wrong. As a parent we each of the choice and for some of us there are thousands of reasons why our children shouldn't be vaccinated. If there was never a reported reaction to a vaccination than your statement may stand to be true but that isn't reality.
I can not vaccinate my first child because of his seizures. I choose not to vaccinate my second child as the risk of reaction to a vaccination is one I am not willing to take. And before people go crazy defending vaccinations and throw up Polio & SmallPox you have to understand I have researched and read every article I have ever found or been linked too and I understand how devastating Small Pox & Polio were and could be today. I wish that each person that told me to vaccinate would read through all the articles that tell of reactions to vaccinations. Please understand that while you support your vaccination arguement with statistics/articles/studies etc. I can do the same for my beliefs.
And while some believe articles www.thinktwice.com are just "propaganda" due to the fact they are published on a anti-vax website I have to argue with you about articles published/released by the CDC (and other organizations) as they benefit from the use of vaccinations therefore there is no way I can believe they accurately represent both sides of the vaccination arguement.
Your children are relatively safe from those diseases even without the vaccinations because the REST OF US vaccinate our children against them.
You're welcome.
I do not believe you vaccinating your child protects my child in anyway. If your vaccination can not even protect your child 100% how is it going to protect my child at all ? If anything I would believe that your vaccinated child would be a threat to my child as they are known carriers of diseases. So, No I do not thank you for vaccinating your child !
Well, then, PLEASE explain to me how 60-70 years ago, children (and adults) were dying in droves from these illnesses, or some being crippled or maimed for life and now they've been more or less erradicated in this country? Did people just suddenly develop immunity to them?
Which disease ?
I have come across the same information numerous times and I have thousands of articles saved on my computer and I am going through them to find the one's that discuss it.
Between 1900 and 1920 the rate of death from infectious disease dropped. This drop was before the introduction of childhood vaccinations. It also worth noting that after the spike around 1920 that the death rate started dropping again at nearly the same rate as before vaccination. Also take notice that death from non-infectious causes has risen since the introduction of vaccinations.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/281/1/61/F2.expansion
I think it is interesting to note the decrease in deaths from Typhoid & Dysentery. There is no vaccination for dysentery and people are not regularly vaccinated against typhus. No deaths from either disease has occured since 1960. The death rate from pnuemonia & influenza from 1970 to 1996 shows a increase although vaccinations were given for both. The Pnuemonia vaccines were introduced in 1977 & 1983. Diphtheria shows more decrease in deaths before 1920. The vaccine was introduced during the early 1920s and there is a spike in deaths from diphtheria at that same time. The rate of deaths decreased after that but no faster than it was decreasing before the introduction of the vaccine.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/281/1/61/F4.large.gif
Lets look at "evidence" from other countries that proves that vaccinations do not eliminate disease.
http://www.vaccinationdebate.net/web2.html
People with AIDS tend to die of things like pnemonia. Older people, as well. People live much longer and are therefore more susceptible to those diseases, which would increase the number of deaths. When you look at the statistics, do you also look at WHO is dying from those diseases? And what other factors play a part in those deaths?
My grandmother was a pediatrician and old enough to remember before vaccinations. She was a huge proponent of them. Three of my grandparents almost died from diseases that now are vaccinated against (two of them AFTER 1920, since they weren't even born yet before then). My 6th grade teachers was a polio survivor and spent the majority of his life in a wheelchair with horribly shriveled up legs because of it. Two of my aunts, my mother's best friend and a cousin are RNs (with BSs and MSs), my other cousin is a pharmacist and every one of them is a proponent of vaccinations.
Just because someone is making money off of something doesn't mean that something is bad. They're making money off of vaccines because they've seen what they have done for the health and wellness of the population and it was a good thing.
Typhoid and dysentary are diseases usually spread through poor hygienic practices. That's why people in the Western world don't die from them anymore.
Due to your "experience" with diseases you are in favor of vaccinations that is fine. I however am not in favor of vaccinations due to their negative side effects that happen more often than reported!
Have you ever know a child who died from SIDS ? SIDS has risen since the introduction of vaccinations furthermore a large number of infants who die from SIDS have been vaccinated within the last hours to days. While you believe that vaccinations have done our population a good thing I disagree respectfully I must add. Our country as some of the highest Infant Mortaility Rates yet our children are vaccinated the most. Infants die here more from "unexplained" causes.
I understand why the death rates decreased for Dysentery as well as Typhoid. We have better hygienic practices today and well as medicine therefore you can not accurately say that contagious disease deaths would not have decreased significiantly on their own.
Nope. I don't personally know anyone whose child has died from SIDS. I do know several people who were very negatively affected by NOT having the vaccinations, however (more than mentioned in my last post).
