low carb or not?

questionablemethods

I say yes! People who don't admit that they got fat because they ate too much and exercised too little are just lying to either themselves and/or everyone else. Whether you say "carbs make me want to eat more" or "fat makes me want to eat more" or "XXXX makes me want to eat more", the fact is that nothing other than your own gluttony and sloth actually made you eat more. Just because you find food tasty and want more does not make the food guilty when you get fat. You ate it. You did it. You are guilty.

Why is there a growing number of obese infants? Also gluttony and sloth?

Yes. Gluttony and sloth of the parent(s). That's where the cycle begins.

I don't quite understand how that works with a 6-month-old.

Acg67

They became obese by accumulating fat. His hypothesis is that this fat accumulation is directly affected by the body's insulin production. I think it is slightly more complicated that than as I think there are other hormones which effect this fat accumulation but I believe like him that insulin is the primary one to be concerned with and think that his hypothesis is worth testing.

and did this accumulation of fat happen in a consistent caloric deficit or surplus?

Obviously in a consistent surplus. But why are they constantly eating at surplus? Simple gluttony and sloth?

so they were overeating before they were obese, correct? therefore overeating is the cause of obesity and not a symptom of

questionablemethods

They became obese by accumulating fat. His hypothesis is that this fat accumulation is directly affected by the body's insulin production. I think it is slightly more complicated that than as I think there are other hormones which effect this fat accumulation but I believe like him that insulin is the primary one to be concerned with and think that his hypothesis is worth testing.

and did this accumulation of fat happen in a consistent caloric deficit or surplus?

Obviously in a consistent surplus. But why are they constantly eating at surplus? Simple gluttony and sloth?

so they were overeating before they were obese, correct? therefore overeating is the cause of obesity and not a symptom of

Children getting taller are also "overeating" in that they are taking in more than they need to maintain their current state. Is overeating the cause normal growth in height?

LowCarbForLife

They became obese by accumulating fat. His hypothesis is that this fat accumulation is directly affected by the body's insulin production. I think it is slightly more complicated that than as I think there are other hormones which effect this fat accumulation but I believe like him that insulin is the primary one to be concerned with and think that his hypothesis is worth testing.

and did this accumulation of fat happen in a consistent caloric deficit or surplus?

The answer to that question like most complex questions is, "it depends", because in my opinion all calories are not equal. Many people like to bring up the first law of thermodynamics to support the idea that 'a calorie is a calorie', but they seem to conveniently omit discussion of the second law. When a transformation of matter occurs energy is lost but the rate of loss is not a constant. Calories from different sources are processed differently by the body, some requiring more energy. Then as I mentioned earlier there is quite a bit of variance in the effect certain foods have on the release of various hormones which impact fat accumulation, most notably insulin and glucagon.

While I think this discussion has been reasonably civil and productive, I think I'm done with it. I am obviously not going to convince you of anything based on your signature and this is taking away too much time from other things that need more of my attention.

bcattoes

I say yes! People who don't admit that they got fat because they ate too much and exercised too little are just lying to either themselves and/or everyone else. Whether you say "carbs make me want to eat more" or "fat makes me want to eat more" or "XXXX makes me want to eat more", the fact is that nothing other than your own gluttony and sloth actually made you eat more. Just because you find food tasty and want more does not make the food guilty when you get fat. You ate it. You did it. You are guilty.

Why is there a growing number of obese infants? Also gluttony and sloth?

Yes. Gluttony and sloth of the parent(s). That's where the cycle begins.

I don't quite understand how that works with a 6-month-old.

Mom overeats and gives birth to an obese baby. Baby cries so mom inserts bottle or breast whether or not it should be time for baby to be hungry.

What is your explanation? .

questionablemethods

I say yes! People who don't admit that they got fat because they ate too much and exercised too little are just lying to either themselves and/or everyone else. Whether you say "carbs make me want to eat more" or "fat makes me want to eat more" or "XXXX makes me want to eat more", the fact is that nothing other than your own gluttony and sloth actually made you eat more. Just because you find food tasty and want more does not make the food guilty when you get fat. You ate it. You did it. You are guilty.