Unfortunately, you're relying very heavily on statistics without looking at what's behind those statistics and other factors that may play a part. Coincidence isn't evidence.
If you don't want to vaccinate your children, that's your decision. But nothing you've said has made me question my decision to vaccinate my daughter against horrific diseases that she, thankfully, never had to endure. and neither did I because of the same reasons.
And, again, you're welcome for my child being vaccinated so as not to spread the diseases you didn't vaccinate yours against.0 -
Thank you ! I totally agree that you will certainly not change my mind and I will not change your mind. I used smallpox just to show that people do live and have natural immunity to diseases without a vaccination.
I have two children and hope to have a few more and at this time I do not believe I will ever vaccinate any of them because the risks for my family outweigh any potential benefits. I still have not had anyone prove to me that being vaccinated is going to protect you from a disease in the event of an outbreak. I can understand giving Hepatitis B to children but I do not understand why it is mandated that it should be given to newborns. Also it has been stated that vaccine immunity does not last a lifetime so why should we assume a child vaccinated in early childhood against Hep.B is not going to "catch" Hep. B as an adult ? I dont think it is going to significantly decrease Hep.B is this country.
Anyway I agree that this discussion has gotten way off topic. I think it can be proven enough that nutrition plays a vital role in your health and someone who is "healthy" is going to fare better when hit by sickness however you will still get sick !0 -
Everything that has been showed to me to prove that vaccines ridded us of disease was based on statistics. There is no way to know that people today would be dying from smallpox if the vaccination hadn't been introduced. Statistics are important !
I dont understand how in today's world we can create vaccinations that are supposed to mimic ones natural immunity yet we can not figure out why babies die unexpectedly.
I am done arguing my side and I hope for your daughters sake that she doesn't suffer from the vaccinations that were injected into her body ! I still don't know how you can say you vaccinating is saving my child when I have proven that vaccinations FAIL.
The children in California who had pertussis for example ! 80% of them were fully vaccinated ... therefore more vaccinated children had pertussis than unvaccinated children ! ---- I realize I worded this incorrectly and I apologize !!
In order for me to be able to prove that vaccines do not work I would need to know more about the vaccination rates of the area affected by the Pertussis outbreak. However if 80% of the children who got pertussis were vaccinated fully than apparently the vaccination does not work ! I also feel strongly that the DPaT vaccination is one of the most harmful vaccinations given to children today. So in my opinion the risk from that vaccine outweighs any benefits. However I realize everyone has an opinion and I respect that.0 -
Yes, smallpox did offer survivors immunity. Wonderful immunity. "Survivors" of course being the up to 50% of people who contracted it and didn't die from it, those people who ended up often blind, scarred from head to toe, and infertile from having lived through it, after spreading it to their family and friends killing half of them. But they did have that natural immunity! God forbid it comes back (via warfare), I think anyone's smart money would be on the vaccination, if we can get our hands on it.
The reason those Europeans were so better prepared to handle the virus was precisely because it had already been killing so many of them for so long.
Please do read up on Smallpox, it's an amazing and terrifying tale.
eta: That's actually probably the best real life example of the herd's immunity, which you "don't believe in," so I hope you do take the opportunity to read up on that.0 -
Yes, smallpox did offer survivors immunity. Wonderful immunity. "Survivors" of course being the up to 50% of people who contracted it and didn't die from it, those people who ended up often blind, scarred from head to toe, and infertile from having lived through it, after spreading it to their family and friends killing half of them. But they did have that natural immunity! God forbid it comes back (via warfare), I think anyone's smart money would be on the vaccination, if we can get our hands on it.
The reason those Europeans were so better prepared to handle the virus was precisely because it had already been killing so many of them for so long.
Please do read up on Smallpox, it's an amazing and terrifying tale.
eta: That's actually probably the best real life example of the herd's immunity, which you "don't believe in," so I hope you do take the opportunity to read up on that.
I have read up on Small Pox and will continue to read any information placed in front of me. I was coming back to update my last post since I realized I worded something wrong.
With the pertussis outbreak i said 80% of the children were vaccinated which meant only 20% were unvaccinated however I realize in order to understand what that really means for the effectivenss of the vaccination I would need to know how many children go without vaccinations in that area. I am sorry I posted that before worded the way I did .. I am most defintly wrong in stating that in a matter that reflects vaccinations are not effective because I think in order for that to be proven I would defintly need to know the vaccination rate of that area. I am honestly not here to change anyones vaccination decision. I am trying to teach myself as much as I can about both sides so that I can make an informed decision.
I really do thank all of you who responded to my posts in a respectful manner.I appreciate the information that was presented before me and I have made notes and saved every link I was sent too. I really do want what is best for my children.I am sure most of you consider me a bad mom for not vaccinating my second child. If he were to catch a deadly disease and suffer serious complications I would feel awfu. I however have to live with knowing that I choose to allow a nurse to inject a toxic vaccine into my newborns body and because of my actions he will suffer with difficulties for the rest of his life. My son will never outgrow the damage done to him by that vaccination and that is something I am faced with everyday.
Also for the poster who recommended reading about the risk to siblings of someone who has had such a reaction I did pull out my vaccination inserts I have printed off and most of them state that any child with a family history of reaction as well as any child with a family history of seizures should not receive that vaccine.
Again I really do appreciate most information that was passed along to me !! And since I am constantly wanting to learn more if anyone else feels they have something I should know or read please dont hesistate to message me !! I will never be offended by anyone's attempts to pass along information. I do however take offense to anyone that calls me names so please do not message me if your only reason is to pick a fight with me or insult me.0 -
Mrs. Cullen.
Do you and your family drive in a car?
Let's say your drive is about 650 miles, if this is right -- http://tinyurl.com/2a7vahj
If you want the average probability of getting into an accident per mile driven, it's about 2008 accidents per billion miles driven
So, over 650 miles, that's 0.13% probability.
The math:
According to the study in the source, there are an average 45.8 injuries, 77.0 property damage-only accidents, and 78.0 unreported accidents per 100 million miles driven. So that's a total of 200.8 accidents per 100 million miles driven
The odds of not getting into an accident per mile are 1-(200.8/100,000,000)
The odds not getting into an accident over 650 miles are [1-(200.8/100,000,000)]^650 = 0.99869565
So the odds of getting into an accident on that same stretch are 1 - [1-(200.8/100,000,000)]^650 = 1 - 0.99869565 = 0.0013043499
which is about 0.13%
Do you buckle your children's safety belt? I mean... the risk of getting into an accident is only 0.13% so why bother?
Difference between my parenting and your parenting?
I buckle my children's seat belts. Even if the risk is 0.13%, I'll buckle her belt every single time.0 -
Mrs. Cullen.
Do you and your family drive in a car?
Let's say your drive is about 650 miles, if this is right -- http://tinyurl.com/2a7vahj
If you want the average probability of getting into an accident per mile driven, it's about 2008 accidents per billion miles driven
So, over 650 miles, that's 0.13% probability.
The math:
According to the study in the source, there are an average 45.8 injuries, 77.0 property damage-only accidents, and 78.0 unreported accidents per 100 million miles driven. So that's a total of 200.8 accidents per 100 million miles driven
The odds of not getting into an accident per mile are 1-(200.8/100,000,000)
The odds not getting into an accident over 650 miles are [1-(200.8/100,000,000)]^650 = 0.99869565
So the odds of getting into an accident on that same stretch are 1 - [1-(200.8/100,000,000)]^650 = 1 - 0.99869565 = 0.0013043499
which is about 0.13%
Do you buckle your children's safety belt? I mean... the risk of getting into an accident is only 0.13% so why bother?
Difference between my parenting and your parenting?
I buckle my children's seat belts. Even if the risk is 0.13%, I'll buckle her belt every single time.
My children are buckled into their carseats anytime they are in a vehicle. My 18month old is also still rear-facing which is the recommendation (until 2).My 4 year old was kept rear-facing until his 3rd birthday.
I see your logic and I could also throw those same numbers at you to explain my feelings on vaccinations. I am not willing to vaccinate my child because of the risk of an adverse reaction. I would rather take the risk of my son catching a disease that is possibly prevented by vaccine. I understand the risk I am taking because he could die or suffer permanent damage.
I know I am not going to change anyone's mind but let me see if I can make my feelings make sense :
Lets say I give my son all the recommended doses of the DTaP Vaccination and after each shot he suffers a high fever followed by seizures.However when he is about 6 our community suffers a pertussis outbreak and he catches pertussis. I will not talk about how much worse pertussis could be on him then because he already suffers from other underlying issues since I honestly dont know how pertussis would affect him. But at this point I have exposed my son to a very dangerous vaccination that causes him serious reactions each time for nothing because he still catches pertussis.
Its not an impossible scenario !
I just wanted to add that I hope that each of you parents who feel it is right to vaccinate also read information from the opposing side. I can not speak for everyone who chooses to not vaccinate but I know that I try to be as informed as possible which is why before every well-child checkup I not only re-read articles I have saved I also look for any new information that is available for either side.