Why is there a growing number of obese infants? Also gluttony and sloth?

Yes. Gluttony and sloth of the parent(s). That's where the cycle begins.

I don't quite understand how that works with a 6-month-old.

Mom overeats and gives birth to an obese baby. Baby cries so mom inserts bottle or breast whether or not it should be time for baby to be hungry.

What is your explanation? .

Actually, I recently looked up birth stats because I thought babies were being born larger too. That doesn't seem to be the case from the stats I found (can't recall the source). I am assuming that a baby eating what it is "supposed" to can self-regulate. Cries when it is hungry, eats until it has had enough, grows normally. That's how it has always worked, right? No one is calorie counting for their infant. The obese babies tend to be formula fed. They aren't stopping when they are have had an adequate amount, like breastfed babies do.

Moreover, if they do have an excess of calories for their needs, their metabolisms should rise or they should fidget or something more to burn off the excess, right? That's what thermodynamics tells us must happen.

bcattoes

I say yes! People who don't admit that they got fat because they ate too much and exercised too little are just lying to either themselves and/or everyone else. Whether you say "carbs make me want to eat more" or "fat makes me want to eat more" or "XXXX makes me want to eat more", the fact is that nothing other than your own gluttony and sloth actually made you eat more. Just because you find food tasty and want more does not make the food guilty when you get fat. You ate it. You did it. You are guilty.

Why is there a growing number of obese infants? Also gluttony and sloth?

Yes. Gluttony and sloth of the parent(s). That's where the cycle begins.

I don't quite understand how that works with a 6-month-old.

Mom overeats and gives birth to an obese baby. Baby cries so mom inserts bottle or breast whether or not it should be time for baby to be hungry.

What is your explanation? .

Actually, I recently looked up birth stats because I thought babies were being born larger too. That doesn't seem to be the case from the stats I found (can't recall the source). I am assuming that a baby eating what it is "supposed" to can self-regulate. Cries when it is hungry, eats until it has had enough, grows normally. That's how it has always worked, right? No one is calorie counting for their infant. The obese babies tend to be formula fed. They aren't stopping when they are have had an adequate amount, like breastfed babies do.

Moreover, if they do have an excess of calories for their needs, their metabolisms should rise or they should fidget or something more to burn off the excess, right? That's what thermodynamics tells us must happen.

The flaw with that theory is that there should have been much more obese babies in the past, because there were many more babies fed formula in the past. The push to return to breast feeding didn't happen until the late 70's early 80's. But in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and probably before) obese infants and children were rare.

questionablemethods

The flaw with that theory is that there should have been much more obese babies in the past, because there were many more babies fed formula in the past. The push to return to breast feeding didn't happen until the late 70's early 80's. But in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and probably before) obese infants and children were rare.

Good point. Is formula exactly the same as it was then?

bcattoes

The flaw with that theory is that there should have been much more obese babies in the past, because there were many more babies fed formula in the past. The push to return to breast feeding didn't happen until the late 70's early 80's. But in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and probably before) obese infants and children were rare.

Good point. Is formula exactly the same as it was then?

It's improved nutritionally over the years, I'm sure (added vitamins, iron, etc.). I think it was closer to plain milk or light cream in the past.

Acg67

Children getting taller are also "overeating" in that they are taking in more than they need to maintain their current state. Is overeating the cause normal growth in height?

no it is not, but comparing a growing child to an adult is two totally different things and you're talking about "normal" growth not excessive growth, like excessive fat accumulation. i do see the point you're trying to make though

"Calories from different sources are processed differently by the body, some requiring more energy. Then as I mentioned earlier there is quite a bit of variance in the effect certain foods have on the release of various hormones which impact fat accumulation, most notably insulin and glucagon. "

I don't disagree with that statement (different TEFs of the macors etc), but still to single out CHO as reason why people get fat, well i think that is a large leap of faith to make

questionablemethods

The flaw with that theory is that there should have been much more obese babies in the past, because there were many more babies fed formula in the past. The push to return to breast feeding didn't happen until the late 70's early 80's. But in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and probably before) obese infants and children were rare.