I really recommend every parent look up www.iansvoice.org no matter which side you are on we should all hold our babies a little tighter because real risks exist in every decision we make.
http://www.naturalnews.com/032579_hepatitis_B_vaccines.html0 -
so give your kid some tylenol to reduce the minute chance he or she may have a fever.
There! I fixed it!0 -
WAIT! I WAS WRONG
Based on your reasoning, we should never give our children tylenol. After all....
"Acetaminophen causes three times as many cases of liver failure as all other drugs combined, [1] and is the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States,[2] accounting for 39% of cases"
Well.. that's ok I suppose. You could give them Advil to reduce their fever. WAIT I WAS WRONG
"In 2007, the manufacturer added an adverse effect warning to Advil's packaging and website informing consumers "[Advil] may cause stomach bleeding,"[3] after the FDA demanded changes"
Well... I wonder what type of medication commonly used today we could use that doesn't have any sort of risk associated with it...
Hmm... I can't think of any. Maybe we should all NOT have children so that we don't expose them to the risk of potential side effects from using life saving medication.
I guess we all better go on the pill.
OMG WAIT! That means I take the risk of having Venous thromboembolism (which can cause a massive stroke), Cancer (that sounds bad!), Weight Gain, Depression, Hypertension, and all sorts of other crazy risks.
BUT WAIT THERES MORE.
Having a BABY has higher risks of injury or death than taking the pill! [5]
[1]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E4D81130F933A1575AC0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2
[2]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/health/27awar.html?_r=1
[3]http://www.advilpm.com/faq.asp
[4] Blanco-Molina, A; Monreal, M (2010 Feb). "Venous thromboembolism in women taking hormonal contraceptives.". Expert review of cardiovascular therapy 8 (2): 211–5. doi:10.1586/erc.09.175. PMID 20136607.
[5] Crooks, Robert L. and Karla Baur (2005). Our Sexuality. Belmont, CA: Thomson Wadsworth. ISBN 0-534-65176-3.
Well.. I guess we all better go back to living in caves0 -
Ok that does it ! I am done with this thread apparently it is not only okay to inject TOXINS into your infants body it is also okay to drug them to cover up any symptons that may arise due to those toxins you injected ! That is just beyond anything I can consider normal.
If vaccinations cause no harm then there should be no need for a medicine before or after a vaccination. If you must dope your child up in order to vaccinate them then apparently something is wrong.
Not to mention that in my "scenario" my child still catches Pertussis which is extremely likely .. So lets dope our infants , inject them full of KNOWN TOXINS and then shrug our shoulders when the vaccine fails.
I truly am done with this thread . I will not be returning because I realize that none of you are even able to admit for one second that vaccinations do harm. I hope that your child does not suffer all through infancy only to catch the very disease you were trying to prevent however that seems to be likely.
I am disgusted that your suggestion is to just give tylenol. For one tylenol is not incredibly safe but that is for another thread ! For another tylenol will not prevent seizures in anyway it may reduce the fever but you will have to give it repeatedly for numerous days in the event of a true reaction and the child can still suffer seizures or other permanent brain damage. My son does suffer seizures thanks to a flipping vaccination and Tylenol when adminstered does absolutely nothing to prevent him from having a seizure !
Children DIE from vaccinations DAILY !! Just because your child did not die does not mean it doesn't happen it is a real danger. I understand catching a disease is a real danger as well but there is no way in HELL I am going to take on both risks which is what every vaccinating parent chooses to do.
Vaccines FAIL Miserably ! That has been proven and I am afraid it will continue to be proven. I did not come on this thread to change anyone's mind I politely listened to every arguement. I didn't even get mad when I was told I was being irresponsible , when I was called a moron or when I was told I was a bad mom for not having a child that will eat a full course balance diet every day. I however am extremely mad that any parent feels that it is "normal" to adminster a medicine before or after a vaccine.
You continue to take your children to get vaccinated. You continue to watch your children suffer from the pain of the toxins you are allowing to enter their body. I am just going to have to pass and you can call me stupid or irresponsible or any other combination of names that you want too but I can guarantee you my child will never DIE from a vaccination ... you can't say the same for your child!0 -
WAIT! I WAS WRONG
Based on your reasoning, we should never give our children tylenol. After all....
"Acetaminophen causes three times as many cases of liver failure as all other drugs combined, [1] and is the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States,[2] accounting for 39% of cases"
Well.. that's ok I suppose. You could give them Advil to reduce their fever. WAIT I WAS WRONG
"In 2007, the manufacturer added an adverse effect warning to Advil's packaging and website informing consumers "[Advil] may cause stomach bleeding,"[3] after the FDA demanded changes"
Well... I wonder what type of medication commonly used today we could use that doesn't have any sort of risk associated with it...