Good point. Is formula exactly the same as it was then?

It's improved nutritionally over the years, I'm sure (added vitamins, iron, etc.). I think it was closer to plain milk or light cream in the past.

Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to even find consistent information about what makes up breast milk. Regardless, it still doesn't explain why the babies are storing the excess calories fat as opposed to burning it off. The first law of thermodynamics tells us the latter must happen.

It also doesn't tell us why animals when fed what they are "supposed" to be eating, regulate their bodyweight just fine. I can leave giant bowls of raw meat for my cat and he doesn't gorge himself and become obese. I don't need to control his intake or put him on a treadmill and force him to run. This is not to say that there aren't obese house cats out there, but what food are they getting obese on?

bcattoes

The flaw with that theory is that there should have been much more obese babies in the past, because there were many more babies fed formula in the past. The push to return to breast feeding didn't happen until the late 70's early 80's. But in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and probably before) obese infants and children were rare.

Good point. Is formula exactly the same as it was then?

It's improved nutritionally over the years, I'm sure (added vitamins, iron, etc.). I think it was closer to plain milk or light cream in the past.

Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to even find consistent information about what makes up breast milk. Regardless, it still doesn't explain why the babies are storing the excess calories fat as opposed to burning it off. The first law of thermodynamics tells us the latter must happen.

It also doesn't tell us why animals when fed what they are "supposed" to be eating, regulate their bodyweight just fine. I can leave giant bowls of raw meat for my cat and he doesn't gorge himself and become obese. I don't need to control his intake or put him on a treadmill and force him to run. This is not to say that there aren't obese house cats out there, but what food are they getting obese on?

There are fat horses, pigs, dogs, cats, most anything that we domesticate and overfeed. In the wild they have to work for it. If we had to work for our food we probably wouldn't be fat either.

questionablemethods

Children getting taller are also "overeating" in that they are taking in more than they need to maintain their current state. Is overeating the cause normal growth in height?

no it is not, but comparing a growing child to an adult is two totally different things and you're talking about "normal" growth not excessive growth, like excessive fat accumulation. i do see the point you're trying to make though

It's not my point, it is Taubes's point. The same point can be made (and I've posted this before), with two 8-year-old children who go into a doctor's office. One child is 6 feet tall and 180 lbs and the doctor immediately recognizes that he probably has a tumor affecting his pituitary and orders tests, etc.

The second child is 4 feet tall and 180 lbs and the doctor tells his mom to "feed him less" and "make him exercise."

Both children have been "overeating" in terms of what they need for normal growth but in the first case a hormonal imbalance is immediately recognized as the cause. In the second case it is gluttony and sloth.

I don't stand being signaling out carbohydrates. I don't know enough of the biochemistry. But again, I'd like to see a study showing weight gain rates with long-term, ad libitum low-carb versus high-carb.

questionablemethods

There are fat horses, pigs, dogs, cats, most anything that we domesticate and overfeed. In the wild they have to work for it. If we had to work for our food we probably wouldn't be fat either.

Overfeed with what? Food they aren't adapted to eat. My cat doesn't have to work for the raw meat and doesn't gorge on it.

Again, thermodynamics tells us that if we "overfeed" an animal, that animal should burn off the excess. The equation needs to be balanced. If I were to force-feed my cat more meat that it needs, you can sure as heck bet he's going to either be more active or eat less over the next day or two, despite there being a constant source of food.

bcattoes

There are fat horses, pigs, dogs, cats, most anything that we domesticate and overfeed. In the wild they have to work for it. If we had to work for our food we probably wouldn't be fat either.

Overfeed with what? Food they aren't adapted to eat. My cat doesn't have to work for the raw meat and doesn't gorge on it.

Again, thermodynamics tells us that if we "overfeed" an animal, that animal should burn off the excess. The equation needs to be balanced. If I were to force-feed my cat more meat that it needs, you can sure as heck bet he's going to either be more active or eat less over the next day or two, despite there being a constant source of food.

If I gave my dog enough meat to fill her up. She'd beg for more. And she'd eat it. This would continue until she was sure I wasn't giving her anymore. Then she'd go curl up on couch or porch swing. She might get up if the cat from next door wandered into the yard, but after that she'd just lay back down. We live a rural area where she's free to roam, but she's pretty lazy most of the time. And a little overweight, though she wasn't when she was younger.

I'm not sure where all this is going though. What does this have to do with carbs and fat babies?

questionablemethods

There are fat horses, pigs, dogs, cats, most anything that we domesticate and overfeed. In the wild they have to work for it. If we had to work for our food we probably wouldn't be fat either.

Overfeed with what? Food they aren't adapted to eat. My cat doesn't have to work for the raw meat and doesn't gorge on it.

Again, thermodynamics tells us that if we "overfeed" an animal, that animal should burn off the excess. The equation needs to be balanced. If I were to force-feed my cat more meat that it needs, you can sure as heck bet he's going to either be more active or eat less over the next day or two, despite there being a constant source of food.

If I gave my dog enough meat to fill her up. She'd beg for more. And she'd eat it. This would continue until she was sure I wasn't giving her anymore. Then she'd go curl up on couch or porch swing. She might get up if the cat from next door wandered into the yard, but after that she'd just lay back down. We live a rural area where she's free to roam, but she's pretty lazy most of the time. And a little overweight, though she wasn't when she was younger.

I'm not sure where all this is going though. What does this have to do with carbs and fat babies?

I don't know, this has gotten way off track. The point being, why are we storing excessive amounts of fat instead of burning off the excess energy? The first law of thermodynamics must apply for maintaining our weight, too.

Acg67

Children getting taller are also "overeating" in that they are taking in more than they need to maintain their current state. Is overeating the cause normal growth in height?

no it is not, but comparing a growing child to an adult is two totally different things and you're talking about "normal" growth not excessive growth, like excessive fat accumulation. i do see the point you're trying to make though

It's not my point, it is Taubes's point. The same point can be made (and I've posted this before), with two 8-year-old children who go into a doctor's office. One child is 6 feet tall and 180 lbs and the doctor immediately recognizes that he probably has a tumor affecting his pituitary and orders tests, etc.

The second child is 4 feet tall and 180 lbs and the doctor tells his mom to "feed him less" and "make him exercise."

Both children have been "overeating" in terms of what they need for normal growth but in the first case a hormonal imbalance is immediately recognized as the cause. In the second case it is gluttony and sloth.

I don't stand being signaling out carbohydrates. I don't know enough of the biochemistry. But again, I'd like to see a study showing weight gain rates with long-term, ad libitum low-carb versus high-carb.

here's the main difference, you can't control your growth, you can control your eating.

questionablemethods

here's the main difference, you can't control your growth, you can control your eating.

Both children were "overeating." The child with giantism could not have gained the weight (and height) without taking in more calories than needed to maintain (and more child than a normally growing 8-year-old).

Acg67

here's the main difference, you can't control your growth, you can control your eating.

Both children were "overeating." The child with giantism could not have gained the weight (and height) without taking in more calories than needed to maintain (and more child than a normally growing 8-year-old).

but the weight is to support his growing frame and new mass, in the obese child that is not the case

questionablemethods

here's the main difference, you can't control your growth, you can control your eating.

Both children were "overeating." The child with giantism could not have gained the weight (and height) without taking in more calories than needed to maintain (and more child than a normally growing 8-year-old).

but the weight is to support his growing frame and new mass, in the obese child that is not the case

But his frame would not be growing without his "overeating."