Hmm... I can't think of any. Maybe we should all NOT have children so that we don't expose them to the risk of potential side effects from using life saving medication.
I guess we all better go on the pill.
OMG WAIT! That means I take the risk of having Venous thromboembolism (which can cause a massive stroke), Cancer (that sounds bad!), Weight Gain, Depression, Hypertension, and all sorts of other crazy risks.
BUT WAIT THERES MORE.
Having a BABY has higher risks of injury or death than taking the pill! [5]
[1]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E4D81130F933A1575AC0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2
[2]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/health/27awar.html?_r=1
[3]http://www.advilpm.com/faq.asp
[4] Blanco-Molina, A; Monreal, M (2010 Feb). "Venous thromboembolism in women taking hormonal contraceptives.". Expert review of cardiovascular therapy 8 (2): 211–5. doi:10.1586/erc.09.175. PMID 20136607.
[5] Crooks, Robert L. and Karla Baur (2005). Our Sexuality. Belmont, CA: Thomson Wadsworth. ISBN 0-534-65176-3.
Well.. I guess we all better go back to living in caves
You can point out all the risks associated with everything but vaccinations ! I personally do not medicate my children with Advil or Tylenol unless there is a medical need - to date my 18month old has NEVER been adminstered either one! I also am not on birth control ... and I guess birth is risky so I agree you should stop having babies
Oh and just to be clear a FEVER is not a sympton that needs treating in healthy children it is a normal part of the bodies immune system !0 -
This thread should be closed for stupidity. gaaah ///0
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This thread should be closed for stupidity. gaaah ///
Agreed!!!0 -
those relying on nutrition to keep their families safe rather than vaccination is, well, what it it is. fine, but seriously, how many people in the western world are going to eat the nutrition required to keep them healthy over the long term, and what happens when the kids leave home and live on whatever they decide is good when they don't have mummy feeding them nutritious healthy meals? all those illnesses aren't restricted to kids who have their mums feeding them right to keep them healthy.
what happens when they leave home and decide to go crazy eating what they want and drinking too much alcohol, perhaps dabbling in drugs and generally not looking after themselve well (which a large percentage of people in their 20's do). then will they all get sick?
it's your choice to not vaccinate your kids, but the last thing i need is more illnesses to deal with, so i'll immunise where i can to avoid a heap of stuff, and there is definitely a pile of other illnesses that will be on the table for me and my family to have to deal with over our lifetimes, there is no shortage of things we can't immunise against.0 -
Are you up to date on your vaccinations ?
Will your child come into contact with any adult who is not up to date on vaccinations?
How would you feel as a parent if you were forced to breastfeed your child ? It has been proven over and over that breastmilk is best for babies however many parents choose to use formula. What if your insurance company made you pay more if you chose not to breastfeed ?
Yes, I am up to date on my vaccinations. At some point they will come in contact with an adult who is not up to date.
Breastmilk has been proven best for babies but it has not been even suggested that it prevents any life threatening disease. That is the difference. Vaccines (most with 99% success rates) prevent debilitating diseases.0 -
Also...I cannot scream this enough...CORRELATION =/= CAUSATION!!!! So much of the pseudoscience out there is based on (often weak) correlation. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *bashes head into wall*
This.
Also, the reason I dislike the internet. Too easy to post faulty data/studies and too many gullible people researching by reading the first google article that comes up.0 -
Our child is vaccinated, does not have Autism and holy ****, he's healthy too!? How is that possible!?
He even plays in the toilet! Wow, that is incredible. lol0 -
While true, if a child that has no vaccinations gets ill, the school can hold them out till the child gets a full clearance from a verifiable medical source.While I am appreciating the read and all the arguements for and against. . . . This information is not accurate. . your kids can go to school without being immunized. . all you have to do is sign a waver form. . . . Just because a child is not immunized does not mean that they can withhold education from that child. . .
as is the case with any child. This is just enforced more with unvaxed kids. Any kid who is out sick can be required to produce a doc note clearing the child to re-enter the school setting.0 -
Breastfeeding makes healthier infants and they grow into healthy adults and teenagers. Breastfeeding alone can reduce the risk of SIDS , Childhood Cancer , Obesity , Allergies and Asthma.Teenagers and adults that were breastfeed suffer less from Type 1 & Type 2 diabetes as well as high chlosterol. Mothers that breastfeed develop some protection against breast and ovarian cancer. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends you breastfeed for atleast six months.
HOLY COW! This is also correlation not causation. There are hundereds of different factors that can contribute to these facts. Income level, focus on health as a whole, class.0
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